Claims of Shoddy Production at Boeing plant in N. Charleston SC

mryan75 said:
Except of course that apparently those toothless south Carolinians can't read the directions and will put the plane together the wrong way around. A LADDER in the tail?
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I'm betting it was a cable tray, not a ladder.

ladder-type-cable-trays-250x250-250x250.jpg

Ron Wanttaja
 
I wouldn't be surprised if there are individuals (either either the Seattle area or South Carolina) that are deliberately messing up airplanes, but I strongly doubt it's any sort of effort driven by the union in Seattle. The union is trying to justify Boeing retaining production in the Seattle area; making deliberate mistakes does not help their case.

Ron Wanttaja
 
topcat2001 said:
Amazing how people throw in bizarre anti-union statements with no evidence while completely ignoring the copious evidence of shoddy practices in the South Carolina plant in the article.
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Denying the presence of typical union tactics used in attempting to organize the South Carolina Boeing plant is much more bizarre than any comments made in this thread.

There is evidence the IAM has used subterfuge and bullying in attempting to coerce plant workers into signing union authorization cards. These tactics included unannounced visits to worker's homes.

The IAM used political manuevering and lobbying to bring complaints against Boeing to the NRLB, and the board, which had shown its pro-union bias in the controversial Browning-Ferris Industries of Cal., Inc. v. NLRB decision in 2015 (since overturned) and other decisions during the Obama administration, accommodated the IAM's demands for a union election.

The union suffered a huge defeat in the election, with 74% of the 2,600 employees rejecting union representation. Only 2.6% of the South Carolina workforce is unionized.

Last year the union engineered a successful vote of a 189 member "micro unit" at the plant, which gives the IAM a toehold at the facility. The final outcome remains to be seen.

I hope members and the MC will recognize my dispassionate response is simply a recitation of facts, and will not consider it political speech which might result in closing the thread.
 
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wsuffa said:
NYT blocks private mode reading, so I won't be reading the article. But I do note that the NYT does have an agenda and strong bias even in "factual" reporting.
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The NYT can't even keep politics off the sports page. At least, the one issue I looked at in NYC years ago was that way. I don't read the NYT.
 
3393RP said:
Denying the presence of typical union tactics used in attempting to organize the South Carolina Boeing plant is much more bizarre than any comments made in this thread.

There is evidence the IAM has used subterfuge and bullying in attempting to coerce plant workers into signing union authorization cards. These tactics included unannounced visits to worker's homes.

The IAM used political manuevering and lobbying to bring complaints against Boeing to the NRLB, and the board, which had shown its pro-union bias in the controversial Browning-Ferris Industries of Cal., Inc. v. NLRB decision in 2015 (since overturned) and other decisions during the Obama administration, accommodated the IAM's demands for a union election.

The union suffered a huge defeat in the election, with 74% of the 2,600 employees rejecting union representation. Only 2.6% of the South Carolina workforce is unionized.

Last year the union engineered a successful vote of a 189 member "micro unit" at the plant, which gives the IAM a toehold at the facility. The final outcome remains to be seen.

I hope members and the MC will recognize my dispassionate response is simply a recitation of facts, and will not consider it political speech which might result in closing the thread.
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Dispassionate and factual but perhaps entirely one sided because there is no mention of management intent and actions. There’s an implied presumption that pro-union is bad and anti-union is good, and that those qualities are intrinsic to unions independent of context whether it be in terms of the company, the workplace or the industry.

I spent a career, mostly in management, of in a very successful and vehemently anti-union company. For most of my time there, the company earned the right to take such a stance by providing workers with the pay, workplace, loyalty and respect they deserve. Case in point, whistle blowers, along with the whiners and complainers that occasionally impersonate them, were respected and protected by management, often to the dismay of inept managers.

But this situation deteriorated as the business entered turbulent waters and we failed to navigate them as successfully as we had in the past. Lackluster growth and missed opportunities caused the kind of stress on shareholders, management and the workforce where a previously productive relationship begins to falter. That’s the cycle of companies, industries and life.

However, when a ship falters in turbulent waters and eventually founders, do you blame the captain and her officers, or do you blame the folks on the oars and the engine room? Each faction has its role but workers and their organization neither sink ships or navigate them to nirvana. They just work, ideally with pride and energy in their jobs.

I also spent a short time working in a heavily unionized company and industry as a union worker. There was good pay and a lot of stupid union mandated practices. But the little bit of management I saw was as decrepit as the business. Those unions were there because workers were historically treated worse than lumps of coal. Union influence was responsible for the good pay and my ability to survive on the work floor with all my body parts intact long enough to move on.

Throughout industrial history there has been a back and forth between recognizing the power of capitalism, markets, and management leadership versus the need to treat and manage workers with care and respect. Organization happens to be the best way for workers to counterbalance the power of money and ownership

There are not two sides to every story but in the case of unions and companies, there is. Factual dispassion requires acknowledging it.



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Bill Watson said:
Dispassionate and factual but perhaps entirely one sided because there is no mention of management intent and actions. There’s an implied presumption that pro-union is bad and anti-union is good, and that those qualities are intrinsic to unions independent of context whether it be in terms of the company, the workplace or the industry.

I spent a career, mostly in management, of in a very successful and vehemently anti-union company. For most of my time there, the company earned the right to take such a stance by providing workers with the pay, workplace, loyalty and respect they deserve. Case in point, whistle blowers, along with the whiners and complainers that occasionally impersonate them, were respected and protected by management, often to the dismay of inept managers.

But this situation deteriorated as the business entered turbulent waters and we failed to navigate them as successfully as we had in the past. Lackluster growth and missed opportunities caused the kind of stress on shareholders, management and the workforce where a previously productive relationship begins to falter. That’s the cycle of companies, industries and life.

However, when a ship falters in turbulent waters and eventually founders, do you blame the captain and her officers, or do you blame the folks on the oars and the engine room? Each faction has its role but workers and their organization neither sink ships or navigate them to nirvana. They just work, ideally with pride and energy in their jobs.

I also spent a short time working in a heavily unionized company and industry as a union worker. There was good pay and a lot of stupid union mandated practices. But the little bit of management I saw was as decrepit as the business. Those unions were there because workers were historically treated worse than lumps of coal. Union influence was responsible for the good pay and my ability to survive on the work floor with all my body parts intact long enough to move on.

Throughout industrial history there has been a back and forth between recognizing the power of capitalism, markets, and management leadership versus the need to treat and manage workers with care and respect. Organization happens to be the best way for workers to counterbalance the power of money and ownership

There are not two sides to every story but in the case of unions and companies, there is. Factual dispassion requires acknowledging it.



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Great summary!

My observation is that there are union abuses, and there are corporate abuses. The root cause, in my opinion, is that both types of organization are composed of human beings.
 
Bill Watson said:
Dispassionate and factual but perhaps entirely one sided because there is no mention of management intent and actions.
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There is no requirement I provide both sides of a situation when commenting on a subject.

I believe the claim management holds blame is a typical knee jerk response to criticism of union organizing activities. In this case, the factory was new, so your analogy of a foundering ship in turbulent waters created by management is unsupported.
 
3393RP said:
There is no requirement I provide both sides of a situation when commenting on a subject.

I believe the claim management holds blame is a typical knee jerk response to criticism of union organizing activities. In this case, the factory was new, so your analogy of a foundering ship in turbulent waters created by management is unsupported.
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Not sure what you mean here, but management is not just about a building...
It’s managing the human and other resources. A brand spanking shiny new building isn’t what promotes quality control. Workers that care about the work, teams working as such, common goal, high standards. Have not a lot to do with the building.

Or did I misunderstand your point?
 
3393RP said:
I believe the claim management holds blame is a typical knee jerk response to criticism of union organizing activities. In this case, the factory was new, so your analogy of a foundering ship in turbulent waters created by management is unsupported.
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New facility, but same old company. Policies set by corporate headquarters in Chicago, management training is standardized (my boss was sent to St. Louis for her management training), aircraft built to the same PROs (Boeing standards). The badges are common. Even the paint scheme on the buildings is the same.

The only thing different between the Seattle-area manufacturing and that in South Carolina is that one is a union shop, and the other isn't. Yet both sites are apparently suffering the same sort of quality issues. The common denominator IS management, both in the form of leadership and in the ability to develop and support effective quality control processes.

One of the complaints about unions is that it's harder fire sub-standard employees. This SHOULD mean that heads will be freely rolling in South Carolina, without a union to protect them. Probably not going to happen.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Lachlan said:
But a surgeon forgets one teeny tiny scalpel in some guy’s gut, and the hoardes and mobs want the poor Doc’s head!
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I used to know a guy, now passed, who once had to have a second surgery to remove a left-behind pair of scissors. I'm sure the medical staff does not call them scissors, but that's what this guy called them.
 
Fallsrider said:
I used to know a guy, now passed, who once had to have a second surgery to remove a left-behind pair of scissors. I'm sure the medical staff does not call them scissors, but that's what this guy called them.
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The few time I’ve had surgery, throat surgery once and an emergency appendicitis, when I was being wheeled up to the operating theatre, surgeon or someone in a surgical mask, both time poke their head out the door watching me be rolled up to it, asked if I was me. I said I was, but also as they turned stopped them and asked “and what do YOU all have planned for me? What is the operation you are performing?”

If I were having a knee operated on, would definitely get a red magic marker and write on the other knee “NOT THIS ONE, the other knee!”

Ditto anything I have a pair of. It happens too often, and is really hard to understand how it could, that the surgeons have cut open the wrong knee/leg/foot, and even amputated the wrong one.

Heard of two cases this year. One some one from the hospital said something about “well, it was Friday afternoon, the team wanted to go home, etc.” totally serious here.
 
FastEddieB said:
The NY Times has a daily podcast, conveniently called “The Daily”.

Yesterday’s edition was titled “The Whistle-Blowers at Boeing”. Listening to it now.
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I listen to that daily... its teed up.


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LongRoadBob said:
The few time I’ve had surgery, throat surgery once and an emergency appendicitis, when I was being wheeled up to the operating theatre, surgeon or someone in a surgical mask, both time poke their head out the door watching me be rolled up to it, asked if I was me. I said I was, but also as they turned stopped them and asked “and what do YOU all have planned for me? What is the operation you are performing?”

If I were having a knee operated on, would definitely get a red magic marker and write on the other knee “NOT THIS ONE, the other knee!”

Ditto anything I have a pair of. It happens too often, and is really hard to understand how it could, that the surgeons have cut open the wrong knee/leg/foot, and even amputated the wrong one.

Heard of two cases this year. One some one from the hospital said something about “well, it was Friday afternoon, the team wanted to go home, etc.” totally serious here.
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Maybe not the best analogy but it’s not that different that shutting down the good engine or pulling on the stick to arrest the descent from a stall. We be human...


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Bill Watson said:
Maybe not the best analogy but it’s not that different that shutting down the good engine or pulling on the stick to arrest the descent from a stall. We be human...


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Well, except I can’t think other than that hospital procedures sure as hell ought to be able to eliminate this kind of thing. Just so little as the nurse prepping the patient, and doing I mention I would...write in big red letters “not this knee”, and in black on the leg “this one” And if a patient shows up in the operating theater with no magic marker scrawls, they stop until he has them. They must check with the patient as well, as the patient would know.

That and maybe two personnel must agree which one. There really is no excuse for that.
 
wanttaja said:
New facility, but same old company. Policies set by corporate headquarters in Chicago, management training is standardized (my boss was sent to St. Louis for her management training), aircraft built to the same PROs (Boeing standards). The badges are common. Even the paint scheme on the buildings is the same.

The only thing different between the Seattle-area manufacturing and that in South Carolina is that one is a union shop, and the other isn't. Yet both sites are apparently suffering the same sort of quality issues. The common denominator IS management, both in the form of leadership and in the ability to develop and support effective quality control processes.

One of the complaints about unions is that it's harder fire sub-standard employees. This SHOULD mean that heads will be freely rolling in South Carolina, without a union to protect them. Probably not going to happen.

Ron Wanttaja
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That’s exactly how I was thinking about it. Just like the thought that accidents rarely have a single cause or result from single failure, product failures and procedural lapses often result from systemic issues. I’m not familiar with Boeing at all but it’s starting to sound like some corporate stress and strain vis-a-vis current management is beginning to surface in serious ways.

...and all problems are management problems by definition. To the extent that problems are not fixed, they are management’s fault. To the extent the company thrives, management is rewarded although sometimes excessively.
 
When I’ve gone in for kidney stone procedures, it sure seems like multiple failsafes were in place.

“Can you describe what you’re here to have done?”

“Which side are we doing?”

Asked at least twice, with them marking the correct kidney with a marker immediately after I told them.

Same general procedures in place when I had my recent arm surgery. I thought such safeguards were universal.

I also thought inventories of tools and sponges and clamps were done religiously. No system is perfect, but gross failures should be few and far between.
 
wanttaja said:
I'm betting it was a cable tray, not a ladder.

ladder-type-cable-trays-250x250-250x250.jpg

Ron Wanttaja
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No, I’m betting it was a ladder. Why would someone bring a cable tray into the tail of a 787? Where would they even get one?
 
Silvaire said:
No, I’m betting it was a ladder. Why would someone bring a cable tray into the tail of a 787? Where would they even get one?
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Seems like I've seen trays in the non-cabin areas....

Ron Wanttaja
 
LongRoadBob said:
Not sure what you mean here, but management is not just about a building...
It’s managing the human and other resources. A brand spanking shiny new building isn’t what promotes quality control. Workers that care about the work, teams working as such, common goal, high standards. Have not a lot to do with the building.
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People are not "managed." Equipment is managed; processes are managed; building an airplane can be managed.

But people must be led.
 
Bill Watson said:
A sample of one. Excellent.


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I'm a fast learner. :p

LongRoadBob said:
If I were having a knee operated on, would definitely get a red magic marker and write on the other knee “NOT THIS ONE, the other knee!”
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My wife has had surgeons do pretty much the same thing, on their own. Mark the area to be operated on. It does minimize mistakes.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Not sure what you mean here, but management is not just about a building...
It’s managing the human and other resources. A brand spanking shiny new building isn’t what promotes quality control. Workers that care about the work, teams working as such, common goal, high standards. Have not a lot to do with the building.

Or did I misunderstand your point?
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I'll try to explain.

My posts were specifically addressing organizing activities at the Boeing plant prior to an election in February 2017, and the sins of labor and management which have occurred in the past at locations far from South Carolina were likely of little concern to most of the workers, of whom it's very likely few had worked in a union facility prior to being hired by the company.

From an article written in February 2017:

When the approximately 3,000 workers at Boeing’s 787 Dreamliner plant in North Charleston vote Wednesday on whether to join the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, they will be doing so in the state most opposed to unions.

South Carolina has overtaken North Carolina as the state with the lowest rate of union workers in the nation at 1.6 percent. That’s down from 2.1 percent in 2015, according to a January report from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

A relatively new (8 years old) factory in a new state with, according to contemporary news reports, employees happy to have high paying jobs, eager to learn, and not interested in union representation (recall the rejection of organizing by 74% of employees) was completely different from the situation in Washington state, with its established and sometimes acrimonious relationship between management and workers.

When labor relations sour, charges and counter charges fly, management accuses labor of slowdowns, deliberate absenteeism, and sabotage, unions accuse management of negotiating in bad faith and punishing reps and stewards illegally, the press and local politicians take sides, and family members shun other family members, then the poisonous atmosphere precludes the possibility of a fair and balanced agreement between the parties.

What I'm trying to say is that my comments were related to the organizing attempts in the period between 2008 and the 2017 election. Since the factory was non-union, there wasn't an adversarial relationship between a non-IAM loyal workforce and Boeing, although the IAM certainly had a presence in the plant and was making a concerted effort to win a workforce vote.

I wasn't addressing the NYT article and the claims made by certain employees.

Sorry if this is all confusing.
 
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FastEddieB said:
When I’ve gone in for kidney stone procedures, it sure seems like multiple failsafes were in place.

“Can you describe what you’re here to have done?”

“Which side are we doing?”

Asked at least twice, with them marking the correct kidney with a marker immediately after I told them.

Same general procedures in place when I had my recent arm surgery. I thought such safeguards were universal.

I also thought inventories of tools and sponges and clamps were done religiously. No system is perfect, but gross failures should be few and far between.
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Yes.
 
OkieAviator said:
That is dumb to say, probably why no one says that.
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How so? You think the first statement is ok, but THAT is dumb? Both are dumb.
Equally dumb. And when someone uses statements like that, it’s an agenda and they are too lazy to refute, or research, so the use the stupid meme.

There is true, false, and subjective statements on the internet. Just like anywhere there is interaction.
 
wanttaja said:
Seems like I've seen trays in the non-cabin areas....

Ron Wanttaja
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No Ron there aren't any cable trays on aircraft whereas it is common to bring a ladder into the rear stabilizer compartment to get access to components. Believe me this wouldn't be the first time one was found left in there.
 
LoL well actually all those wire bundles are very secure with well thought out clamps and standoffs that separate each critical group from one another. When wiring is added it is very specific as to which run it takes and which bundle it joins. Jumping from one run to another is not allowed so if you get into the wrong bundle at the beginning you'll be in trouble at the end and have to start all over. Cable trays are for buildings where you just toss the stuff up there and don't worry about it because buildings don't move. Nor do they have flight controls :)
 
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