Class D and C overfly

[cleared4theoption]

So, I am pretty sure there is no reg about this, but just curious about something. If you are planning to overfly a Class D or C airport's airspace(and I mean like going to 4000 to go over a 3600 ft class D ceiling...not 18,000 ft above it), is it common or expected to contact the tower and let them know? ...or would that be an unnecessary use of tower frequency space?

 

[airguy]

So, I am pretty sure there is no reg about this, but just curious about something. If you are planning to overfly a Class D or C airport's airspace(and I mean like going to 4000 to go over a 3600 ft class D ceiling...not 18,000 ft above it), is it common or expected to contact the tower and let them know? ...or would that be an unnecessary use of tower frequency space?

Unnecessary, but fairly common. I do it when I'm going to cross over just above their airspace. If you're on flight following or talking to approach, there is no need because they are already talking to each other on landline channels.

 

[DaleB]

What perfect timing!! I was about to ask the exact same question.

 

[HerrGruyere]

I don't think you would need to if you are outside of their airspace boundaries.

 

[Sac Arrow]

No reason to whatsoever, and I've heard tower operators get indignant over it before.

But, I've also had a tower ask if I was still on frequency outside their airspace after departure to give me a traffic advisory too.

 

[poadeleted20]

So, I am pretty sure there is no reg about this, but just curious about something. If you are planning to overfly a Class D or C airport's airspace(and I mean like going to 4000 to go over a 3600 ft class D ceiling...not 18,000 ft above it), is it common or expected to contact the tower and let them know? ...or would that be an unnecessary use of tower frequency space?

Neither required nor expected nor common. If you want to talk to someone above the top of C/D airspace, call the TRACON, not the tower. And if you call the tower like that, that's probably what they'll tell you to do, e.g., "Cessna 123, at 3000 feet you're above my airspace; for traffic advisories, contact Patuxent Approach on 127.95."

 

[poadeleted21]

I wouldn't do it, unless you just want to hear "Cessna 99J, Contact Approach for flight following". Only contact the tower first you're not on FF are near their airspace (Those little flags are good spots) and intend on entering their airspace. Otherwise, they don't want to hear from you.

 

[MAKG1]

Usually, I have flight following, so it's not a factor.

But once, I contacted KRHV tower to overfly. They told me to approach straight in for 30R and report 2 mile final.

My guess is this is not common, though ATC mistakes are not terribly rare in other circumstances.

 

[bobmrg]

Completely unnecessary in the case of Class D. It's not their airspace and they have no interest in who flies in it. Overflying Class C is something else again...the purpose of Class C is to ensure that the controlling facility knows who is flying in their airspace and what their intentions are. IMHO it helps the controllers to know the intentions of a pilot who is just passing through. Of course, if you use radar flight following (as you should), the issue is moot.

Bob Gardner

 

[roncachamp]

So, I am pretty sure there is no reg about this, but just curious about something. If you are planning to overfly a Class D or C airport's airspace(and I mean like going to 4000 to go over a 3600 ft class D ceiling...not 18,000 ft above it), is it common or expected to contact the tower and let them know? ...or would that be an unnecessary use of tower frequency space?

An unnecessary use of tower frequency space. However, if you plan to overfly Class C airspace you might as well contact approach and partake of Class C services.

 

[jnmeade]

Only if I'm already on flight following. Otherwise, I listen on their approach frequency often but don't talk. Why would I want to talk to them? So they can tell me to fly something other than what I am or want to for their convenience, not mine?

 

[cleared4theoption]

So...NO is the consensus..

 

[roncachamp]

Only if I'm already on flight following. Otherwise, I listen on their approach frequency often but don't talk. Why would I want to talk to them? So they can tell me to fly something other than what I am or want to for their convenience, not mine?

You only call the tower if you're already on flight following?

 

[poadeleted21]

in my experience if you call up a class D tower with no intentions of entering their airspace, they'll give you a more appropriate frequency to be on. It's just the wrong way to do things. If you want to talk to ATC call up approach and ask for traffic advisories.

 

[MAKG1]

Completely unnecessary in the case of Class D. It's not their airspace and they have no interest in who flies in it. Overflying Class C is something else again...the purpose of Class C is to ensure that the controlling facility knows who is flying in their airspace and what their intentions are. IMHO it helps the controllers to know the intentions of a pilot who is just passing through. Of course, if you use radar flight following (as you should), the issue is moot.

Bob Gardner

Bob, I've monitored LVK's tower while practicing south of their airspace. I've heard them give traffic warnings about me to departing aircraft (and then repositioned myself to get out of the way). That would seem to be an interest.

 

[Geico266]

Make sure your transponder is on. Legally necessary, but really nice to let them know you are there.

This goes for Bravo also, but I think the transponder must be on. I don't remember chapter and verse because I just leave the transponder on in alt mode.

 

[poadeleted20]

Only if I'm already on flight following. Otherwise, I listen on their approach frequency often but don't talk. Why would I want to talk to them? So they can tell me to fly something other than what I am or want to for their convenience, not mine?

Perhaps so they can tell you if they see something that you didn't.

 

[roncachamp]

Make sure your transponder is on. Legally necessary, but really nice to let them know you are there.

This goes for Bravo also, but I think the transponder must be on. I don't remember chapter and verse because I just leave the transponder on.

If you have a transponder it must be on in all controlled airspace and you'll always be in controlled airspace when overflying Class D, C, and B airspace.

 

[MAKG1]

You also need it to be broadcasting altitude (Mode C) when overflying or underflying B or C up to 10,000 feet, and within 30 miles of "specified" airports. Not just on.

14 CFR 91.215(b)

 

[poadeleted20]

If you have a transponder it must be on in all controlled airspace

...as long as it's current per 91.413. Or are you assuming all installed transponders are 91.413-current?

 

[roncachamp]

...as long as it's current per 91.413. Or are you assuming all installed transponders are 91.413-current?

You're missing the obvious again. Can you guess what that is?

 

[kimberlyanne546]

My memory is rough on this one but I think my CFI during training had me call up a Class D for the transition. It was because the day was hot and we were not climbing out that fast, perhaps he just wanted me to see how it was done. We had taken off from an airport that was very close to the 5 mile "circle" drawn on the map of the Class D and it was more convenient to fly in the 152 through their airspace rather than around it (mountains, terrain, etc). Maybe he just wanted to get us home and on to his next student (he always was busy with students back to back).

 

[Captain]

If you are not going to enter the airspace then don't call. If you want to enter the airspace then call. If you're going to call the tower to let them know you're going to over fly the class D then you should also call Pizza Hut to notify them you are going to over fly their pizza joint.

 

[poadeleted20]

You're missing the obvious again. Can you guess what that is?

Yes -- that what you assume is rarely obvious to anyone else. :bye:

 

[roncachamp]

Yes -- that what you assume is rarely obvious to anyone else. :bye:

Wrong, and you wont learn anything if you leave.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I think he's saying it's a requirement to have an operable and calibrated transponder to begin with, excepting those airplanes for which aren't so equipped.

 

[dukeblue219]

I'm not sure I've overflown a D near its ceiling without being on Flight Following in a long time, but I would at least recommend listening to the frequency if you decide not to call up (which most people seem to agree is unnecessary). You'll probably even be able to hear them refer to you as something like "VFR traffic indicating 3,500, type unknown". Of course, if they don't have any radar display then they won't even know that you exist anyway.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I'm not sure I've overflown a D near its ceiling without being on Flight Following in a long time, but I would at least recommend listening to the frequency if you decide not to call up (which most people seem to agree is unnecessary). You'll probably even be able to hear them refer to you as something like "VFR traffic indicating 3,500, type unknown". Of course, if they don't have any radar display then they won't even know that you exist anyway.

I do try to scan the freq's if and when I'm flying without flight following near a towered or non-towered airport. I have almost always heard them call me out to other planes, just as you describe, even though I'm not talking to them.

 

[roncachamp]

I'm not sure I've overflown a D near its ceiling without being on Flight Following in a long time, but I would at least recommend listening to the frequency if you decide not to call up (which most people seem to agree is unnecessary). You'll probably even be able to hear them refer to you as something like "VFR traffic indicating 3,500, type unknown". Of course, if they don't have any radar display then they won't even know that you exist anyway.

If they do have a radar display and you're on flight following, they'll probably have a data block showing the N-number, aircraft type, and Mode C altitude which will have been confirmed by the radar controller.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think he's saying it's a requirement to have an operable and calibrated transponder to begin with, excepting those airplanes for which aren't so equipped.

If so, he's wrong. There's plenty of controlled airspace where there is no requirement for a transponder regardless of whether or not your airplane originally came with an electrical system. And there's no requirement to keep an installed transponder in certification if you don't go where 91.215 says an operable transponder is required (and don't turn it past standby elsewhere).

 

[Sac Arrow]

If so, he's wrong. There's plenty of controlled airspace where there is no requirement for a transponder regardless of whether or not your airplane originally came with an electrical system. And there's no requirement to keep an installed transponder in certification if you don't go where 91.215 says an operable transponder is required (and don't turn it past standby elsewhere).

I have to tell you, FAR 91.215 confuses the hell out of me. Paragraph C

(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with Sec. 91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC.

Seems to imply that one has to have transponder, and turned on in all airspace except G,

Even though Paragraph B

(1) All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;
(2) All aircraft. In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

Doesn't include either D or E.


What gives? What FAR definatively lists where and where not a transponder is required?

 

[Brad Z]

As others have mentioned, there is no need whatsoever to call the tower overflying class D airspace. For many some controllers it's like nails on chalkboard.

While I'm at it, please refrain from making position reports on CTAF because you happen to be overflying a non-towered airport at 3,500. As much as we'd all like to hear about your cross country flight, unless you're dropping skydivers, it's really unecessary.

 

[cleared4theoption]

I have to tell you, FAR 91.215 confuses the hell out of me. Paragraph C

(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with Sec. 91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC.

Seems to imply that one has to have transponder, and turned on in all airspace except G,

Even though Paragraph B

(1) All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;
(2) All aircraft. In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

Doesn't include either D or E.


What gives? What FAR definatively lists where and where not a transponder is required?

Clear as mud

 

[JoeSelch]

As others have mentioned, there is no need whatsoever to call the tower overflying class D airspace. For many some controllers it's like nails on chalkboard.

While I'm at it, please refrain from making position reports on CTAF because you happen to be overflying a non-towered airport at 3,500. As much as we'd all like to hear about your cross country flight, unless you're dropping skydivers, it's really unecessary.

LOL. Had a guy the other day updating his position every couple of minutes as he approached, overflew and flew away from an uncontrolled field at 3,500+ AGL.
Should have checked to see whether he was making the rounds of the CTAFs of other nearby airports.

 

[jnmeade]

You only call the tower if you're already on flight following?

I've probably been switched to approach on Class C because they want to talk to me up to 10,000'. On Class D, which doesn't need to talk to anyone above their airspace, I don't talk to tower but stay with Center unless they switch me.

 

[jnmeade]

Perhaps so they can tell you if they see something that you didn't.

One can make that point. I doubt if my perspective is of enough interest for me to go into it.

 

[poadeleted20]

Read again the part I emphasized:

I have to tell you, FAR 91.215 confuses the hell out of me. Paragraph C

(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with Sec. 91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC.

So, it...

Seems to imply that one has to have transponder, and turned on in all airspace except G,

...only when the airplane is equipped with a transponder and it is maintained in accordance with Sec. 91.413 of this part. If it is not so maintained, it must not be turned on at all -- see 91.413:

Sec. 91.413

ATC transponder tests and inspections.

(a) No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in 91.215(a), 121.345(c), or Sec. 135.143(c) of this chapterunless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this chapter;

Obviously, if you're in one of those areas where a transponder is required, such as above 10,000 MSL or in Class B airspace, you must have a tranponder, it must be 91.413-certified, and it must be turned on. However, if you are not in one of those areas where a transponder is required, such as most Class E below 10,000 MSL, then you are not required to have a transponder, but if you do have one and it is 91.413-current, you must turn it on. OTOH, in that transponder-not-required airspace, if you do have one but it is not 91.413-current, you are not allowed to turn it on.

Got it?

 

[Captain]

I got an idea...buy and maintain a xponder and always turn it on with mode C when flying...always.

 

[Datadriver]

Don't call them. I routinely fly over class C.

 

[poadeleted20]

I got an idea...buy and maintain a xponder and always turn it on with mode C when flying...always.

That works. But it's not an idea that appeals to the rather vocal and vorciferous anti-authoritarian segment of PoA's membership.