Class D and C overfly

Well, it should appeal to anybody. No transponder means no TCAS target for me and I fly fast...always. 250 kts to 5 to 10 out unless below class B or it's real choppy.

Yes I look out the window...but not always (other duties and such) and the TCAS up your chances of me seeing you by a bunch.
 
Regarding controlled airspace- In the AIM
3−2−1. General​
a. Controlled Airspace. ​
​
​
​
A generic term that
covers the different classification of airspace
(Class A, Class B, Class C, Class D, and Class E
airspace) and defined dimensions within which air
traffic control service is provided to IFR flights and
to VFR flights in accordance with the airspace​

classification. (See FIG 3−2−1.)

3−2−6. Class E Airspace​
a. Definition.​
​
​
​
​
Generally, if the airspace is not
Class A, Class B, Class C, or Class D, and it is​

controlled airspace, it is Class E airspace.

The only time the AIM refers to Class E Airspace and controlled is regarding IFR Operation. Such as
2. Extension to a surface area.​
​
​
​
​
There are
Class E airspace areas that serve as extensions to
Class B, Class C, and Class D surface areas
designated for an airport. Such airspace provides
controlled airspace to contain standard instrument
approach procedures without imposing a communications​

requirement on pilots operating under VFR.
 
Ron Levy said:
Read again the part I emphasized:So, it...

...only when the airplane is equipped with a transponder and it is maintained in accordance with Sec. 91.413 of this part. If it is not so maintained, it must not be turned on at all -- see 91.413:
Click to expand...

So who do you imagine chooses to equip an airplane with a transponder and chooses not to maintain it IAW 91.413?
 
Ron Levy said:
Read again the part I emphasized:So, it...

...only when the airplane is equipped with a transponder and it is maintained in accordance with Sec. 91.413 of this part. If it is not so maintained, it must not be turned on at all -- see 91.413:
Obviously, if you're in one of those areas where a transponder is required, such as above 10,000 MSL or in Class B airspace, you must have a tranponder, it must be 91.413-certified, and it must be turned on. However, if you are not in one of those areas where a transponder is required, such as most Class E below 10,000 MSL, then you are not required to have a transponder, but if you do have one and it is 91.413-current, you must turn it on. OTOH, in that transponder-not-required airspace, if you do have one but it is not 91.413-current, you are not allowed to turn it on.

Got it?
Click to expand...

That actually is quite informative. But I still don't understand, with strict reference to the FAR's, where a transponder is required and where it isn't.

It's not a practical issue for me as I always have my 91.413 current transponder turned on, but this question does come up in flight reviews, and, just for my own sanity, I'd like to know.
 
Mode C veil, above 10k, above class C.

What'd I miss?
 
Oops,

Mode C veil, above 10K, in and above Class C.


Add also: all of it waiverable (except maybe the 10K, but I'd bet even that could be done)
 
Ron Levy said:
The people whom I've showed up to train and found they didn't. Yes, Steven, they do exist.
Click to expand...

Did any of them happen to mention why they chose to equip an airplane with a transponder but chose not to maintain it IAW 91.413?
 
Sac Arrow said:
That actually is quite informative. But I still don't understand, with strict reference to the FAR's, where a transponder is required and where it isn't.
Click to expand...
Captain's "quick and dirty" final answer ("Mode C veil, above 10K, in and above Class C") is close to the reg for all practical purposes if you have an electrical system. There is an exception to the "above 10K MSL" rule for high elevations, where you can operate below 2500 AGL without a transponder, and there are some exceptions for aircraft which never had an electrical system, but what he said will get you by. And, as noted by others, if you have a problem with your transponder, it is in most cases easy to get ATC to let you go through if you call ahead for permission.
 
roncachamp said:
Did any of them happen to mention why they chose to equip an airplane with a transponder but chose not to maintain it IAW 91.413?
Click to expand...
No, they didn't. If I had to guess, I would say either ignorance or misunderstanding of the rules. For example, when giving folks instrument training, I've found some who believed incorrectly that the 91.413 checks were, like the 91.411 altimeter/static check, required only for IFR operations.
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
No, they didn't. If I had to guess, I would say either ignorance or misunderstanding of the rules. For example, when giving folks instrument training, I've found some who believed incorrectly that the 91.413 checks were, like the 91.411 altimeter/static check, required only for IFR operations.
Click to expand...

Bingo! They don't make that choice, they just don't know. Do you now understand why message #20 was a waste of bandwidth?
 
roncachamp said:
Bingo! They don't make that choice, they just don't know. Do you now understand why message #20 was a waste of bandwidth?
Click to expand...
Actually, I've also seen folks who couldn't get to the shop before it ran out and operated "transponder off" until they did. So, I think the only waste of bandwith here is...never mind.
 
Ron Levy said:
Captain's "quick and dirty" final answer ("Mode C veil, above 10K, in and above Class C") is close to the reg for all practical purposes if you have an electrical system. There is an exception to the "above 10K MSL" rule for high elevations, where you can operate below 2500 AGL without a transponder, and there are some exceptions for aircraft which never had an electrical system, but what he said will get you by. And, as noted by others, if you have a problem with your transponder, it is in most cases easy to get ATC to let you go through if you call ahead for permission.
Click to expand...

So, where, at least my confusion was, was in the 91.215 requirement to turn your currently maintained Mode C transponder on if you had one, even in areas where you weren't required to have one in the first place.

"Where must you have one" and "when must you turn it on" are two separate questions, with answers that don't on the surface appear entirely logical.

Okay so that clears that up. Thank you.
 
Sac Arrow said:
So, where, at least my confusion was, was in the 91.215 requirement to turn your currently maintained Mode C transponder on if you had one, even in areas where you weren't required to have one in the first place.
Click to expand...
That is the situation -- if you have it, and it works, and it's in currency, it must be on in all controlled airspace. If you have one but it is not in currency, you must leave it off, and then you either stay out of transponder-required airspace or obtain prior permission to go in there with it off.

"Where must you have one" and "when must you turn it on" are two separate questions, with answers that don't on the surface appear entirely logical.
Click to expand...
We're talking FAA, not logic.

Okay so that clears that up. Thank you.
Click to expand...
You're welcome.
 
You're still allowed to turn it off at FL363 when ATC asks you to verify altitude and you realize you forgot to set 29.92 while you set it and get back on altitude claiming to 'switch transponders' though, right?
 
Captain said:
You're still allowed to turn it off at FL363 when ATC asks you to verify altitude and you realize you forgot to set 29.92 while you set it and get back on altitude claiming to 'switch transponders' though, right?
Click to expand...
Seems to me I read an enforcement case where someone tried that. The FAA was not amused.
 
Ron Levy said:
Actually, I've also seen folks who couldn't get to the shop before it ran out and operated "transponder off" until they did. So, I think the only waste of bandwith here is...never mind.
Click to expand...

I'll take that as a "No."
 
Ron Levy said:
Take it any way you like, Steve. Since you're the one who thinks "continuously" is the same as "only when open for business," I'm way past figuring out your dictionary.
Click to expand...

Incredible. Here's the requirement from Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control:

2−4−2. MONITORING

Monitor interphones and assigned radio frequencies
continuously.

NOTE−
Although all FAA facilities, including RAPCONs and
RATCFs, are required to monitor all assigned frequencies
continuously, USAF facilities may not monitor all
unpublished discrete frequencies.
Click to expand...


Yes, Ron, as I understand the word as it is used here it means at all times the facility is open. Every dictionary I've ever laid eyes on is consistent with that understanding. As you understand the word it means "around the clock", which obviously must include the period when the facility is closed. Can you cite a dictionary that is consistent with that understanding?
 
Ones Captain missed in the FARs:

- DC SFRA and FRZ
- ADIZ
- Maryland Three Airports

AIM:

- Any airport with RWSL
- Upon starting motion on the ground at any airport
- In Class G (yep)
- Entering a U.S. Offshore Airspace Area from another country
- RVSM Airspace
- ADIZ again (unnecessary duplication)
- During certain defined emergencies
 
roncachamp said:
Incredible. Here's the requirement from Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control:




Yes, Ron, as I understand the word as it is used here it means at all times the facility is open. Every dictionary I've ever laid eyes on is consistent with that understanding. As you understand the word it means "around the clock", which obviously must include the period when the facility is closed. Can you cite a dictionary that is consistent with that understanding?
Click to expand...
Look back up the thread for the definition I quoted from the Free Dictionary. Or try any dictionary you please. If you can find one that says "continuously" meand "all the time except when not operating," let me know.
 
Ron Levy said:
Look back up the thread for the definition I quoted from the Free Dictionary. Or try any dictionary you please. If you can find one that says "continuously" meand "all the time except when not operating," let me know.
Click to expand...

That would be:

con·tin·u·ous (k n-t n y - s). adj. 1. Uninterrupted in time, sequence, substance, or extent.
Click to expand...

Your interpretation, that "uninterrupted in time" means "around the clock", is incorrect. If it was as you believe the FAA would be requiring part-time ATC facilities to monitor frequencies when they were closed. That's absurd.

Previously I considered you to be a man with an extraordinarily large ego, but of only average intelligence. I clearly gave you credit for more intelligence than you possess.
 
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