Cleared into Bravo?

orange

orange

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Orange
There was a discussion a couple of days ago about hearing the specific words to verify the clearance.

When flying from Long Island to the Hudson, I always call Kennedy to let them know I'm going westbound under their airspace. Sometimes I will get "cleared into the Bravo at or below 1000", or whatever, but usually they just say "stay at or below 500 along the coast".

I was listening to the tower yesterday and a GA pilot doing the same thing asked for 900. The Bravo floor there is 501. The tower responded with "Cleared as requested, altimeter xxx". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that is a Bravo clearance without actually hearing the words since it comes directly from the source.

Thanks
 
orange said:
There was a discussion a couple of days ago about hearing the specific words to verify the clearance.

When flying from Long Island to the Hudson, I always call Kennedy to let them know I'm going westbound under their airspace. Sometimes I will get "cleared into the Bravo at or below 1000", or whatever, but usually they just say "stay at or below 500 along the coast".

I was listening to the tower yesterday and a GA pilot doing the same thing asked for 900. The Bravo floor there is 501. The tower responded with "Cleared as requested, altimeter xxx". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that is a Bravo clearance without actually hearing the words since it comes directly from the source.

Thanks
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If I were that pilot, I would have confirmed "roger, N123 cleared into class bravo at 900, present position to yada yada via the shoreline" (or whatever route)
 
The guy just read it back as "As requested, 900 feet, Nxxx"
 
orange said:
The guy just read it back as "As requested, 900 feet, Nxxx"
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No harm, no foul. Particularly if the controller used the word "cleared".

Controllers tend not to obsess over the words "cleared into class bravo" as much as VFR pilots do, but the 7110.65 says they're suppose to. That's why confirming it is a good idea.
 
Did the pilot specifically request a Bravo transit? If yes he should be good to go, otherwise I also would have replied with "Cleared Bravo at 900 feet" as well just to be safe.
 
Cleared is the magic word here, and while we'd like to hear Bravo as well, the controller wouldn't/shouldn't say cleared unless it was truly a clearance. In this case, a Bravo clearance. Otherwise it would have just been "Proceed as requested."

I'd have readback with the word Bravo stuck in there, but the meaning was clear.
 
I'm with the others. If I don't specifically hear "Cleared into the Class Bravo", I will ask for clarification. It's my ticket, not the controllers.
 
Want to hear cleared into the bravo,when I need to hear the tapes,for any reason,I want those words to be there.
 
Always a god idea to clarify if there is ANY ambiguity, but nowhere does it say you must hear specifically and only "cleared into bravo". That is bit of a myth...you just need "clearance" to enter which was given in this case.

The request was of 900' which would put him in Bravo, the controller cleared him for that.

I get the same thing all the time in the SFO Bravo...I know the route for where I wanna go will be given is 3500' remain west of 280 freeway....so I make my call "request Bravo Clearance at 3500' remaining west of 280"...and the response I get from ATC usually is just "cleared as requested"
 
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Brad Z said:
Controllers tend not to obsess over the words "cleared into class bravo" as much as VFR pilots do, but the 7110.65 says they're suppose[d] to.
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Actually, 7100.65 7-9-2(a) allows the alternative phrasing "Cleared as requested" (followed by any additional instructions), which is what was overheard here.
 
acrophile said:
Actually, 7100.65 7-9-2(a) allows the alternative phrasing "Cleared as requested" (followed by any additional instructions), which is what was overheard here.
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Which is why I think it would be informative to know how the request was phrased.
 
orange said:
I was listening to the tower yesterday and a GA pilot doing the same thing asked for 900. The Bravo floor there is 501. The tower responded with "Cleared as requested, altimeter xxx". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that is a Bravo clearance without actually hearing the words since it comes directly from the source.

Thanks
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7110.65, section 7-9-2 says yes, that was a clearance to enter Bravo. There are two ways to do it - "Cleared through/to enter/out of Bravo" or "Cleared as requested".

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf

I am a little surprised, I've always been told it had to be "Cleared to enter Bravo".
 
orange said:
There was a discussion a couple of days ago about hearing the specific words to verify the clearance.

When flying from Long Island to the Hudson, I always call Kennedy to let them know I'm going westbound under their airspace. Sometimes I will get "cleared into the Bravo at or below 1000", or whatever, but usually they just say "stay at or below 500 along the coast".

I was listening to the tower yesterday and a GA pilot doing the same thing asked for 900. The Bravo floor there is 501. The tower responded with "Cleared as requested, altimeter xxx". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that is a Bravo clearance without actually hearing the words since it comes directly from the source.

Thanks
Click to expand...

91.131 just says you have to have a clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction; it doesn't specify a particular wording. (That's why IFR clearances are good for bravo entry.) So my non-expert opinion is that as long as the clearance received takes you into the bravo, the only essential word in a bravo clearance is "cleared."
 
This topic is a VFR and flight instructor obsession and almost an old wives tale by now. Don't need to hear the words verbatim. Nowhere is that defined. A clearance into Bravo implicitly implies this, or anything that clearly advises you to fly into it.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Which is why I think it would be informative to know how the request was phrased.
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There's no requirement for the pilot to mention Class B either, even if ATC responds with "Cleared as requested". But I agree it's a good idea, even though not required.
 
7−9−2. VFR AIRCRAFT IN CLASS B AIRSPACE
a. VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to operate in Class B airspace.

PHRASEOLOGY−
CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE,

and as appropriate,
VIA (route). MAINTAIN (altitude) WHILE IN BRAVO AIRSPACE.

or

CLEARED AS REQUESTED.
(Additional instructions, as necessary.)

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf
 
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5 posts within the last 5 minutes, all saying basically the same (correct) thing. I'd guess that means we only need another 2-3 pages to tie up the thread.
 
bflynn said:
5 posts within the last 5 minutes, all saying basically the same (correct) thing..
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But I had already posted the same information ten minutes before those five posts. :)
 
Not surprising. You read the post, but rather than get your head handed to you if you make a slight error in your post, you dig out your copy of 7110.65 but by then the ships have passed in the night and several other people are doing the same thing.
 
Hmmm... very interesting information. I've always learned/demanded the words "cleared" and "bravo" in the same transmission.

I had an exchange one time-

Controller: "Cleared as requested"
Me: "Cleared through the bravo?"
Controller: "Cleared as requested"
Me: "Please confirm cleared through the bravo!"
Controller: "Cleared as requested"
Me: "Please say cleared through bravo!"
Controller: "Cleared through the bravo. Sorry!"

I figured he was just being lazy, but now I know that is acceptable. I love this place!
 
I love these threads where people get nitpicky about phrasing. You're having a conversation with someone who is in charge of the airspace. That someone is the only one who is going to bust you for entering that airspace. If it's clear to both of you that you're gonna go from here to there, through his airspace, and he's made it clear he's cool with that it seems pretty unlikely that he's gonna suddenly start screaming at you for doing so because he didn't use the exact magic words.

Common sense people.
 
ahkahn said:
Hmmm... very interesting information. I've always learned/demanded the words "cleared" and "bravo" in the same transmission.

I had an exchange one time-

Controller: "Cleared as requested"
Me: "Cleared through the bravo?"
Controller: "Cleared as requested"
Me: "Please confirm cleared through the bravo!"
Controller: "Cleared as requested"
Me: "Please say cleared through bravo!"
Controller: "Cleared through the bravo. Sorry!"

I figured he was just being lazy, but now I know that is acceptable. I love this place!
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That sounds familiar to what I heard on NY approach one day. Controller gave him simple, climb maintain 2000. Pilot responded am I cleared into the bravo, controller said again snarky, climb maintain 2000. Pilot asked again am I cleared into the bravo airspace, controller, disregard remain clear of the class bravo airspace at or below 500.
 
Training out of KSLC, I have never heard the controllers NOT say "bravo" as part of the clearance. But it's an ATC training facility as well so I wonder if that is part of it.
 
flyingron said:
You read the post, but rather than get your head handed to you if you make a slight error in your post, you dig out your copy of 7110.65 but by then the ships have passed in the night and several other people are doing the same thing.
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"Dig out your copy"? How about highlight, right-click, click Search, and click on the actual regulation? It's instantaneous and guaranteed accurate and up-to-date.
 
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orange said:
There was a discussion a couple of days ago about hearing the specific words to verify the clearance.

When flying from Long Island to the Hudson, I always call Kennedy to let them know I'm going westbound under their airspace. Sometimes I will get "cleared into the Bravo at or below 1000", or whatever, but usually they just say "stay at or below 500 along the coast".

I was listening to the tower yesterday and a GA pilot doing the same thing asked for 900. The Bravo floor there is 501. The tower responded with "Cleared as requested, altimeter xxx". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that is a Bravo clearance without actually hearing the words since it comes directly from the source.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I assume nothing with airspace - many times I've had controllers give me a flight following at altitude without actually saying I was cleared into the Bravo. When this occurs, before I hit the airspace I call back and clarify the instructions; since everything is recorded I want it on record in the event anything happens. ATC helps me out so I try to do the same if something doesn't come back 100%.

I transit KPHL a lot for my animal rescue flights - just last weekend I was in a flight path that was going to take me through the second most inner ring - I was given approval for altitude and course but never officially cleared - even though I was under the outer shelf I was going to pass through the next ring where I would not have been - a 2 second call to ATC clarified I was cleared through the Bravo all the way.
 
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StinkBug said:
I love these threads where people get nitpicky about phrasing. You're having a conversation with someone who is in charge of the airspace. That someone is the only one who is going to bust you for entering that airspace. If it's clear to both of you that you're gonna go from here to there, through his airspace, and he's made it clear he's cool with that it seems pretty unlikely that he's gonna suddenly start screaming at you for doing so because he didn't use the exact magic words.

Common sense people.
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Well considering my private training and my private checkride both emphasised the terminology of "Cleared through the bravo!" and specifically the term, "bravo" without ANY deviation or alternative, I don't think it's a common sense issue. 7-10 years ago when I finished my PPL, bravo busts were a massive deal. At that point I wasn't willing to risk my ticket (or get into a ****ing match even though I'm right) for a simple lack of using the correct word.

Happy they've clarified that!
 
acrophile said:
"Dig out your copy"? How about highlight, right-click, click Search, and click on the actual regulation? It's instantaneous and guaranteed accurate and up-to-date.
Click to expand...

That was a figurative dig out. It's still not "instantatneous". In fact, I a simple google search of "CLEARED INTO THE CLASS BRAVO" even when coupled with 7110.65 didn't find the document. I suspect many did what I did which was dig the find the document first and then search within it.

Of course what your method does is find how many times this same discussion has occurred here and on the red board and other aviation forums.
 
While reading Order 7110.65 is informative, we need to keep in mind that it is not a regulation, and thus is not binding on pilots. What's binding on pilots is 14 CFR 91.131, because that is a regulation, and other than saying you need a "clearance" before operating in class B airspace, it doesn't specify any particular wording.
 
Yep, I guess if I was sitting on the ground at IAD and they cleared me to takeoff that would meet the letter of the law but they always give it to me prior to taxi (and until some change in 7110.65 used to say CLEARED INTO THE CLASS B rather than the current CLEARED OUT OF ...
 
flyingron said:
Yep, I guess if I was sitting on the ground at IAD and they cleared me to takeoff that would meet the letter of the law but they always give it to me prior to taxi (and until some change in 7110.65 used to say CLEARED INTO THE CLASS B rather than the current CLEARED OUT OF ...
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I don't pretend to know why they include specific things in their order to controllers.
 
ahkahn said:
Well considering my private training and my private checkride both emphasised the terminology of "Cleared through the bravo!" and specifically the term, "bravo" without ANY deviation or alternative, I don't think it's a common sense issue. 7-10 years ago when I finished my PPL, bravo busts were a massive deal. At that point I wasn't willing to risk my ticket (or get into a ****ing match even though I'm right) for a simple lack of using the correct word.

Happy they've clarified that!
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I agree with this. I got my private over 20 years ago, and I was told flat out never to accept anything but the magic words cleared into class Bravo.

A lot of time was spent on Class B operations (more specifically how to avoid it). during my entire training as well as during my oral and practical. On the few occasions that I have flown into Bravo airspace over the years, I did push them to use those words.

I am sure some of that came from training at an airport where the pattern altitude was 300' below the Bravo. I flew all my training as if there was a death ray a couple of feet over my head.

The alternate phraseology is definitely good to know.
 
Reedster said:
I agree with this. I got my private over 20 years ago, and I was told flat out never to accept anything but the magic words cleared into class Bravo.

A lot of time was spent on Class B operations (more specifically how to avoid it). during my entire training as well as during my oral and practical. On the few occasions that I have flown into Bravo airspace over the years, I did push them to use those words.

I am sure some of that came from training at an airport where the pattern altitude was 300' below the Bravo. I flew all my training as if there was a death ray a couple of feet over my head.

The alternate phraseology is definitely good to know.
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Funny Reed, me too... Which airport are you out of? I'm 1C5 (KLOT temporarily).
 
ahkahn said:
Funny Reed, me too... Which airport are you out of? I'm 1C5 (KLOT temporarily).
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Naper. I did my primary at the old Schaumburg. Lewis has some definite advantages. When is Clow reopening?
 
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StinkBug said:
I love these threads where people get nitpicky about phrasing. You're having a conversation with someone who is in charge of the airspace. That someone is the only one who is going to bust you for entering that airspace. If it's clear to both of you that you're gonna go from here to there, through his airspace, and he's made it clear he's cool with that it seems pretty unlikely that he's gonna suddenly start screaming at you for doing so because he didn't use the exact magic words.

Common sense people.
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Agreed. Never had an issue with this situation, and as I noted above, it's quite common to not hear the magic words, nor even the word "clearance". Just "N12345, proceed direct XYZ, descend and maintain 3000". It's his/her airspace, and I do what I am told there, VFR or IFR, and don't insist on open-sesame's or secret handshakes.
 
Reedster said:
Naper. I did my primary at the old Schaumburg. Lewis has some definite advantages. When is Clow reopening?
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They started laying the asphalt this past week. Last update was mid-end November.

I have a buddy that lives in Naper. I've landed there several times. Would love to move there!



**Sorry for the two-way thread drift!**
 
RotorDude said:
Agreed. Never had an issue with this situation, and as I noted above, it's quite common to not hear the magic words, nor even the word "clearance". Just "N12345, proceed direct XYZ, descend and maintain 3000". It's his/her airspace, and I do what I am told there, VFR or IFR, and don't insist on open-sesame's or secret handshakes.
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Until something happens and everyone sits down and listens to tapes and then the FAA asks, "Pilot, why didn't you clarify if you were cleared into he Bravo?" Of course ATC would be at fault for not saying it initially, but to me it's semantics. If Mr. owner of the Bravo airspace is going to let me into it, I'm going to ask specifically in case he forgets to mention it.

I may be PIC but I always try to work with ATC on any requests unless I am truly unable (clouds/obstructions,etc).
 
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