Close call this weekend

jspilot

jspilot

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jspilot
I had what I would call my first real close call with a mid-air in over 5 plus years flying( maybe I've been lucky!). I want your guys take on the situation.

I was approaching my non-towered airport from the east. The wind is howling favoring runway 33 so I need to overfly the runway to enter the left downwind. A Cessna 172 is flying the ILS approach to runway 6 making his call outs( except never stating he was planning on flying a missed approach.) I'm making my call outs and it becomes clear to me that we are going to arrive at the Airport at around the same time with him obviously flying at me. I adjust my pattern entry a bit(stay higher than usual and instead of flying directly over the mid point of runway 33( about where runway 6 crosses 33) I fly a bit further south and plan on crossing a bit closer to the approach end of 33.) I finally saw the guy approaching runway 6 as I'm about to start crossing over runway 33. He then announces he's flying the "published missed and turning south." At this point I get on the radio and say " hey you are climbing and turning right into me you should fly straight out for a bit." The guy then says "nah we are flying the PUBLISHED missed. Not the best way to enter a pattern there sir" Luckily I had him in sight and was maneuvering to avoid him and he was probably still 500 feet or so below me. Came in for a landing but was pretty rattled and given the ridiculous gusty winds I made the worst landing I've made in years.

So here are my questions:

1. Was I at fault for crossing over the airport to enter the left mid field?( I've always been taught to cross over the airport to enter the opposite downwind.)

2. When an IFR pilot says he's flying the published missed I wonder if he's aware that not everyone knows what the published missed is. I'm not aware of the published missed as I'm VFR but this guys arrogance about the fact that he was flying it no matter what made me wonder if IFR pilots believe VFR pilots should just get out of there way. Should VFR pilots yield to IFR pilots?

Thanks everyone. I'm posting this for a real good discussion and if I'm at fault please tell me because it seems like it's a situation that could benefit a lot of us who fly at non-towered airports with crossing runways and Instrument approaches.
 
Practicing an approach didn't give him any right to disrupt the landing pattern. He's still VFR at an uncontrolled field and needs to see and avoid like everyone else. He should have been more clear about his intentions, because saying that he's flying the published missed doesn't communicate much of anything to most pilots unless they have the plate out and are looking at it. He needs to speak VFR traffic language to those in the pattern. Either way he knew what he was doing and needed to coordinate climbing up and into the pattern.

As far as crossing midfield, it's fine and many people do it. But do it above pattern altitude. Many people will say that you need to fly past the downwind and come back and enter at a 45. That being said, I would have just maneuvered to avoid him once I had him in sight. Spinning a 360 to deconflict the timing would have been easiest on everybody.
 
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I'm not good at quoting FARs, but the standard accepted pattern entry is 45* to downwind from the outside of the pattern. I think this applies even more so when the field is busy. Alternately, when I'm on the wrong side to do that, I will join the same way but on upwind and fly the whole pattern. Otherwise straight in to crosswind may have worked well for you. Hope you had a good day otherwise.
 
Cooter said:
Practicing an approach didn't give him any right to disrupt the landing pattern. He's still VFR at an uncontrolled field and needs to see and avoid like everyone else. He should have been more clear about his intentions, because saying that he's flying the published missed doesn't communicate much of anything to most pilots unless they have the plate out and are looking at it. He needs to speak VFR traffic language to those in the pattern. Either way he knew what he was doing and needed to coordinate climbing up and into the pattern.
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Agree fully! We have some of those guys here....
 
While not a requirement, it's good practice to overfly the field to enter 45 to downwind... I usually cross midfield and do it 1,000 feet over pattern altitude.

There is no "VFR traffic must yield to IFR traffic" FAR that I am aware of.

Saying that he's flying the "published missed" would mean nothing to me either.

In the same situation, I would have not spoken directly to the other pilot, but simply made sure to be very clear about my position, altitude and intentions.
 
As a CFI I teach the entry you flew, as well as the 45 entry. The IFR pilot is still responsible for see and avoid, and has no priority over a VFR aircraft.

In this situation you did the right thing. My guess would be that it was the CFII who made that statement, and if it was, that CFII knows better, and certainly wasn't professional about it. As a CFII myself I would have done whatever necessary to alter my path and coordinate our flight paths with you.
 
I take it this was in VMC? In which of you both had a duty to see and avoid.

Only think I would have done diffrent would have been to coordinate with the other pilot "hey I'm going to do XYZ, how's that work for you". You kinda did that, but it also seems many people don't relize that at non towered airports you can do more than announce, you can also just talk with the other pilot.

The "published missed" was a rookie call, I always announce that I'm shooting XYZ approach, but I'll use terms like " 3,000 12mile final on the LPV 23 approach, wheels down 6 minutes" or "for the missed approach, right turn out".



Matt C said:
I'm not good at quoting FARs, but the standard accepted pattern entry is 45* ..
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No such FAR, as far as the FARs go, as long and you're flying the correct direction of left or right traffic it's all gravy.
 
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James331 said:
it also seems many people don't relize that at non towered airports you can do more than announce, you can also just talk with the other pilot.
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I know you can, but I'm anti-social. Plus I notice when people talk directly to each other at non-towered fields they often get way more wordy, sometimes start joking around and/or talking about the field's restaurant, or the big game, etc... just prefer to keep chit chat to a minimum on frequency. I have spoken directly to other pilots while in the pattern, but usually only when they have addressed me directly. Everyone has their own preference. That's just mine.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I know you can, but I'm anti-social. Plus I notice when people talk directly to each other at non-towered fields they often get way more wordy, sometimes start joking around and/or talking about the field's restaurant, or the big game, etc... just prefer to keep chit chat to a minimum on frequency. I have spoken directly to other pilots while in the pattern, but usually only when they have addressed me directly. Everyone has their own preference. That's just mine.
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Too wordy > not getting the message across.
 
I agree with 'communicate' if you're not sure. I was coming into a non-towered one time and some guy rambled off a bunch of IFR stuff he was doing. I told him that doesn't mean much to me and does he need me to alter what I was doing, he responded that he heard all my calls, knew where I was and that he was already out of my way. didn't take too much 'air time' for that little verbal exchange to get things sorted out.
 
This thread is a retread of two recent other ones... One about Instrument practice at uncontrolled airports where your average VFR pilot has no idea what the instrument callouts mean in relation to how it will affect their situation... Pilots practicing IFR should be more precise with their callouts to help VFR pilots (we're all in this together)...the other thread was about pattern entry and, as usual, many opinions on the subject. In this case, the "NAH, I'm flying the missed approach!" response could have gotten him a black eye when he finally landed... He should have done whatever was necessary to defuse the conflict, not just barrel into the pattern and other aircraft be-damned! You did nothing wrong with respect to your entry. That said, if you knew in advance this guy was there and you didn't know where he was, it might have been better to overfly the airport and re-enter on the other side or just loiter outside the pattern until he was clear... Don't get into a situation where you are reluctant to change your "normal" entry. There are many options that will work and be safe... Use whichever works best and let everyone else know what you're doing...
 
Which approach? Or at least which airport and runway?

IFR traffic does not get priority in Class E (they do in B or C, but you'll get a vector). But it's a good idea to know where they go in case you get a rookie.

Cross midfield at 500 above the highest TPA and you'll usually be above all the fun. But there are some approaches with minima above 1000 AGL, usually due to terrain.

VFR practice approaches often require deconfliction with VFR patterns. Usually, I'll restrict minima to TPA, especially when circling, and extend missed climb segments if terrain allows. This requires planning. Some approaches I won't do at all in day VMC because they oppose VFR traffic, especially precision downwind approaches.

Cajun_Flyer said:
I know you can, but I'm anti-social. Plus I notice when people talk directly to each other at non-towered fields they often get way more wordy, sometimes start joking around and/or talking about the field's restaurant, or the big game, etc... just prefer to keep chit chat to a minimum on frequency. I have spoken directly to other pilots while in the pattern, but usually only when they have addressed me directly. Everyone has their own preference. That's just mine.
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Please reconsider this. All you need is something like "I have you in sight, extending downwind behind you." Or "I'm right in front of you. I'll keep my speed at 100 knots. Is that fast enough for you?" Or "I don't see you. I'm entering left downwind for 30 over the river." Or whatever is needed to deconflict. You don't need to chat, but basic, professional, proactive deconfliction is part of nontowered procedures.
 
I have talked directly to other pilots many times, but mostly in a direct question or quick statement to clarify a position or notification to assist in separation.

I have been asked where I was right after I had announced that I was turning downwind to 18. I repeated downwind 18 but I failed to give him a description of where in the downwind. He wanted to know if he had time to depart and asked in a different way. I gave him a better position report and said he had plenty of time to depart and that I had him in sight. It took seconds and well worth the trouble if you are unsure of my location, we weren't discussing pizza options with salad.
 
You did fine. Watch for those high-wingers, not on the radio, that pull out onto the runway while you and your family are on a very short final. That will get your heart rate up some too.
 
MAKG1 said:
Please reconsider this. All you need is something like "I have you in sight, extending downwind behind you." Or "I'm right in front of you. I'll keep my speed at 100 knots. Is that fast enough for you?" Or "I don't see you. I'm entering left downwind for 30 over the river." Or whatever is needed to deconflict. You don't need to chat, but basic, professional, proactive deconfliction is part of nontowered procedures.
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I do when I feel it's needed... like the other day with an obviously confused student in the pattern. Just don't generally feel it's needed.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I agree. But you shouldn't have to be wordy to get your message across.
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While it is true that it's good to strive to communicate as effectively as possible, it shouldn't be a thought in your mind when a question needs to be asked.

If I have a question for ATC or another pilot I ask, often it's official pilot speak and quick and to the point, but if it's something oddball, or someone in the pattern who I have no idea what they are doing, I might end up a little more long winded or not 100% pilot speak, and not a chit I could give.

In the order of importance when flying, sounding "official" on the radio is one step above hitting fewer bugs in cruise.
 
mscard88 said:
Nope, already said my piece. But I do think your tone towards Cajun in what I highlighted was YOU being the jerk. So, I'm just waiting for Cajun's response, hence the popcorn. You have a good day now.
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Sensitive much?

I didn't get that vibe at all. Seemed like he have her a good suguestion.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I know you can, but I'm anti-social. Plus I notice when people talk directly to each other at non-towered fields they often get way more wordy, sometimes start joking around and/or talking about the field's restaurant, or the big game, etc... just prefer to keep chit chat to a minimum on frequency. I have spoken directly to other pilots while in the pattern, but usually only when they have addressed me directly. Everyone has their own preference. That's just mine.
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I think you might be confusing social chit-chat with using the frequency to coordinate with other traffic. I agree with keeping the former to a minimum, but the latter is often something you really have to do to avoid conflicts like the one that happened here. Once I was arriving at Laconia just ahead of a much faster King Air. It was clear that he would pass me in the pattern unless he either slowed down majorly or I yielded to him and he could be on the ground before I even turned base. So I announced that I was getting out of his way, he thanked me and that was that. Turned out he was actually in a hurry due to a rental car reservation, so forcing him to slow down would have made him a pretty unhappy camper.

OP: you did nothing wrong. The pilot shooting the practice approach (or his CFII, if that's who it actually was) was simply being a jerk. Barreling in with no consideration for other traffic, assuming everyone knows what the published miss is, and expecting VFR traffic to get the hell out of his way is just bad airmanship, period. Shame on the other guy.
 
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azure said:
I think you might be confusing social chit-chat with using the frequency to coordinate with other traffic. I agree with keeping the former to a minimum, but the latter is often something you really have to do to avoid conflicts like the one that happened here. Once I was arriving at Laconia just ahead of a much faster King Air. It was clear that he would pass me in the pattern unless he either slowed down majorly or I yielded to him and he could be on the ground before I even turned base. So I announced that I was getting out of his way, he thanked me and that was that. Turned out he was actually in a hurry due to a rental car reservation, so forcing him to slow down would have made him a pretty unhappy camper.

The OP did nothing wrong. The pilot shooting the practice approach (or his CFII, if that's who it actually was) was simply being a jerk. Barreling in with no consideration for other traffic, assuming everyone knows what the published miss is, and expecting VFR traffic to get the hell out of his way is just bad airmanship, period. Shame on the other guy.
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A pilot that is a jerk? No way! I'll bet he doesn't use an AOA either.
 
MAKG1 said:
Do you have something to add, or are you just being a jerk?
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James331 said:
Sensitive much?

I didn't get that vibe at all. Seemed like he have her a good suguestion.
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I reread MAKG's comment and see that I interpreted it the wrong way. MAKG I apologize and I'll delete my post above.
 
A couple things on position reporting: the guy practicing the approach has two problems, 1) is telling other IFR folks where they are on the approach and 2) telling other VFR folks where they are on the approach when they get within 10 or so miles of the airport. The first is important because the IFR might start setting up 20 miles from the airport and should let anyone else know about it to avoid conflict with someone else who may be doing the same thing. These folks have the plates out and should know what fix they are headed for (more or less depending on skill). The second has already been pointed out.

For me, i use IFR terms when more than 10 or so miles from the airport. Within 10 miles I'll still use IFR terms then tack on a distance/direction for the VFR folks along with intentions such as missed or landing. If departing the airport I'll try to give direction but sometimes get busy and give just a fix. Need more practice so I don't feel busy I suppose.
 
I talk directly to other pilots all the time...doesn't have to be wordy, but it makes more sense because it assures that they hear you/you hear them.

Last fall I had an interesting radio exchange with a pilot at a nearby airport that ended up be "wordy", but not by my choice...I was flying to "Clare County" airport. Very close by, there is another airport, sharing the same CTAF, called "Clare Municipal". I made standard calls at 10 miles and 3 miles and heard no other traffic. As I called that I was entering the pattern "mid-field 45 downwind for runway 27 Clare County", immediately I heard another pilot respond somewhat frantically, "Cessna abc123 is also entering the midfield 45 downwind for runway 27 Clare. I don't have the Cherokee!" Because I knew that Clare Municipal was nearby and because he just said "Clare", I asked the Cessna if he was at Clare Municipal or Clare County, and he just responded, "Clare airport". I asked him "which Clare airport", and his answer ("THE Clare Airport"...he emphasized "THE") made it apparent that he didn't know there was a Clare County and a Clare Municipal. Finally I had to ask him if he was landing on paved runway 27 (which would be Clare Municipal) or grass (which is Clare County). The guy finally realized he was at Clare Municipal and although I was trying to be polite, he made a point of over emphasizing the word "Municipal" by practically screaming the word "Municipal" on every subsequent call. At least I then knew where the guy was.
 
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Thankfully, I have lots of sleepy Class Deltas around which are much more conducive to doing practice IFR approaches. I hate doing practice approaches into uncontrolled fields, especially when it's a circle to land while making the approach to the downwind runway.
 
Last time I had to question a pilot was when I was above pattern altitude crossing the runway to enter a left base and a high wing Cessna flew under me and entered the downwind without any announcement until he was established in the downwind. So I descended to follow him. When I reached the point I configure to land this guy was still on the downwind. I keyed up and asked, "Hey Cessna (numbers) do you plan on turning base anytime soon because I'm a half mile behind you and could turn base now." "Turning base now." (heavy Asian accent)

This happened at Casa Grande for you Arizona flyers. With all the buffoonery going on, I predict a mid air sometime in the near future near there.
 
I really appreciate the feedback from all of you. I am also glad to know that I did not do anything wrong. I will say, a second point has come up here that is interesting regarding talking to other pilots directly at non-towered fields. I would say that I do this frequently during potential conflicts. People who have experience flying at busy non-towered fields, will know that poor information from other pilots is just as bad than no information. If I can't locate an aircraft in the pattern and I'm entering the pattern I will sometimes ask " hey aircraft on downwind where on the downwind are you?" Similarly if I'm trying to sequence into the pattern I may ask a plane who is on the upwind if they are remaining in the pattern or not. To me, these instances seem like appropriate times to engage in real quick clarification so that any potential collision can be avoided. Almost always does the plane respond and I would too if another pilot asked me for clarification. Responding and helping each other avoid a mid-air is what all of us should be trying to do. My ego or anyone else's ego won't mean anything if we collide and tumble from the sky!
 
Haven't read the whole thread so maybe it's already been said. The other pilots response after you had told him you saw him and he was turning into you was not good. Now maybe he had you in sight and knew he would be behind and/or under you, but he should have said so. But just blurting out "I'm doing the published missed" and leaving it at that ain't good.
 
labbadabba said:
Thankfully, I have lots of sleepy Class Deltas around which are much more conducive to doing practice IFR approaches. I hate doing practice approaches into uncontrolled fields, especially when it's a circle to land while making the approach to the downwind runway.
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You bet.

There is one airport around here that has its approaches (except for one very high VOR approach) against traffic. It's a coastal airport with mountains on the leeward side. It's got a good variety -- VOR (with DME arcs!), LOC (timed, no DME), and LPV. But I won't go there in VMC, except for the VOR, because I'm virtually guaranteed someone will depart directly at me. Fortunately, that airport has rather frequent instrument conditions. Then, it's a great destination.

As for reports, one doesn't need to give position reports to other IFR pilots. They are kept separated by clearances, and if they were a factor, you would have heard them on Approach. It's the VFR pilots that are the audience, and it's appropriate to use VFR terms (usually "XX mile straight in for rwy YY, low approach at WWW feet then left/right turn at ZZZZ feet," but it can be something else).

Sometimes us instrument pilots forget about the VFR guys. It's a pretty big mistake, but it's especially problematic when we descend through an overcast layer past the final approach fix, and forget that it's still possible for a field to be VFR under that condition. I've had that happen at a different coastal airport, on an LPV, breaking out at 1500 to encounter legal and perfectly legitimate pattern traffic 500 feet below. Fortunately, both of us were on the radio, and we knew about each other while I was still in the clouds. It was not a problem, but it could have been had either of us not been on the radio.
 
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I'm all for extra position reports, if the frequency's not too busy. I had a situation a while back where I'm flying into my home airport Cable (nontowered) and I make my call indicating that I'm over the dam, working my way over to a crosswind entry to 24 (standard at the field). Two seconds later, another plane on frequency indicates that he's over the dam too, closer to TPA so maybe 500' below me. Classic high wing/low wing scenario. Hairs on the back of my neck standing at full attention. I did actually catch sight of him a few seconds later, below and off to my right.

So I indicate my altitude, that I'd hold my altitude, fly to the west for separation, then do a 180 back to the airport to re-enter pattern. This is the sort of communication we need...maybe not standard pattern calls, but "where are you/I'm here/let's avoid each other" kind of stuff.

To the OP...I was taught that a midfield-to-downwind entry is perfectly fine, especially if the field is not busy. I prefer flying well above TPA and doing a teardrop entry to the 45, but there have been times when I'm descending in the teardrop, someone else (who I haven't spotted) announces that they're on the 45, so I fly farther away from the field and try again. Some days it seems that all other planes in/near the pattern are trying to be your shadow!
 
Cooter said:
...As far as crossing midfield, it's fine and many people do it. But do it above pattern altitude. Many people will say that you need to fly past the downwind and come back and enter at a 45...
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that's exactly how I was taught. remain above TPA, cross midfield and when clear of the downwind execute a turn and enter the downwind at midfield on the 45.
 
IF someone is doing practice inst appr. one should always expect them to go missed. having said that the guy was way out of line to say that he will be flying missed and ask to you find where MAF is. Any reasonable pilot wound say something like " OK I will try to find where you are and offer any help to keep them separated.
 
MAKG1 said:
Sometimes us instrument pilots forget about the VFR guys. It's a pretty big mistake, but it's especially problematic when we descend through an overcast layer past the final approach fix, and forget that it's still possible for a field to be VFR under that condition.
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As a CFII I've always stressed to instrument students that even if it were technically IMC at an uncontrolled airport, some one may still be in the pattern, and it was important to get out of the cockpit and look for other traffic.
 
Matt C said:
I'm not good at quoting FARs, but the standard accepted pattern entry is 45* to downwind from the outside of the pattern. I think this applies even more so when the field is busy. Alternately, when I'm on the wrong side to do that, I will join the same way but on upwind and fly the whole pattern. Otherwise straight in to crosswind may have worked well for you. Hope you had a good day otherwise.
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That might place you in a head on situation at a lot of fields if they're practicing instrument approaches on the non-wind favored runway.

Timbeck2 said:
"Turning base now." (heavy Asian accent). This happened at Casa Grande for you Arizona flyers. With all the buffoonery going on, I predict a mid air sometime in the near future near there.
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I have TIS and XRX. Just passing through on long XC I've seen that quite a few times in the PHX area. I now land at Marana for fuel and stay well away from PHX area unless going to a hockey game in Glendale.
 
Call "guns hot", turn into him and take the shot.
Wait, that was a different thread.
Poor communications (and manners) at uncontrolled fields are, in fact, two of my (few) pet peeves.
The reality is that you can't fix it.
The very best you can do is not be part of the problem.
 
blueskyMD said:
IF someone is doing practice inst appr. one should always expect them to go missed. having said that the guy was way out of line to say that he will be flying missed and ask to you find where MAF is. Any reasonable pilot wound say something like " OK I will try to find where you are and offer any help to keep them separated.
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The least he could do is say what the procedure is below TPA. He should know it, or he's screwing up even worse; it should have been briefed prior to initiating the approach.

"Low approach at 500, climbing left turn after 800," for instance.

Instrument procedures are not required to pass the DER because the assumption is they never saw the runway and don't know where the DER is. But VFR pilots don't know that. They are generally required to climb to at least 400 AGL straight out. Approach speeds may be significantly faster than VFR (I use 90 knots on a 172 or 182).
 
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