Clearing Turns, "Wing Lifts", and Checkrides

D

DCR

Pre-Flight
Joined
Jun 14, 2023
Messages
44
Display Name
Display name:
rudy
Hello,

I know this is a somewhat boring topic that can somehow still be debated ad infinitum (see here and here), but I am specifically wondering about checkride expectations. Is this what is expected from most DPEs?: (I know, I know, "ask your CFI / DPE". Well, I'm on a break from training right now and apparently the best use of my time is to stir the pot a little on here. But I really do want to know.)

If you want to add what you do in your everyday flying I would be even more grateful!

Clearing turns (90° left then 90° right, or 180° turn):
- Required before practicing any of the ACS maneuvers (basically ACS section V. Perf and Ground Ref Maneuvers, VII. Slow flight and Stalls, and IX. Emergency Procedures)
- Just those "big maneuvers", right? Any other times?

Wing lift (small quick bank to check blind spot due to high wing):
- Do this before starting a clearing turn (i.e. peek under your left wing before banking into your left clearing turn)
- Traffic pattern turns??
- Turns to a heading??

In a climb
- Some wagging left and right in a climb to check under your nose (not a full clearing turn, just enough to check blind spot)

For reference training is being done in a 172 (when I resume).
 
The DPE will expect you do clearing turns once going to the practice area before performing the first maneuver. My experience is that you don't need to do clearing turns before every single maneuver in the checkride.
 
I think the answer is to go beyond rote memorization ("when does someone else expect me to do this?") and figure out the reason for doing clearing maneuvers ("I've been heading in the same direction for the last 10 minutes and I'm going to do a steep turn now. Maybe I should look to see if the area is clear?").
 
On my checkride, at one point the DPE asked me to to do a steep turn to the right. Before turning I looked under the right wing and saw that we were just passing a flock of Canada geese. I don't know whether he timed his request that way or it was coincidental, but either way it reminded me why we look first.
 
I'm gonna say it...

I am 1500 hours in and still don't understand clearing turns.
At best, I have about 2 mile eyeballs installed in my head and I can never spot traffic half the time even when pointed out (I know I am not the only one).
Left 90 look for a plane, don't see it then do the opposite and setup for a maneuver. Let's say power off stalls, by the time I setup for slow flight and get configured, etc any plane 2.1 miles away (or one I simply didn't spot) could be right there.

I kinda think clearing turns are just an item for a CFI / DPE to have something to ding you on.
 
generally i just want to see that you're looking out for traffic and not eyes locked inside.

I've spent around 1000 hrs giving checkrides so far. I've often wondered how much of that time is spent doing clearing turns.
 
MRC01 said:
On my checkride, at one point the DPE asked me to to do a steep turn to the right. Before turning I looked under the right wing and saw that we were just passing a flock of Canada geese. I don't know whether he timed his request that way or it was coincidental, but either way it reminded me why we look first.
Click to expand...
Or, you make the turn without clearing, hit a goose and when the DPE questions it, you answer, "but nobody told me to do a clearing turn for that!"
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I'm gonna say it...

I am 1500 hours in and still don't understand clearing turns.
At best, I have about 2 mile eyeballs installed in my head and I can never spot traffic half the time even when pointed out (I know I am not the only one).
Left 90 look for a plane, don't see it then do the opposite and setup for a maneuver. Let's say power off stalls, by the time I setup for slow flight and get configured, etc any plane 2.1 miles away (or one I simply didn't spot) could be right there.

I kinda think clearing turns are just an item for a CFI / DPE to have something to ding you on.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that before turning base to final, you just make the turn (which in a low wing blocks the view) and don't take a look to clear the extended final since you might not see them anyway?

Maybe that's how Watsonville happened?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I'm gonna say it...

I am 1500 hours in and still don't understand clearing turns.
At best, I have about 2 mile eyeballs installed in my head and I can never spot traffic half the time even when pointed out (I know I am not the only one).
Left 90 look for a plane, don't see it then do the opposite and setup for a maneuver. Let's say power off stalls, by the time I setup for slow flight and get configured, etc any plane 2.1 miles away (or one I simply didn't spot) could be right there.

I kinda think clearing turns are just an item for a CFI / DPE to have something to ding you on.
Click to expand...
thank you for saying that. I've been thinking it since I started.

I reckon that about the only thing you're checking is to make sure someone isn't flying formation on you...or sneaking up from behind.
and yet, we do it!
and when we do, often it's a clearing turn...and then the student goes back to a heading, and starts slowly configuring such as a gradual slow down and feed in a little flaps... and then by the time the actual maneuver happens you're miles away from where you did the clearing turns and your bogey's that were beyond sight are now right on your tail....

Seems like a real quick wing lift or dip immediately before doing something crazy is more useful in my thinking
 
midlifeflyer said:
Are you saying that before turning base to final, you just make the turn (which in a low wing blocks the view) and don't take a look to clear the extended final since you might not see them anyway?

Maybe that's how Watsonville happened?
Click to expand...
Think that's different than what @SixPapaCharlie was saying. He was talking specifically about clearing turns prior to maneuvers. I too had wondered about the effectiveness of that. Making your own plane more visible as @MacFlier mentioned makes sense.

The benefit of checking final is way more clear.
 
Hang 4 said:
Think that's different than what @SixPapaCharlie was saying. He was talking specifically about clearing turns prior to maneuvers. I too had wondered about the effectiveness of that. Making your own plane more visible as @MacFlier mentioned makes sense.

The benefit of checking final is way more clear.
Click to expand...
Here's the thing. I don't see a difference. To me it's about looking for potential conflict before turning, not some rote memorization of "do it now" excluding "do it then."

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. What do you think is different between the need to (a) take a look before turning base to final; (b) take a look before turning enroute; and (c) take a look before the next maneuver in a perhaps busy practice area?

Say, like here
1734628402179.png
 
I wasn't advocating doing nothing, just questioning the specific clearing turn maneuverer as taught. You could argue that the clearing turn itself requires clearing. Really not suggesting not doing anything, just trying to understand the efficacy.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Are you saying that before turning base to final, you just make the turn (which in a low wing blocks the view) and don't take a look to clear the extended final since you might not see them anyway?
Click to expand...
Before we get too unhinged - this is one of the things I was asking for clarification. In a high wing do you do a wing lift (not the surgical procedure!) on traffic pattern turns? One CFI told me too risks to get uncoordinated. Another told me it's a must since high traffic area.

midlifeflyer said:
I think the answer is to go beyond rote memorization ("when does someone else expect me to do this?") and figure out the reason for doing clearing maneuvers ("I've been heading in the same direction for the last 10 minutes and I'm going to do a steep turn now. Maybe I should look to see if the area is clear?").
Click to expand...
100% Agree. I have to admit I posed my question this way since I was hoping the answer was a little more "black and white" and therefore more likely to get an answer. Also didn't want to look like I was just re-hashing those old posts I referenced.
 
Note that the ACS does not use the term "clearing turns". It simply says "clear the area". Now, the Airplane Flying Handbook does define clearing turns as the 90-left, 90-right that we all know and love, but the ACS doesn't specifically require that on the checkride.

Many DPEs, of course, do want to see the 90-deg turns, but I know of at least one who, quoting the ACS, just wants to see that you made some reasonably effective effort to clear the area using all methods available. Which would probably include a combination of turning, looking, and (gasp) taking a look at the ADS-B if installed, but 90 degree turns are not necessarily part of that.
 
Practicality:

1- The utility of clearing turns is less now that we have ADSB traffic. I didn’t say useless because ADSB is not fool proof. Being on flight following helps too.

2- When we get near the airport and in the pattern we ought to become more vigilant for traffic watching (kind of like when converging on a VOR in the “olden days”). I make one final look-see on base before turning final.

That’s clearing the area(s).
 
Other airplanes aren't the only thing we're looking for. Over the years I've had to dodge plenty of birds and more than 1 weather balloon. At least I think it was a balloon, they go by so fast it could be any kind of UFO, where F could mean "flying" or "floating". And now we also have drones, most of which are harder to see than balloons.
 
DCR said:
Before we get too unhinged - this is one of the things I was asking for clarification. In a high wing do you do a wing lift (not the surgical procedure!) on traffic pattern turns? One CFI told me too risks to get uncoordinated. Another told me it's a must since high traffic area.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. If, per one CFI, it’s too risky, I’d say it’s a much smaller risk than continuing with that CFI.
 
Brad W said:
and when we do, often it's a clearing turn...and then the student goes back to a heading, and starts slowly configuring such as a gradual slow down and feed in a little flaps... and then by the time the actual maneuver happens you're miles away from where you did the clearing turns and your bogey's that were beyond sight are now right on your tail....
Click to expand...
Even a student pilot should be able to slow down during the clearing turn, so that he’s immediately able to start configuring.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I just looked, and can’t find it…any idea where it is in the AFH?
Click to expand...

Top of page 1-12 says "there are many different types of clearing procedures" and references two 90° turns as one possible option.

Page 7-2 says "Pilots should always clear the area with two 90° clearing turns looking to the left and the right".
 
MacFlier said:
The DPE will expect you do clearing turns once going to the practice area before performing the first maneuver. My experience is that you don't need to do clearing turns before every single maneuver in the checkride.
Click to expand...
This has been my experience as well, They sort of figure most of the maneuvers include maneuvering are in them selves clearing turns.
But on the other hand the ones I have flown with seem hyper parnoid about watch for other traffic whether you are looking or they are. I think they feel traffic avoidance is as much their responsibility as it is yours, and they know just the fact you are doing a check ride is a distraction.
SixPapaCharlie said:
I'm gonna say it...

I am 1500 hours in and still don't understand clearing turns.
At best, I have about 2 mile eyeballs installed in my head and I can never spot traffic half the time even when pointed out (I know I am not the only one).
Left 90 look for a plane, don't see it then do the opposite and setup for a maneuver. Let's say power off stalls, by the time I setup for slow flight and get configured, etc any plane 2.1 miles away (or one I simply didn't spot) could be right there.

I kinda think clearing turns are just an item for a CFI / DPE to have something to ding you on.
Click to expand...

As already mentioned, it has a few reasons.
One is just to remind you to look. As I mentioned above check rides are pretty much self distracting, so making a point of actually looking for traffic is a good thing.
I agree most small airplanes are not visible beyond 2 miles. The exception is a bright landing light pointed at you, But you may not see that on the 90 degree traffic on a collision course for you.
(update, additional thought, the clearing turning, you or them, does momentarily point that landing light at the other aircraft, I am big fan of flying with landing lights on during the day time)
The other is that turning rolling and turning motion make you more visible to other aircraft, especially the one that might be following you that you can't see.

I have to admit after flying for many years at airports with very crowded unicom frequencies, I have become a bit of a minimalist on the radio. One call on downwind around the pattern is about the minimum required, otherwise you should know which airplane it is that you are talking to for addition calls. Listening and developing your situational awareness, is much better than a bunch of rote radio calls that everyone mostly ignores, and the may block important calls. Or pilots may even turn the radio down because they are tired of listening to you provide useless information. Sorry I have been that person, they were interfering with my cockpit communications. I already know you are in front me and I can see you, If I lose track of you I will let you know. Calls on the ground are usually useless, unless you are doing something unexpected. It's not likely I am going to collide with you, and I probably already have you in sight.
The exception is I have flown with a few pilots that are truly horrible at spotting aircraft , even less than 1/2 mile away, and they usually know they are horrible at it. These are the pilots will announce every leg of the pattern every time if there is another airplane in front of them, because they truly can't see the airplane in front of them. So when you hear pilots doing this, it can be a clue to you, or perhaps you should even ask if they see you. It just occurred to me that could be a factor in the recent Grumman/Cessna Collision, I could see that a pilot that knows he doesn't see traffic well would also think that losing a radio is an emergency , but in that case it would have been better to utilize his resources and ask is passenger to be looking, which I typically do during the preflight briefing anyway.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Last edited:
MauleSkinner said:
Even a student pilot should be able to slow down during the clearing turn, so that he’s immediately able to start configuring.
Click to expand...

Can confirm it takes about 30 minutes to overcome the mental block of "what to do next?", therefore putting us students at risk of fuel exhaustion to perform a simple clearing turn and single subsequent maneuver :oops:.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I just looked, and can’t find it…any idea where it is in the AFH?
Click to expand...
At least one spot is in Chapter 7, which is Ground Reference Maneuvers (which seems weird, I don't remember ever doing or really teaching clearing turns before doing S-turns, etc.)

"Pilots should always clear the area with two 90° clearing turns looking to the left and the right, as well as above and below the airplane."
 
DCR said:
Can confirm it takes about 30 minutes to overcome the mental block of "what to do next?", therefore putting us students at risk of fuel exhaustion to perform a simple clearing turn and single subsequent maneuver :oops:.
Click to expand...
You’d be amazed at what you could do if someone hadn’t told you it was too difficult. ;)
 
DCR said:
Before we get too unhinged - this is one of the things I was asking for clarification. In a high wing do you do a wing lift (not the surgical procedure!) on traffic pattern turns? One CFI told me too risks to get uncoordinated. Another told me it's a must since high traffic area.
Click to expand...
My question isn't, will you be uncoordinated. My question is, "will lifting a wing before the turn give you any information?" My comment was an invitation to think. Visualize this:

You are in a Cessna 172. You are on downwind. You look ahead and see no conflicting traffic ahead of you on downwind, base or final, or you see some and plan for spacing, right? Now you are on left base. You have the runway down and to your left, and final ahead and to your right. You are high wing, so during the entire process, you see there's no one below you. Just before turning final, you glance one more time to your right and there is still no conflicting traffic. You can see down and left toward the runway and when you make the turn, your right wing rises in case you are still worried.

So now, which wing are you going to raise and why?
 
  • Like
Reactions: DCR
DCR said:
Hello,

I know this is a somewhat boring topic that can somehow still be debated ad infinitum (see here and here), but I am specifically wondering about checkride expectations. Is this what is expected from most DPEs?: (I know, I know, "ask your CFI / DPE". Well, I'm on a break from training right now and apparently the best use of my time is to stir the pot a little on here. But I really do want to know.)

If you want to add what you do in your everyday flying I would be even more grateful!

Clearing turns (90° left then 90° right, or 180° turn):
- Required before practicing any of the ACS maneuvers (basically ACS section V. Perf and Ground Ref Maneuvers, VII. Slow flight and Stalls, and IX. Emergency Procedures)
- Just those "big maneuvers", right? Any other times?

Wing lift (small quick bank to check blind spot due to high wing):
- Do this before starting a clearing turn (i.e. peek under your left wing before banking into your left clearing turn)
- Traffic pattern turns??
- Turns to a heading??

In a climb
- Some wagging left and right in a climb to check under your nose (not a full clearing turn, just enough to check blind spot)

For reference training is being done in a 172 (when I resume).
Click to expand...
I do the wing lift in those situations and periodically while en route. I s turn on climb to get the cowl out of the way. I have even put the plane in a slip for a few seconds to do it. I always slip on final to do that and other legs of the pattern once descending. I plan my descent point to accommodate it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DCR
midlifeflyer said:
So now, which wing are you going to raise and why?
Click to expand...

You know, I have no f-in clue.

I would really like to take a closer look down extended final since that's where someone faster (i.e. everyone) might catch me -> lift right wing.

But I also want to check the blind spot above my wing before making the left turn onto final (you pointed out that I can see down final, but it's that plane above and left of me that I can't see) -> lift left wing.

Suggestions? Both seems ridiculously over cautious and dizzying, but if that's the world we live in...
 
Last edited:
DCR said:
You know, I have no f-in clue.

I would really like to take a closer look down extended final since that's where someone faster (i.e. everyone) might catch me -> lift right wing.

But I also want to check the blind spot above my wing before making the left turn onto final (you pointed out that I can see down final, but it's that plane above and left of me that I can't see) -> lift left wing.

Suggestions? Both seems ridiculously over cautious and dizzying, but if that's the world we live in...
Click to expand...
What about someone who decided to turn a closer base?
 
DCR said:
You know, I have no f-in clue.

I would really like to take a closer look down extended final since that's where someone faster (i.e. everyone) might catch me -> lift right wing.

But I also want to check the blind spot above my wing before making the left turn onto final (you pointed out that I can see down final, but it's that plane above and left of me that I can't see) -> lift left wing.

Suggestions? Both seems ridiculously over cautious and dizzying, but if that's the world we live in...
Click to expand...
I think it is. I don't know how you've been looking at but what I was describing was creating and double checking a mental picture of what is around me. If a disabled space vehicle suddenly hits me at terminal velocity after I turn final, my bad. Other than that, I've done everything, including lifting my right wing when I turned final.

Your issue with the question may be that you are inexperienced. You are probably still fixating on tiny trees and losing sight of the forest.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DCR
SixPapaCharlie said:
I'm gonna say it...

I am 1500 hours in and still don't understand clearing turns.
At best, I have about 2 mile eyeballs installed in my head and I can never spot traffic half the time even when pointed out (I know I am not the only one).
Left 90 look for a plane, don't see it then do the opposite and setup for a maneuver. Let's say power off stalls, by the time I setup for slow flight and get configured, etc any plane 2.1 miles away (or one I simply didn't spot) could be right there.

I kinda think clearing turns are just an item for a CFI / DPE to have something to ding you on.
Click to expand...
Clearing turns (that other planes perform) allow me to observe the activity of the traffic on ADSB or TCAS and ascertain their intentions. Also, I don't spot the airplane until they are in a bank and i see the outline of the wing. If I'm headed into a traffic area where other planes are doing clearing turns, I know they're training/testing and am able to apply specific avoidance procedures.

Although that didn't keep approach from vectoring me under a guy doing steep spirals which led to an RA... yeah i'm still mad.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Here's the thing. I don't see a difference. To me it's about looking for potential conflict before turning, not some rote memorization of "do it now" excluding "do it then."

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. What do you think is different between the need to (a) take a look before turning base to final; (b) take a look before turning enroute; and (c) take a look before the next maneuver in a perhaps busy practice area?
Click to expand...

Personally I do a 270 degree turn to the outside of each corner in the pattern to make sure there is not conflicting traffic.

In all seriousness, the difference between looking down the extended final or looking over your shoulder into a turn seem night and day to me compared to the 90-90 clearing turns. You honestly should expect other aircraft to be in the pattern and 9 times out of 10 there will be a Cirrus on a 10 mile final. If you're going to be taking up an area in the sky to do your practice maneuvers, sure, it makes sense to me why you'd want to try and take in a larger area visually to see if there is someone or something else flying around you.

But are you suggesting I should be doing 2 90s before I make an enroute turn? I feel like you're playing devil's advocate or being a bit cheeky by not seeing a difference (or I'm misreading what you're saying). If there was someone flying on a 180 heading and turned 90 left then 90 right then 45 left to make an enroute turn to 135, if I witnessed it with my eyes or saw them maneuvering on ADSB, I wouldn't have a guess what they were going to do next.
 
morleyz said:
Personally I do a 270 degree turn to the outside of each corner in the pattern to make sure there is not conflicting traffic.
Click to expand...
…and since all turns are to be to the left in the traffic pattern, this further de conflicts you by putting you on the opposite side of the runway from everybody else. ;)
 
I went through private, passed my cr and took my grandpa up for the first time since he had lost his medical. He was apoplectic that I didnt do a wing lift in the rented 172, and his lecture was the first I'd considered one. Now I always do, and think of him.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top