Cirrus Vision Jet-Certified...Finally
- Thread starter FloridaPilot
- Start date
FloridaPilot
Pattern Altitude
Looks are certainly subjective. I thought you had eased into criticizing design choices, which I assume took some precedence over looks.
As an aside, I don't care that much either, beyond hoping for the success of the model - I'm still active on COPA and have been following this for almost a decade.
At the unveiling at the 2007 Migration:
Ed,
And that is what I don't get about the overall hate for Cirrus Air frames. This is a General Aviation aircraft and we should all want it to do well at least because it will benefit GA as a whole.
I went to a Cirrus event in Queens, NY a few weeks ago and they had the Vision Jet mock up there. Pretty neat cockpit but I wouldn't want to be a passenger. Not a lot of room for adults.
It's a joke.
arnoha
Cleared for Takeoff
I love that this exists. It's very cool. More power to those that want it and can afford it. But...
Why would someone choose this over a TBM? Faster, farther, higher, cheaper. What does this one offer that the TBM does not, other than the lack of a prop?
Why would someone choose this over a TBM? Faster, farther, higher, cheaper. What does this one offer that the TBM does not, other than the lack of a prop?
It's a jet. (Cue the Internet cartoon thingy where two characters are talking with one laying out all the reasons a TBM is better and the other responding with...it's a jet)
$2 million cheaper.
TheGolfPilot
Line Up and Wait
I'm pretty sure the cirrus jet has a parachute
TBM doesn't have a parachute
There are plenty of airplanes that can do many things better than the sr22 for give or take the same price but the parachute sells the plane
Dav8or
Final Approach
And that is a pretty powerful argument in a single engine plane. Would anyone really want to try to dead stick this thing into... (????) with your family onboard? I sure as hell wouldn't. I'll take glide it to a good altitude and location and then pull the chute for the win!!
I think the fact that it is a jet will sell a lot of them.
Rockymountain
Pre-takeoff checklist
I think the benefit of the SF50 over the TBM... There are a few, some already mentioned.
1. The Cirrus life. The Cirrus community like many type clubs is a vibrant community, and a lot of those guys gals want to move up but don't want to leave the Cirrus community. Some of us previous SR2X drivers went to different airframes for more capability, but still identify with that community.
2. The parachute. While I don't fully get this in a turbine class aircraft, many in the COPA community have convinced themselves that any plane without a chute is just not safe. I have seen that transformation many times, it is what it is. I feel perfectly comfortable without a chute in a whole variety of planes, but that chute sells to many pilots and spouses. I don't thing I will see a chute pull in an SF50 in my flying career, but maybe I am wrong. Type rated pilots flying turbines, just aren't going to get into the situations that we see with the piston SR2X, IMHO.
3. Bigger, roomier, cabin, seems to appeal to some. I know my wife would not like the bigger windows, and she does not like all forward facing seats, that is like a mini-van. That was the primary reason she vetoed the Eclipse. Club seating is more conducive to family interaction, and makes better use of limited space. People coming from a SR2X are used to being in that arrangement, so they won't notice the mini-bus feel.
4. 2 mil cheaper, that is a biggie, and you can't compare new to used for a variety of reasons.
5. Significantly quieter. With noise cancelling headsets, a minor concern for many, but a headset free cabin has some appeal.
6. Simpler pilot interface. FADEC, single lever, much fewer buttons levers and simpler emergency procedures. The TBM is a much more complex plane.
7. Ramp appeal. Pretty cool plane, will definitely draw a crowd.
8. You can say that you own a jet. For others that may be a liability.
9. Baggage capacity. A lot of external storage on the jet. Good for big families.
There are also plenty of reasons one may choose a TBM.
1. The Cirrus life. The Cirrus community like many type clubs is a vibrant community, and a lot of those guys gals want to move up but don't want to leave the Cirrus community. Some of us previous SR2X drivers went to different airframes for more capability, but still identify with that community.
2. The parachute. While I don't fully get this in a turbine class aircraft, many in the COPA community have convinced themselves that any plane without a chute is just not safe. I have seen that transformation many times, it is what it is. I feel perfectly comfortable without a chute in a whole variety of planes, but that chute sells to many pilots and spouses. I don't thing I will see a chute pull in an SF50 in my flying career, but maybe I am wrong. Type rated pilots flying turbines, just aren't going to get into the situations that we see with the piston SR2X, IMHO.
3. Bigger, roomier, cabin, seems to appeal to some. I know my wife would not like the bigger windows, and she does not like all forward facing seats, that is like a mini-van. That was the primary reason she vetoed the Eclipse. Club seating is more conducive to family interaction, and makes better use of limited space. People coming from a SR2X are used to being in that arrangement, so they won't notice the mini-bus feel.
4. 2 mil cheaper, that is a biggie, and you can't compare new to used for a variety of reasons.
5. Significantly quieter. With noise cancelling headsets, a minor concern for many, but a headset free cabin has some appeal.
6. Simpler pilot interface. FADEC, single lever, much fewer buttons levers and simpler emergency procedures. The TBM is a much more complex plane.
7. Ramp appeal. Pretty cool plane, will definitely draw a crowd.
8. You can say that you own a jet. For others that may be a liability.
9. Baggage capacity. A lot of external storage on the jet. Good for big families.
There are also plenty of reasons one may choose a TBM.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2015
- Messages
- 9,306
- Display Name
Display name:
Aztec Flyer
The chute is now an integral part of the brand..."if it doesn't have a chute it can't be a Cirrus" is how it will be viewed if they ever try to drop that feature.
I think chute pulls on the VJet are inevitable; it's the "get out of jail free card" that allows expanding the access to this type of aircraft to a wider range of less experienced pilots than before. I fully expect one of them to run one out of fuel (or something equally preventable) and hopefully the Cirrus training and the chute do their thing to save the day.
It's very much a move up plane; attractive to the SR22 owner that is tired of wearing an O2 mask at 20,000ft+, doesn't want the noise of a prop, and has the means. Every time I go westbound over the rocks to the coast I would prefer an airplane like that over the Aztec.
I think chute pulls on the VJet are inevitable; it's the "get out of jail free card" that allows expanding the access to this type of aircraft to a wider range of less experienced pilots than before. I fully expect one of them to run one out of fuel (or something equally preventable) and hopefully the Cirrus training and the chute do their thing to save the day.
It's very much a move up plane; attractive to the SR22 owner that is tired of wearing an O2 mask at 20,000ft+, doesn't want the noise of a prop, and has the means. Every time I go westbound over the rocks to the coast I would prefer an airplane like that over the Aztec.
RussR
En-Route
While I didn't sit in the far back, I did sit in the middle row (where I assume most adults would want to sit) and thought there was a ton of room, especially leg room, but shoulder room and headroom too. I'm 6'2".
Yea the middle row was fine. The row all the way in the back awful. I'm not a big person at all (5'7") and it was very uncomfortable
RudyP
Cleared for Takeoff
That row is meant to be for kids and is removable and optional in the first place. If I get an SF50, I probably won't even put the 6th and 7th seats in. 5 is plenty for me, and it is the roomiest, most comfortable 5 seater I have ever been in.
Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
Last I heard the number was 25 hours.
I showed the Cirrus jet to my wife at Oskosh. I thought she'd be excited. She told me "I'm not setting foot in that fugly thing". And that was that.
It will be interesting to see how well it does. It kinda screams "I can't afford a real jet but want to pretend I've arrived even though the performance/load is worse than a comparably priced and better looking single turboprop".
It will be interesting to see how well it does. It kinda screams "I can't afford a real jet but want to pretend I've arrived even though the performance/load is worse than a comparably priced and better looking single turboprop".
Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
Interestingly enough the two largest advertisers in the Cirrus Club magazine are TBM and Piper meridian. These are the two most common "step-up" airplanes for Cirri drivers.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2015
- Messages
- 9,306
- Display Name
Display name:
Aztec Flyer
Seriously? What comparably priced single turboprop are you referring to? A new TBM is considerably more expensive and a new Piper Meridian is like being stuffed in a tuna can by comparison, and cruises ~40 kts slower.
This is supposed to be a "personal" jet, in the same way a Porsche 911 turbo is a personal sports car. Yes there are better looking planes/cars that carry more load...but that's not the point is it.
As much as we like to poke fun at Cirrus drivers here, hard to ignore the fact Cirrus produces airplanes the market finds desirable. I think they may have done it again with this jet.
If one needs more payload, more range, more speed (or a jet that passes the wife's appearance standards) better to spring for the extra $ for a Citation Mustang.
Last edited:
dans2992
En-Route
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2013
- Messages
- 4,016
- Display Name
Display name:
Dans2992
Wow, that's not nearly as many as I would have thought!
I assume the right-seater needs to be a CFI, or specially approved by Cirrus, not just anyone typed in the SF50, right?
You don't have to buy new. You can shop for late model TBM's easily at that price.
Agreed.
RussR
En-Route
At Oshkosh this past summer, I was able to interview Ben Kowalski, Cirrus VP of Marketing, about the Vision Jet (and a few other topics) for the Stuck Mic AvCast podcast:
http://stuckmicavcast.com/podcast/smac126-live-from-airventure-2016/ (also available on your usual podcast apps - look for episode 126)
The excitement around the Vision Jet was noticeable. I was able to talk with a few position holders (not recorded) and it was pretty clear that the whole "Cirrus Life" marketing is working well for the company. There are people who learned to fly in Cirrus aircraft and have steadily purchased new ones, never owning anything else. For them, the Jet is the obvious next step, and there was much talk about using it for business travel, primarily by owner-pilots.
It's the 2016 version of what all the manufacturers were trying to do very heavily in the 1960's and 70's - keep you in the brand by providing a steady upgrade patch from training aircraft to retracts to twins and on.
Got to admit, Cirrus has definitely created that brand loyalty.
http://stuckmicavcast.com/podcast/smac126-live-from-airventure-2016/ (also available on your usual podcast apps - look for episode 126)
The excitement around the Vision Jet was noticeable. I was able to talk with a few position holders (not recorded) and it was pretty clear that the whole "Cirrus Life" marketing is working well for the company. There are people who learned to fly in Cirrus aircraft and have steadily purchased new ones, never owning anything else. For them, the Jet is the obvious next step, and there was much talk about using it for business travel, primarily by owner-pilots.
It's the 2016 version of what all the manufacturers were trying to do very heavily in the 1960's and 70's - keep you in the brand by providing a steady upgrade patch from training aircraft to retracts to twins and on.
Got to admit, Cirrus has definitely created that brand loyalty.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2015
- Messages
- 9,306
- Display Name
Display name:
Aztec Flyer
New to used is a specious comparison imo.
That sort of comparison would apply equally as you can also shop for any number of late model Citations and other jets for the price of a new TBM.
arnoha
Cleared for Takeoff
New to used is a specious comparison imo.
That sort of comparison would apply equally as you can also shop for any number of late model Citations and other jets for the price of a new TBM.
It is indeed not a fair comparison. The purchase price of a TBM is higher, no doubt, but I'd imagine the higher fuel burn and higher MX on a jet more than makes up for it in overall dollar cost. For folks who can afford these sorts of toys, up-front purchase cost isn't going to be a deal-breaker.
And I'll grant that comparing a TBM 930, which is a highly refined, evolutionary version of a tested design isn't quite the same as comparing to a first generation model SF50. I imagine, if it's successful, it will evolve as well. But, still, those two are what are on sale today.
I suppose the aircraft that really needs to sweat its market now is the Meridian. What would put someone in a Meridian, which costs about the same as the SF50? I would suppose it would be cheaper operating costs, but the Meridian is known to be a bit of an MX hog.
FloridaPilot
Pattern Altitude
I agree. Comparing a TBM to an SF50 shouldn't happen because they are not in the same class. If someone gave you either plane for free it would come down to mission and what you would use it for. Ramp presence, trying to look cool, drawing a crowd...etc doesn't apply to me because I'm at that age where I don't care what people think about me or my airplane. Some people would think I'm cool...some not, others will look for a way to hate if I have to look for validation from something I purchased. I have a bigger problem. I do it because "I" love it.
RudyP
Cleared for Takeoff
Not really. The $2M difference will buy about 5000-8000 hours worth of fuel for the SF50 which is way more than most owners will ever own the plane for! And also massively destroys the argument that turboprops are more efficient in the 20s so the SF50 will be so much more expensive to run. I'm a prospective SF50 buyer and I care WAY more about the upfront capital cost than the fuel burn because I can do math and I'm not afraid of a type rating. If you talk to many of the TBMOPA and MMOPA folks, avoiding the type rating is generally the #1 reason they paid more for the TP they are flying.
I think the SF50 is a very interesting product with some obvious compromises but a new TBM930 is just insanely priced.
That row is where the cirrus owner stores his $5000 mountain bikes.
N747JB
Final Approach
I went through a similar thought process in 1999, we were looking/dreaming about a CJ2, ended up buying a 1989 Citation II S/P for less than half the money. More room, more fuel burn, and a little slower, but did the same basic thing for almost $3 million less.
It all depends on your budget and your mission, we can fly a 182 across the country twice a week if we want, it's just not the best plane for the mission. If the SF50 fit my needs, I would certainly look at it, I have a friend that has been on the waiting list for several years, he's on his 2nd SR22 and loves it!
RalphInCA
Cleared for Takeoff
I wonder who's getting the first one?
Rockymountain
Pre-takeoff checklist
I haven't heard about the Meridian being a maintenance hog. I think that most people that own this plane think of it as between annuals as pretty much just replacing tires and adding turbine oil. I have 750 hours in Meridians, and have not had a canceled flight for anything, including maintenance yet. Plane flies a lot. My total maintenance over the last 3 years has been under 10K per year including annual inspection at a high priced service center, deferring no recommended maintenance. Not bad for a plane that is a go pretty much anywhere pretty much anytime plane.
FastEddieB
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2013
- Messages
- 11,543
- Location
- Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
- Display Name
Display name:
Fast Eddie B
JoseCuervo
En-Route
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2012
- Messages
- 2,868
- Display Name
Display name:
JoseCuervo
Gorgeous....
Do want.
Do want.
zaitcev
En-Route
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2010
- Messages
- 3,259
- Display Name
Display name:
Pete Zaitcev
Either is outside of my budget, so I never researched the market, so out of pure curiosity, did you look anything else in that rough order of expense? I heard KingAir C90 can be gotten cheap (cheaper than SF50 actually), is this a sane idea?
Target market is the owner-pilot. Their spouse / significant other / kids are not pilots. Why do they need a PFD?
Even in air taxi mode I would expect this to be used single pilot.
RudyP
Cleared for Takeoff
If you are asking me personally, the answer is no. 60% of my flying is solo, another 30% is with just my fiancee and rarely do I have 3-4 people in the plane so a King Air cabin would be massive overkill for my use.
dell30rb
Final Approach
Also has a Chute
Rockymountain
Pre-takeoff checklist
Might be interesting to see how this plays out. The M600 and now the SF50 both might be attractive to those looking at a Meridian. One question to ask though, is if you want an SF50 now, how long will it take to get one? You can have a new or used Meridian now, maybe years to get a new SF50, maybe longer for a used one. One thing that is perishable among us pilots are our medicals.
I was going to put a deposit down on an SF50 in 2009. Liked it then, and like it now. But I started flying modern flight level machines in 2010, all PA46/P46T's, but the last 6 years of flight level freedom has been amazing. Far exceeded my expectations. I plan my trips and then plan the weather, whereas I used to have to plan the weather and then plan trips that I could make. I don't know how many more years of flying I have left in me, but for anyone wondering if flying above 95% of the weather at over 300 mph, in pressurized comfort in a modern glass cockpit aircraft is awesome? I can assure you it is way more awesome than you think. Want to wait another 2, 3, 6, 10 years while the end of your flying days draws nearer? The Meridian is still the cheapest currently factory produced turbine to own and operate. That won't change with the SF50 which will still be at least 40-50% more to operate. So the Meridian will still have a niche for people that want a modern plane with turbine reliability and capability on a high performance piston budget.