Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Private for profit airports have declined in number significantly over the last 20 years and there are a lot struggling.
City of Portage trying to close AIrport C47
- Thread starter Pinecone
- Start date
You might be surprised. I know of at least one doing essentially that.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Then you should contact your local news and rat out the city.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yes, it is a big deal. However we are dealing with small town politics and a lot of business goes on under the table that never goes public.
midwestpa24
Final Approach
All it would take is one call to the FAA Compliance office, if actually true. It would be a little hard to conceal though, as one of the stipulations to accepting federal money is an annual audit requirement.
I've seen such allegations before, and it usually turns out to be a misunderstanding of the accounting process. For example, the city bonded for a project and is being reimbursed. Remember, the FAA does not contribute to airport operational budgets, only approved capital projects that receive a large amount of oversight. They don't write a blank check.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
The local news here is part of the problem, so nothing will happen there.
I am open to suggestions on how to address the problem, however, remember I live here and would like to live here longer so I would have to be careful, small town politics and all.
I sent an email to one person talking about how we use that airport regularly and support local businesses (which is true), is there a list of all 9 people (or whoever is voting) and their email addresses?
Good luck, I’m terrible with politics. Have enough of that going on at my airport. Our hangar leases are coming up on expiry and some people are saying it’s bad timing to discuss a renewal. I’d rather get it confirmed in writing and be done with it instead of waiting till the 11th hour with a risk of being pushed out.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Copied from Beechtalk:
To make it handy, here are the emails collected in a way you can copy/paste, first one is the mayor, the rest are councilmen:
Mitchel.Craig@portagewi.gov
Allan.Radant@portagewi.gov,
Eric.Shimpach@portagewi.gov,
Susan.BauerFrye@portagewi.gov,
Karyn.Wetzel@portagewi.gov,
Dennis.Nachreiner@portagewi.gov,
Marty.Havlovic@portagewi.gov,
Steven.Rohrbeck@portagewi.gov,
Christopher.Crawley@portagewi.gov,
Tim.Green@portagewi.gov,
Mitchel.Craig@portagewi.gov
It’s small town politics. The news doesn’t want to hear about it or report it any more than the city.
Ozone
Pre-takeoff checklist
They voted to revisit the issue in January. I'm sure the people who were in favor of keeping it open will remember to come to the meeting in January. After all, January in WI is such a hospitable time of year.
In all seriousness, anyone showing up to that meeting ought to bring pictures of Lahaina and point out that it was only GA flights that helped the people of Lahaina. Alternatively, look at what GA did for nebraska during the severe spring flooding 2 (?) years ago.
Another option: if there have been any lifeline pilot flights or angel flights out of C47, perhaps someone should call both organizations, so that patients and families involved can tell their stories to the council.
No one notices the importance of an airport until it's needed.
In all seriousness, anyone showing up to that meeting ought to bring pictures of Lahaina and point out that it was only GA flights that helped the people of Lahaina. Alternatively, look at what GA did for nebraska during the severe spring flooding 2 (?) years ago.
Another option: if there have been any lifeline pilot flights or angel flights out of C47, perhaps someone should call both organizations, so that patients and families involved can tell their stories to the council.
No one notices the importance of an airport until it's needed.
The Lahaina airlift really needs to be in the news. Bravo to everyone there.
It might be in the news and Im just not paying attention.
Also, reading on one of the two council members that wanted to close the airport. He wanted another member to resign after the other member applied for a state grant for road improvement. So another instance of small town politics
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Or the story is bunk.
It’s not, I know the guy who was in the position and the city politics first hand. I’ve dealt with them.
It happens, this is small town politics. Many are quite corrupt and/or the people in the positions are inept.
Bingo. I’m not sure how the money could be used for anything outside of what’s written in the grant contract.
fasteddie
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2017
- Messages
- 184
- Display Name
Display name:
Fasteddie
Taking a quick look at the satellite view, it does look like the Portage airport is one of those places that was once "out in the country," and the city expanded around it. Seems to be a mix of residential and light industry. Not sure I grasped all the nuances of a potential "new" airport. Have they actually identified a location and a plan to get it constructed? Or is a mythical "new" airport just a pipe dream to appease the locals while they get rid of the existing field?
Regarding "airport manager making $55k for one meeting," and "FAA funds for the airport going into the town coffers," I don't believe those as absolutes, but I do believe it happens on principal.
I bet if you pinned down that "airport manager," I'd imagine he or she could tell you a whole litany of things they do for the local airport, much more than just "one meeting." With that said, I bet if they were forced to actually keep some sort of timecard, it would show they're still wildly overpaid on an hour by hour basis.
And I've no doubt that small town politicians and staffs can be crafty enough to stay within the letter of the law, while still getting funds where they want to go, regardless of the source.
Regarding "airport manager making $55k for one meeting," and "FAA funds for the airport going into the town coffers," I don't believe those as absolutes, but I do believe it happens on principal.
I bet if you pinned down that "airport manager," I'd imagine he or she could tell you a whole litany of things they do for the local airport, much more than just "one meeting." With that said, I bet if they were forced to actually keep some sort of timecard, it would show they're still wildly overpaid on an hour by hour basis.
And I've no doubt that small town politicians and staffs can be crafty enough to stay within the letter of the law, while still getting funds where they want to go, regardless of the source.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I searched info on the new airport, and one article title (I couldn’t access the article) sounded like it was decided against building it.
midwestpa24
Final Approach
Yeah most don't realize how FAA Grants work. I'll give you a brief rundown.
The project has to be programmed by the FAA to receive funding. The project has to be both eligible for FAA funding and justified. There are specific rules for both.
If the FAA consents to the project, the sponsor then has to fund the design and bidding process for the project. The project then must be bid and use the bid amount for the Grant Application. After the application it can take up to 90 days for the FAA to issue the Grant. Then the sponsor can seek reimbursement for the design costs. The sponsor can only be reimbursed for expenses that have already been incurred and paid for. At no time does the FAA just issue a check to a sponsor.
FlyingElvii
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2016
- Messages
- 804
- Display Name
Display name:
flyingElvii
This is troubling…
This is the closest airport to Endeavor Bridge. Stopped there in 2022 for gas, and to wait until the madness subsided a bit. I am sure others use it as an alternate as well. Walked over to some diner off the main drag for lunch.
if you look east of the airport, there are a bunch of New-ish apartments. I expect that is what they intend for the airport as well. Gotta build subsidized apartments for all of the “New Arrivals”, doncha know.
This is the closest airport to Endeavor Bridge. Stopped there in 2022 for gas, and to wait until the madness subsided a bit. I am sure others use it as an alternate as well. Walked over to some diner off the main drag for lunch.
if you look east of the airport, there are a bunch of New-ish apartments. I expect that is what they intend for the airport as well. Gotta build subsidized apartments for all of the “New Arrivals”, doncha know.
Ditto. Same process for State funding. It’s certainly a methodical process and definitely not just a no-strings-attached check that’s sent to the municipality. Another thing that’s not understood is that even though the project might be in the ACIP, the State or FAA may not have the funding to execute that fiscal year. I wish the process was faster and simpler, but it’s usual bureaucracy that moves at the pace of government.
Pinecone
En-Route
But unlike a bike trail, an airport does generate some income.
And may bring in more income indirectly.
But again, I look at my home field. About 4 years ago they started an upgrade program. The basically put in a new runway (2850 to start, recently upograded to 3350, going to 4200). Build 3 rows of T-hangars and just placed the order for a 4th. There are 5 large hangars (one added this year) with room for 7 more.
Yes, some of this is paid for with Federal grants, but that is money into the local economy for the work done, plus a revenue stream from hangar and tie downs, fuel sales, maintenace (or a sop paying rent).
And may bring in more income indirectly.
But again, I look at my home field. About 4 years ago they started an upgrade program. The basically put in a new runway (2850 to start, recently upograded to 3350, going to 4200). Build 3 rows of T-hangars and just placed the order for a 4th. There are 5 large hangars (one added this year) with room for 7 more.
Yes, some of this is paid for with Federal grants, but that is money into the local economy for the work done, plus a revenue stream from hangar and tie downs, fuel sales, maintenace (or a sop paying rent).
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2014
- Messages
- 9,770
- Location
- Broken Arrow, OK
- Display Name
Display name:
SoonerAviator
Depends on the bike trail. The trails around Bentonville, AR bring in tourism revenue worth hundreds of thousands each year for hotels/restaurants/bike shops. The DFW-area has quite a vibrant biking tourism contingent as well. If we're just talking about some paved city walking/biking trails then sure, it doesn't likely contribute much for revenue.
Pinecone
En-Route
Also the FL hurricanes. GA flew in a LOT of supplies.
Mtns2Skies
Final Approach
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2008
- Messages
- 5,631
- Display Name
Display name:
Mtns2Skies
Last edited:
FlyBoyMcCall
Filing Flight Plan
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2013
- Messages
- 11
- Display Name
Display name:
RobTuck
It is great that you guys have been able to maintain S43 for all these decades. Congratulations are in order, especially considering that the thresholds of many privates are now X-ed out. The glib answer I suppose goes to comparative efficiency but studies in analogous situations always fail to support that widespread idea. I have not been an airport manager but a good friend was a manager at KMYL. Via that friendship, I was able to see the many hidden costs associated to maintaining a public airport, some of those costs being substantial. True, most public airports are subsidized by the FAA. These subsidies are designed to help offset the additional costs of maintaining national strategic security readiness as well as meeting public requirements. I'm guessing that S43 has no defined role with Homeland Security. Among other things, runway construction and weight capacity is likely far in excess of what you guys have constructed at S43. I was blown away by the complexity of the runway substrate and drainage requirements for the KMYL runway rebuild a few years ago. A few years back, the taxiway had to be moved to conform to revised standards based on 30 years of accident analysis. Finally, there is the question of comparative all-in costs of hangaring or tie-down parking at S43, and how those monies flow. In the end, I think we're attempting to make an apples to oranges comparison. Not fruitful (no pun intended
)
midwestpa24
Final Approach
It is great that you guys have been able to maintain S43 for all these decades. Congratulations are in order, especially considering that the thresholds of many privates are now X-ed out. The glib answer I suppose goes to comparative efficiency but studies in analogous situations always fail to support that widespread idea. I have not been an airport manager but a good friend was a manager at KMYL. Via that friendship, I was able to see the many hidden costs associated to maintaining a public airport, some of those costs being substantial. True, most public airports are subsidized by the FAA. These subsidies are designed to help offset the additional costs of maintaining national strategic security readiness as well as meeting public requirements. I'm guessing that S43 has no defined role with Homeland Security. Among other things, runway construction and weight capacity is likely far in excess of what you guys have constructed at S43. I was blown away by the complexity of the runway substrate and drainage requirements for the KMYL runway rebuild a few years ago. A few years back, the taxiway had to be moved to conform to revised standards based on 30 years of accident analysis. Finally, there is the question of comparative all-in costs of hangaring or tie-down parking at S43, and how those monies flow. In the end, I think we're attempting to make an apples to oranges comparison. Not fruitful (no pun intended
I agree with all of your post, but I wanted to touch on the sentence in bold. The FAA provides infrastructure grants to airports in the NPIAS system. You could characterize those as subsidies. These grants are used for very specific infrastructure projects on the airport and approved by the FAA. I know I've had several of our tenants that hear about our airport receiving such and such grant and think we just get one of those big checks with a lot of zeros on it to spend as we see fit. That is not how the system works.
The FAA does not provide any operational funding to airports (except for the recent COVID relief programs). The funding for airport staff, utilities, mowing, plowing snow, etc., must all come from airport revenue or local taxpayers.
As to why government airports are more expensive to operate, I would guess there is a fair amount more infrastructure and upkeep that is expected. For many private airports, they are either airparks with an HOA type fee to help fund the airfield maintenance, or the owner is also the FBO or equivalent and that business's operations help support the infrastructure needed.
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2019
- Messages
- 2,125
- Display Name
Display name:
Domenick
Quite true.
At my home drome (S43), which is not an airpark, the family runs the maintenance shop, the flight school, the jump operation, and rents about 200 hangars (mixed closed and open Ts). They either lease space to the longstanding Buzz Inn Steakhouse or they own it. They may also lease space to an auto/plane upholstery shop and a welding operation.
Not sure if they get an FAA grant money. They do keep up the runway and taxiways. In the last few years they regraded, repaved, restriped the runway, and this year they crack-sealed all the paved surfaces.
midwestpa24
Final Approach
S43 is listed in the NPIAS, so they are eligible for Federal Funding. Looks like they last received grants in 2021 for a Runway reconstruction and an environmental evaluation.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Lahaina does not own or operate an airport.
Kapalua (the airport at Lahaina) is private use restricted to 121 and 135 operations and owned by the state of Hawaii. The remaining two airports Maui are also owned and operated by the State of Hawaii.
And the people involved called Kapalua and received permission for the airlift within 24 hours. Again, bravo to all involved
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Lahaina is not supporting that airport the State of Hawaii is. An apples to apples to proposal would be for Portage to get the state to take over the airport and relieve the city from any financial responsibility and to maintain disaster relief. Good luck with that at the state legislature.
According to Flying Magazine,
“Portage Municipal Airport was privately constructed by the Mael family in the early 1940s. The airport has two runways: 18/36, measuring 3,770 by 60 feet, and 4/22 ( 2,688 by 40). At the time, the property was a flat spot outside of town.
“In 1961 the Mael family donated the airport to the city,” said Bablick, adding that it costs the city approximately $100,000 a year to operate the facility, representing about 1.25 percent of its annual budget.”
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2019
- Messages
- 2,125
- Display Name
Display name:
Domenick
Thanks for the tip. Found the NPIAS site.