Climb 3,000 expect 8,000 in 10 minutes........ from when?

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KeepWatch

Pre-takeoff checklist
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KeepWatch
The subject title should say it all. I have an IFR checkride on Monday. In the event of lost comms on takeoff, when should my timer have started so that I start my climb to 8,000 at the correct moment?

The two options I can think of are (1) when I'm cleared for takeoff or (2) when I reach 3,000 ft

Thanks!
 
KeepWatch said:
The subject title should say it all. I have an IFR checkride on Monday. In the event of lost comms on takeoff, when should my timer have started so that I start my climb to 8,000 at the correct moment?

The two options I can think of are (1) when I'm cleared for takeoff or (2) when I reach 3,000 ft

Thanks!
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When you lift off, IMO.
 
But when is departure? Is it when you lift off from the runway, or is from when you started logging time 20 minutes ago, you know...because....gotta log non-flight time as flight time.
 
If lost comms happen that close to the departure point, I would just turn around and land back where I started from.
 
PaulS said:
If lost comms happen that close to the departure point, I would just turn around and land back where I started from.
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I think that would depend on the departure airport and how busy it was. O'Hare maybe not.

It's also not just lost comms. The radio might be so busy you don't get a chance to check in for 15 mins
 
PaulS said:
If lost comms happen that close to the departure point, I would just turn around and land back where I started from.
Click to expand...

EdFred said:
I think that would depend on the departure airport and how busy it was. O'Hare maybe not.

It's also not just lost comms. The radio might be so busy you don't get a chance to check in for 15 mins
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Agreed. And I'll put some more about my thought process with a few given scenarios. Feel free to pick apart (I'm learning).

IF I entered low IMC upon departure, I squawk 7600 and follow the expected climb procedure until I reach my destination or enter VMC.

IF I'm in VMC, squawk 7600 and land as soon as possible and probably best not to pick a major hub airport to do this unless it's the only VMC option. Don't worry about climbing to 8,000 unless I'm in a super busy environment and I need to be predictable to ATC. In any case, when they see the 7600 squawk I expect that'll draw their attention and I shouldn't worry too much about interfering with their normal flow of traffic. They'll be routing around me anyways. I'd probably look ahead for the nearest smaller airport and land there.
 
Larry in TN said:
Don't climb on your own because of a busy frequency. The controller knows you are there. He will call you when he needs you to climb, or turn, even if you haven't checked in.
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Yep, I'll just plow into that terrain ahead. Good thinkin.
 
EdFred said:
Yep, I'll just plow into that terrain ahead. Good thinkin.
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No, don't plow into terrain. The controller is not going to let you plow into terrain just because you haven't checked in yet.

Don't climb without a clearance, though, unless you really have lost comms. The controller WILL call you when he needs you if you aren't able to get in first. You wouldn't have been switched to his frequency unless he knew you were coming.
 
Ryanb said:
:rolleyes:
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It's what the 7110.65 says, controllers are not required to follow it except when being investigated or during training.

Most people will drop it since its so common and they have better things to do. In most situations, the controller issuing the clearance won't even have control of the aircraft 10 minutes after departure so to them its a moot point. But it provides a fallback in the system if comms fail or whatever else happens and the approach or enroute controller can expect you to climb to that specific altitude and work around it.
 
EdFred said:
I think that would depend on the departure airport and how busy it was. O'Hare maybe not.

It's also not just lost comms. The radio might be so busy you don't get a chance to check in for 15 mins
Click to expand...


I don't see busy radio as lost comms. As far as the ascend to avoid terrain, absolutely.

I landed at Waterbury Oxford a few weeks ago, I was IFR and it was IMC. The Bradley controller cleared me to the IAF, then switched me over to a New York controller. That guy was swamped. I checked in, no response. Waited a few and checked in again, no response. Waited about 5 minutes, was getting close the IAF, got a "stand by" apparently he was working about 3 frequencies. So I waited, my plan was if he didn't get to me I would maintain my assigned altitude, follow the approach and go missed. Finally, literally 10 seconds before my turn onto the final approach course, he clears me for the approach and switches me to tower.

Fun stuff.
 
KeepWatch said:
Agreed. And I'll put some more about my thought process with a few given scenarios. Feel free to pick apart (I'm learning).

IF I entered low IMC upon departure, I squawk 7600 and follow the expected climb procedure until I reach my destination or enter VMC.

IF I'm in VMC, squawk 7600 and land as soon as possible and probably best not to pick a major hub airport to do this unless it's the only VMC option. Don't worry about climbing to 8,000 unless I'm in a super busy environment and I need to be predictable to ATC. In any case, when they see the 7600 squawk I expect that'll draw their attention and I shouldn't worry too much about interfering with their normal flow of traffic. They'll be routing around me anyways. I'd probably look ahead for the nearest smaller airport and land there.
Click to expand...

Sounds pretty good to me, but I'm not a CFII so you should really discuss it with him. If I had lost comms and was VMC I would stay VMC. Be careful with "busy hub" thinking, while lost comm is not really an emergency, if doing something other than the busy hub could escalate it to an emergency I would inconvenience the busy hub.
 
PaulS said:
Finally, literally 10 seconds before my turn onto the final approach course, he clears me for the approach and switches me to tower.
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Exactly. When a controller is that busy they are talking to the people who need to be talked to right now. They'll get to you when they either get caught up or you are now the aircraft who he needs to talk to right now. Don't repeatedly block him by trying to check in over and over. He'll call you when he needs to. If things slow down, then check-in.

If you're in the mountains, well below radar coverage, that's different. But then, the problem isn't going to be a frequency so busy that you can't make a check-in call. It's a real loss of communications. In such a case, also try to contact another aircraft at a higher altitude to relay your position and altitude and, possibly, relay a climb clearance back to you.

Had a situation back in ~2011. Flying a DC8 from Diego Garcia (BIOT) to Bahrain. Departing to the NNW out of Diego the airspace is uncontrolled below FL245. We plan to cross the FIR with Mumbai at FL240 then get a climb clearance as soon as possible. Shortly after takeoff we start calling Mumbai Radio on HF. The HF radios in those old DC8s weren't the best and neither, apparently, are the radios in Mumbai. It took us almost 90 minutes to establish contact and receive our climb clearance. Comm issues like that aren't uncommon in the more remote parts of oceanic airspace but I've never encountered one anywhere near that long. Needless to say, after spending so much longer at FL240 than planned, we hit the Arabian Peninsula without much extra fuel. Luckily, it was a clear VFR day so we didn't have to make a stop at Dubai, or Doha, for fuel.
 
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EdFred said:
But when is departure? Is it when you lift off from the runway, or is from when you started logging time 20 minutes ago, you know...because....gotta log non-flight time as flight time.
Click to expand...
Hey, if Foreflight tacks on an extra 0.6, it must be true!

PaulS said:
If lost comms happen that close to the departure point, I would just turn around and land back where I started from.
Click to expand...
Assuming VFR, same. Actually, I thought that was the lost comms procedure, you follow the clearance until you can land VFR at the soonest practical spot? If I file MYF to MMH I'm not going to fly all the way there VFR if my comms crapped out just as soon I took off

Larry in TN said:
The controller is not going to let you plow into terrain
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Eva Air would like to have a word with you. No crash, but damn they came close. Probably cause was the controller's actions: http://aerossurance.com/safety-management/near-b777-cfit-lax/
..generally I'm not going to willy nilly climb just because the 10 minutes are up and the controller is busy.. but I'll be watching that terrain map closely and if I need to climb I will. The ATC guys are fallible too..
 
Tantalum said:
Hey, if Foreflight tacks on an extra 0.6, it must be true!


Assuming VFR, same. Actually, I thought that was the lost comms procedure, you follow the clearance until you can land VFR at the soonest practical spot? If I file MYF to MMH I'm not going to fly all the way there VFR if my comms crapped out just as soon I took off


Eva Air would like to have a word with you. No crash, but damn they came close. Probably cause was the controller's actions: http://aerossurance.com/safety-management/near-b777-cfit-lax/
..generally I'm not going to willy nilly climb just because the 10 minutes are up and the controller is busy.. but I'll be watching that terrain map closely and if I need to climb I will. The ATC guys are fallible too..
Click to expand...

Or the number of times Detroit Approach has just plain forgotten about me. Yeah, more than once.
 
PaulS said:
I don't see busy radio as lost comms. As far as the ascend to avoid terrain, absolutely.

I landed at Waterbury Oxford a few weeks ago, I was IFR and it was IMC. The Bradley controller cleared me to the IAF, then switched me over to a New York controller. That guy was swamped. I checked in, no response. Waited a few and checked in again, no response. Waited about 5 minutes, was getting close the IAF, got a "stand by" apparently he was working about 3 frequencies. So I waited, my plan was if he didn't get to me I would maintain my assigned altitude, follow the approach and go missed. Finally, literally 10 seconds before my turn onto the final approach course, he clears me for the approach and switches me to tower.

Fun stuff.
Click to expand...

I thought traffic was light these days?
 
dmspilot said:
Why the eye roll. He asked whether the time starts from departure or reaching the assigned altitude. The proper phraseology answers the question.
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There’s no difference between ‘one zero minutes’ or ‘ten minutes’ other than the robotic nature of verbiage that pilots are taught during training.
 
Ryanb said:
There’s no difference between ‘one zero minutes’ or ‘ten minutes’ other than the robotic nature of verbiage that pilots are taught during training.
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he wasn't pointing out 10 or one zero, he stated "after departure" should be the full terminology.
 
Tantalum said:
Damn... I bet you've got some good stories to tell!
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I could come up with a few... I only flew for that airline for 3-1/2 years and, within that time, they furloughed me twice.

After the second furlough from there I worked for a few months for a CRJ operator who had a domicile within driving distance. I'd fly with Captains barely half my age who'd gone from small G.A. airplanes to the CRJ to the CRJ left-seat. Most were really good but there were a couple of interesting conversations. One night I was given an assignment off reserve to ferry an airplane that turned out to have an inoperative FMS. Neither the Captain nor the dispatcher could figure out how to file a routing without RNAV! LOL

Other interesting destinations in the DC8, Thule AB, Greenland; Antigua (ANU); Ascension Island (FHAW); Lajes, Azores (LPLA); Yokota AB, Japan (OKO); Paya Labar AB, Singapore; Wake Island (AWK); Kwajallein (KWA); Hickam (HNL); and, of course, Diego Garcia (FJDG); and Bahrain (BAH). When I was bumped over to the 767 it was mostly the DHL flying out of Bahrain. We'd do day trips to Bagram, Kandahar, and Camp Bastion in Afghanastan; Lahore and Karachi in Pakasta; and Dubai, UAE. You know it's bad, at the end of a long day, when landing in Bahrain feels like you are RETURNING to civilization!

It was a lot of fun, at the time, but the pay was only so-so and the trips as long as 14 days in a row.

Final at Diego.
IMAG0355.jpg

Shortly after coasting out from Florida (Patrick AFB) on the way to Antigua and Ascension.
IMAG0188.jpg

DC8-62 Combi on the ground in Antigua.
IMAG0191.jpg

Short final at Ascension. I found that one on the web. We landed just before sunrise. VOR-A approach. Nearest alternate 800nm away.
FHAW runway 2.jpg

On the ramp at Thule. Temp about M30C.
IMAG0543.jpg
 
Arnold said:
Are ever really truly lost comm with Selcal?
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It's a different kinda lost comm... LOL

At my currently employer, I was flying a passenger 737 from the NY area to the Carribbean. Lots of storms on the Lima tracks in the WATRS airspace causing lots of back and forth on HF with New York Radio with requests for altitude changes and course deviations. On the 737, the SELCAL chime is a hi/low Ding/Dong. Later, when we were taking lav breaks, the F/A says that one of the passengers in First Class wanted to know why the doorbell kept ringing!
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
I thought traffic was light these days?
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I think the controller was covering several areas and the weather worse than forecast. There were several aircraft he was talking to on my frequency, I have no idea about the other areas. The guy sounded stressed.
 
Larry in TN said:
I could come up with a few... I only flew for that airline for 3-1/2 years and, within that time, they furloughed me twice.

After the second furlough from there I worked for a few months for a CRJ operator who had a domicile within driving distance. I'd fly with Captains barely half my age who'd gone from small G.A. airplanes to the CRJ to the CRJ left-seat. Most were really good but there were a couple of interesting conversations. One night I was given an assignment off reserve to ferry an airplane that turned out to have an inoperative FMS. Neither the Captain nor the dispatcher could figure out how to file a routing without RNAV! LOL

Other interesting destinations in the DC8, Thule AB, Greenland; Antigua (ANU); Ascension Island (FHAW); Lajes, Azores (LPLA); Yokota AB, Japan (OKO); Paya Labar AB, Singapore; Wake Island (AWK); Kwajallein (KWA); Hickam (HNL); and, of course, Diego Garcia (FJDG); and Bahrain (BAH). When I was bumped over to the 767 it was mostly the DHL flying out of Bahrain. We'd do day trips to Bagram, Kandahar, and Camp Bastion in Afghanastan; Lahore and Karachi in Pakasta; and Dubai, UAE. You know it's bad, at the end of a long day, when landing in Bahrain feels like you are RETURNING to civilization!

It was a lot of fun, at the time, but the pay was only so-so and the trips as long as 14 days in a row.

Final at Diego.
View attachment 88188

Shortly after coasting out from Florida (Patrick AFB) on the way to Antigua and Ascension.
View attachment 88189


DC8-62 Combi on the ground in Antigua.
View attachment 88190

Short final at Ascension. I found that one on the web. We landed just before sunrise. VOR-A approach. Nearest alternate 800nm away.
View attachment 88191

On the ramp at Thule. Temp about M30C.
View attachment 88192
Click to expand...

My brother used to be a mechanic for ATI, back in the BAX days. I even got to jumpseat on a -71 from BDL to BOS. That was awesome!
 
KeepWatch said:
The subject title should say it all. I have an IFR checkride on Monday. In the event of lost comms on takeoff, when should my timer have started so that I start my climb to 8,000 at the correct moment?

The two options I can think of are (1) when I'm cleared for takeoff or (2) when I reach 3,000 ft

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Did your CFII cover this, if not I would ask for a refund.
 
MauleSkinner said:
What was the response?
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It would be bad form to make a smart Alec comment to a paying customer. The response was that it was the SELCAL chime, with a little explanation as to what that meant.

Groundpounder said:
My brother used to be a mechanic for ATI, back in the BAX days. I even got to jumpseat on a -71 from BDL to BOS. That was awesome!
Click to expand...
I did some BAX flying but BAX shut down their air network not too long after I was hired. Flying all night to/from Toledo isn't nearly as interesting as the Combi trips.
 
If your mincing over this minutia you sound well prepared and are doubting yourself. Get done rest
 
Larry in TN said:
It would be bad form to make a smart Alec comment to a paying customer. The response was that it was the SELCAL chime, with a little explanation as to what that meant.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I guess it’s a little different if you’re not on a first-name basis.

I had a guy ask me one time how I turned the lights on at an uncontrolled airport (he saw them come on bright as we flew over). Another passenger said, “didn’t you see him open the window and clap twice?”:D
 
Larry in TN said:
Was flying the DC8 LAX-TOL one day and a Denver Center controller wanted us to send some Tony Packo's back to him on the TOL-DEN flight!
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Whenever I could, Loma Linda's, er, Toledo Express was my choice for an alternate. The original one I remember burned down and the newer better bigger one just wasn't the same. Heard a lot about Tony Packo's.
 
dtuuri said:
Whenever I could, Loma Linda's, er, Toledo Express was my choice for an alternate. The original one I remember burned down and the newer better bigger one just wasn't the same. Heard a lot about Tony Packo's.
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I never got to try either of them out. I spent very little time in Toledo and, when I did, it was mostly awake in the middle of the night and sleeping during the day. I bid away from those BAX trips as soon as I could hold the Combi trips.
 
Larry in TN said:
I could come up with a few... I only flew for that airline for 3-1/2 years and, within that time, they furloughed me twice.

After the second furlough from there I worked for a few months for a CRJ operator who had a domicile within driving distance. I'd fly with Captains barely half my age who'd gone from small G.A. airplanes to the CRJ to the CRJ left-seat. Most were really good but there were a couple of interesting conversations. One night I was given an assignment off reserve to ferry an airplane that turned out to have an inoperative FMS. Neither the Captain nor the dispatcher could figure out how to file a routing without RNAV! LOL

Other interesting destinations in the DC8, Thule AB, Greenland; Antigua (ANU); Ascension Island (FHAW); Lajes, Azores (LPLA); Yokota AB, Japan (OKO); Paya Labar AB, Singapore; Wake Island (AWK); Kwajallein (KWA); Hickam (HNL); and, of course, Diego Garcia (FJDG); and Bahrain (BAH). When I was bumped over to the 767 it was mostly the DHL flying out of Bahrain. We'd do day trips to Bagram, Kandahar, and Camp Bastion in Afghanastan; Lahore and Karachi in Pakasta; and Dubai, UAE. You know it's bad, at the end of a long day, when landing in Bahrain feels like you are RETURNING to civilization!

It was a lot of fun, at the time, but the pay was only so-so and the trips as long as 14 days in a row.

Final at Diego.
View attachment 88188

Shortly after coasting out from Florida (Patrick AFB) on the way to Antigua and Ascension.
View attachment 88189

DC8-62 Combi on the ground in Antigua.
View attachment 88190

Short final at Ascension. I found that one on the web. We landed just before sunrise. VOR-A approach. Nearest alternate 800nm away.
View attachment 88191

On the ramp at Thule. Temp about M30C.
View attachment 88192
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing! Thule, cool, I only recently discovered this place thanks to random YouTube recommendations

I have to imagine having four engines four these trips gave some piece of mind.
 
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