Cockpit recorders for GA?

Mtns2Skies

Final Approach
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Mtns2Skies
With massive advancements in memory storage (solid state) why aren't there cockpit voice recorders... Or more importantly systems recorders in GA aircraft? I can't imagine the weight penalty would be significant, and cost would be next to nothing when one thinks about the cost of a new plane.
 
Why would I want to self-incriminate?

What is the next generation's fascination with letting everyone and having everyone know what it is they are doing at every second of the day.?
 
Why would I want to self-incriminate?

What is the next generation's fascination with letting everyone and having everyone know what it is they are doing at every second of the day.?

Well that escalated quickly.

I was thinking from a crash standpoint to advance the safety and engineering of GA
 
Well that escalated quickly.

I was thinking from a crash standpoint to advance the safety and engineering of GA

More gadgets != safer. Proper and recurrent training will make GA safer. If someone spins it in due to inadvertent IMC, it doesn't matter if the plane spun 3 times or 13 times. And knowing whether it was 3 or 13 won't help with a better design. What would have prevented that is better training.
 
Because:
1. Self-incrimination issue stated above,
2. Most systems in most GA have no data-out capability and nothing is standard
3. Voice recorder will be of limited use since lots of times it's a solo mission
4. Limited use since NTSB really does not get all that deep into small GA crashes.
5. Pretty much 90% of small GA crashes come to a few known causes.

Basically, it would be pointless and you are more than welcome to do it on your own. Making it a requirement would be very expensive.
 
I though people were already doing this with their go-pro cameras with four different camera angles.

Seriously though, as a single pilot operation, there is no reliable voice clues of what's going on in the cockpit, unlike a two pilot cockpit.
 
I though people were already doing this with their go-pro cameras with four different camera angles.

Seriously though, as a single pilot operation, there is no reliable voice clues of what's going on in the cockpit, unlike a two pilot cockpit.

Well, in a morbid sense we would have a better idea of "what was he thinking?" just before/as he goes splat-boom.
 
Should any pilot have the desire to do it, the easiest starting point is to simply mount a dash cam, that is currently available from numerous mfg's for land-bound vehicle use. Russia of course is the largest user, as evidenced by the crazy youtube videos, but they have no insurance so everyone needs to protect themselves.

A dash cam mounted overhead showing panel and out the front window would store reasonable information on the sd card, so that short of a fire or unrecoverable crash, good chance that someone could pull some video off it. Steps beyond that simply require someone to create the box, even if they are simply recording data provided by a stratus or simple onboard gps device.

As mentioned earlier, it is somewhat a catch-22 for the owner/pilot/user. As the owner/pilot, you are installing this under the guise of "helping future pilots not make the same mistake?".... but what pilot thinks they may be the one making that mistake? Somewhat a dark thought that I'll install this to help others, in case I crash and die. In the meantime, if something happens that I was just being stupid, and it's known that information is available for investigators, pleading the fifth isn't going to work. On the flip side, the information garnered could prove your innocence for doing the right thing, without the shadow of a doubt as well.

Probably the same overall reasons we don't see them too popular in state-side cars, although more and more semi-trucks are using them to help protect themselves during accident investigations.

pb
 
There are plenty in GA. Just not in the little spam cans you fly. No offense intended. There aren't any in the one I fly, either.
 
No thanks,not that I don't trust ,that the government wouldn't use it for enforcement issues,also what I say to a passenger,or what they say could be misconstrued.
 
If I want to record, I record. If I don't, I don't. An embedded device removes my choice... and there's no justified reason to force such a device upon me.
 
Eman and 6PC have cockpit recorders. I'm going to rig one up too. My audio panel has a 4 place intercom and I've only got two seats, so I'm going to wire a set of plugs in the baggage area to use for my GoPro.
 
More gadgets != safer. Proper and recurrent training will make GA safer. If someone spins it in due to inadvertent IMC, it doesn't matter if the plane spun 3 times or 13 times. And knowing whether it was 3 or 13 won't help with a better design. What would have prevented that is better training.
But couldn't a cockpit recorder possibly give hint to why it happened??

On a seperate issue, for those who believe the govt is going to be racing to get your recorder for some dubious reason, I think that's a tad over paranoid.
 
If I want to record, I record. If I don't, I don't. An embedded device removes my choice... and there's no justified reason to force such a device upon me.

That.

My lightspeeds have the ability to record everything I hear and say, might use it one day for making a training/fun video or something, but for the most part I don't want everything I say and do being recorded, just not my cup of tea.
 
Eman and 6PC have cockpit recorders. I'm going to rig one up too. My audio panel has a 4 place intercom and I've only got two seats, so I'm going to wire a set of plugs in the baggage area to use for my GoPro.

eh its just a gopro or sometimes a contour that I clearly use for instructional purposes only. but sometimes I like to hit record then start screaming OH MY GOD THE WINGS FELL OFF and get my passengers reaction on vid. but mostly for instructional purposes.
 
Any aircraft with Glass probably has at least rudimentary data recording. The certified and experimental versions of Garmin EFIS products certainly provide it as do other experimental brands.
 
Any aircraft with Glass probably has at least rudimentary data recording. The certified and experimental versions of Garmin EFIS products certainly provide it as do other experimental brands.
But then we get into protecting the data from the crash and possible fire...
 
But then we get into protecting the data from the crash and possible fire...

Not advocating for or against, just making an observation. FWIW, unless there's a post-crash fire I would bet the SD cards the data gets written to on most of these systems is plenty survivable.
 
On a new aircraft it'd be a negligible cost. I'm not saying retrofit the entire GA fleet, I'm saying on newly built GA aircraft.

I'm not taking about that kind of cost.


Carry on ...
 
What is the next generation's fascination with letting everyone and having everyone know what it is they are doing at every second of the day.?

Special snowflakes.
 
Geez. . .simple airplanes, crash causes are seldom a mystery, and what a pilot says or doesn't say is probably of low-to-zero value in determining cause.

Honestly, it just isn't that important or valuable. What to do with the data or voice anyway? What change would it drive? We already know running out of gas or flyng VFR into IMC convers the bulk of fatal crash causes. There isn't enough "public" exposed to GA that the non-pilot body count is statiscally significant.
 
Eman and 6PC have cockpit recorders. I'm going to rig one up too. My audio panel has a 4 place intercom and I've only got two seats, so I'm going to wire a set of plugs in the baggage area to use for my GoPro.

I only hit record if I am about to be cute.
I only post it if I nail the landing

Nobody needs to see the hours and hours of video of me busting bravo and broadcasting on guard.
 
any airplane with an efis has this to some degree. the ntsb can, and does retrieve the data from the efis memory after a crash.
 
any airplane with an efis has this to some degree. the ntsb can, and does retrieve the data from the efis memory after a crash.
But what information will they get? The last known altitude and airspeed? is that really useful without knowing control and engine inputs?
 
But what information will they get? The last known altitude and airspeed? is that really useful without knowing control and engine inputs?
Maybe derive control positions from auto pilot servo positions? I seem to recall a cirrus investigation where they had that information, and that was an avidyne equipped model.
 
In Russia just about everyone drives around with a dash-cam running full time. YouTube is FULL of Russian car crashes and it hasn't made a bit of difference.
 
Maybe derive control positions from auto pilot servo positions? I seem to recall a cirrus investigation where they had that information, and that was an avidyne equipped model.
If they can get control position, than that is great. I wasn't aware they would be able to retrieve that.
 
[...]I was thinking from a crash standpoint to advance the safety and engineering of GA

****, f**k, ahhhhhhhh!!!! :eek:o_O

Not sure, though, how such a recording to would advance the 'safety and engineering of GA'. ;) GA pilots also usually control the plane alone, I really don't see much useful information which could be recorded, other than possibly a blaring stall horn.

The pro's final words are usually also not of much value for the investigators: http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/216...ds-from-the-black-boxes-of-crashed-aircrafts/
 
GoPro, engine monitor. There's most of the info right there.

In any case, GA crashes aren't generally all that mysterious, but video and engine monitor evidence would certainly help.

Still that's like reason #157 to buy and use those technologies.
 
It would be easy to implement in a G1000 like installation. Add a 10 sec memory buffer in non volatile memory, activate storage of the buffer if an accelerometer exceeds a particular value in any one direction. You would have to have additional sensors added to capture flight control position data, possibly go with bluetooth links.
 
Well that escalated quickly.

I've been here for less than 2 days and I knew that was going to happen. C'mon man. =D

FWIW... I record out the window and inside the cabin, and I have an audio recorder to record both intercom traffic and radio. If the plane came with it as standard equipment, I wouldn't be mad at it.

But I also have a dash cam in my personal car.

Do I share any of the videos? Nope. But I record just in case. I don't know just in what case, but better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
 
It would be easy to implement in a G1000 like installation. Add a 10 sec memory buffer in non volatile memory, activate storage of the buffer if an accelerometer exceeds a particular value in any one direction. You would have to have additional sensors added to capture flight control position data, possibly go with bluetooth links.
10s won't tell you enough. Especially if the first bump is cumuogranite. And Bluetooth doesn't provide much bandwidth for much data. You want low precision, low bandwidth, or both? BT may limit you to both lol
 
I've been here for less than 2 days and I knew that was going to happen. C'mon man. =D

FWIW... I record out the window and inside the cabin, and I have an audio recorder to record both intercom traffic and radio. If the plane came with it as standard equipment, I wouldn't be mad at it.

But I also have a dash cam in my personal car.

Do I share any of the videos? Nope. But I record just in case. I don't know just in what case, but better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
What happens if you have it and don't want it? You're stuck with potentially incriminating evidence.
 
I only hit record if I am about to be cute.
I only post it if I nail the landing

Nobody needs to see the hours and hours of video of me busting bravo and broadcasting on guard.

You're just hoping to catch the chute deployment like that guy who splashed near Hawaii, we know... ;)
 
NTSB investigations already use data from PFDs and MFDs.

Example NTSB report , for a fatal Piper crash:

excerpt:

Two Avidyne Entegra Primary Flight Displays (PFD's) and an Avidyne Entegra Multi-function Display (MFD) Compact Flash (CF) card were recovered and sent to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) Vehicle Recorders Division. One PFD unit was from the pilot position (left seat) and the second PFD was from the copilot position (right seat). Both PFD units were extensively damaged in the accident. PFD data was downloaded from the pilot's PFD. Data from the copilot's PFD was not recovered. No data was recovered from the MFD CF card due to damage.

The recovered PFD data did not indicate any system anomalies that would have contributed to the accident and indicated the engine was operating normally prior to impact. The recorded flight path data was consistent with radar data for the accident flight.​
 
I...
But I also have a dash cam in my personal car.

Do I share any of the videos? Nope. But I record just in case. I don't know just in what case, but better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Well if your dash cam recorded some clown in a $120,000 Mercedes Gelandewagen plow through a couple of Hyundais I bet you'd put on YouTube
 
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