Cirrus fatal crash - Orcutt school Santa Maria, CA

Quite disturbing and extremely sad. Found this that shows a bit more detail:

 
That sucks. Things can go south soooo fast, especially low to the ground. Thoughts for the families.


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mr_happyland said:
Looking at flightaware, it seems it was a base to final turn after a previous go around:
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It may have been a go around but a look at the video I posted in message #5 shows a ground speed of 51 knots @ 100 feet over the runway (video time 1:28). Assuming (yea I know) that the information is correct it may have been a touch & go.
 
Looks like an older SR-20, the registration doesn't list a year. Sad, RIP. You can hear the rocket fire, but it was just too close to the ground. You really need to watch your speeds in a Cirrus, the flaps are pretty effective. I fly 100 knots downwind abeam the numbers, add first notch flaps, then 90 on base, go to full flaps, 80 to 85 on final, 80 short final in a 22. A 20 is a few knots slower over the numbers, but pretty much the same for the rest of the pattern. Important to keep the nose down and maintain airspeed.
 
What a shame. Wonder if the pilot had done a proper transition course.. they really drill into you the importance of airspeed and parachute discipline

Basically you should never be under 90 unless you're on final
 
I wonder how effective the envelope protection system on the newer Cirrus would be at helping to prevent something like this
 
So the last frame of the flight aware data in the video, the ground speed is 89, which should be good, unless he was no flaps, and his descent rate was 10,000+ fpm, which is about 90 knots.
 
Tantalum said:
I wonder how effective the envelope protection system on the newer Cirrus would be at helping to prevent something like this
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Very, but it could have been some type of failure too. I wonder if there is any audio?
 
The energy the airplane had just before impact looks astonishing! By the sound of the video, you can hear the rocket in activation, but they were just too low for it to be effective. Looks like it occurred during the base to final leg. Stall / spin ?
 
PaulS said:
So the last frame of the flight aware data in the video, the ground speed is 89, which should be good, unless he was no flaps, and his descent rate was 10,000+ fpm, which is about 90 knots.
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10,000+ fpm..?
 
Sad. Pilot had student pilot certificate issued 11/7/2019. Solo cross country flight?
 
Could a sudden wind shift have caused the drop in airspeed and subsequent stall? As a 25 hr student I often think about this turning base to final. I tend to watch my speed like a hawk.
 
We’ve been having Santa Ana like winds here for the past week, Weather Underground says that the wind was 8 gusting to 17 down the runway (RWY30), so that could very likely been a factor. The accident was at 17:43:00Z and the METAR says
METAR KSMX 201751Z 29007G15KT
METAR KSMX 201851Z 31015G20KT
 
Santa Maria can have some pretty stiff winds and some good gust factors (25G38 comes to mind), but it's almost always straight down the runway. In an aircraft like a Cirrus, I would think 7G15 or 15G20 might be stressful for an inexperienced pilot, but should still be pretty doable in the absence of a crosswind component. The wind might have been the cause of the go around (assuming it wasn't meant to be a touch and go), but probably not spinning out of base to final. From the ground track that PaulS posted, it looks like he might've overshot final. It also looks like he flew a pretty long downwind leg—maybe setting himself up to do a nice stabilized approach after the go around. The terrain rises somewhat quickly once you're that far away from the airport, especially when your reference point is pattern altitude, so it could have been that a tight turn or even just pulling back on the stick was a tempting way to get away from it.
 
Very sad. My personal belief is that student pilots should stick with trainers that have low stall speeds. The 20 stalls at about 56 knots dirty ( maybe a little less I don't have a poh in front of me). The pattern is flown at 100 knots, abeam downwind, 90 on base, and 80 to 85 on final. That's pretty fast compared to a 172 or a 150. I know pilots have gotten their ppl in 20s and 22s, but it just seems more difficult for the student and less likely for an instructor to let things get out of line as much as he would in a trainer as a lesson learning tool. YMMV

Speed management is critical in the SR, and like any airplane there are situations where it can bleed off quickly if you are not on top of it. He had a ground speed of about 90 knots into the base turn. That would be ok for an indicated airspeed, but I'm willing to bet he had at least a 10 knot tail wind at that point. I'm thinking he just got too slow and lost it. It looks like he was a picture taker too. Which I suppose is ok with an instructor, but I think instructors should ban picture taking while PIC solo for students. Although I doubt that was an issue here I think it's still too big of a distraction for a student pilot. Plenty of time for that after you get your license.

Sad story.
 
Tantalum said:
I wonder how effective the envelope protection system on the newer Cirrus would be at helping to prevent something like this
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I thought that won’t kick in below 200 AGL, not sure at what alt this happened. RIP
 
WannFly said:
I thought that won’t kick in below 200 AGL, not sure at what alt this happened. RIP
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You know, that's a good thought, you are probably correct. But this guy was on his base maybe turning to final, so he should have been at least 500 ft agl.
 
WannFly said:
I thought that won’t kick in below 200 AGL, not sure at what alt this happened. RIP
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This is true, under 200 AGL the system is inhibited.. however it appears that this aircraft's chain of events started before that 200 AGL

Anyway.. sad
 
PaulS said:
Very sad. My personal belief is that student pilots should stick with trainers that have low stall speeds. The 20 stalls at about 56 knots dirty ( maybe a little less I don't have a poh in front of me). The pattern is flown at 100 knots, abeam downwind, 90 on base, and 80 to 85 on final. That's pretty fast compared to a 172 or a 150. I know pilots have gotten their ppl in 20s and 22s, but it just seems more difficult for the student and less likely for an instructor to let things get out of line as much as he would in a trainer as a lesson learning tool. YMMV

Speed management is critical in the SR, and like any airplane there are situations where it can bleed off quickly if you are not on top of it. He had a ground speed of about 90 knots into the base turn. That would be ok for an indicated airspeed, but I'm willing to bet he had at least a 10 knot tail wind at that point. I'm thinking he just got too slow and lost it. It looks like he was a picture taker too. Which I suppose is ok with an instructor, but I think instructors should ban picture taking while PIC solo for students. Although I doubt that was an issue here I think it's still too big of a distraction for a student pilot. Plenty of time for that after you get your license.

Sad story.
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I understand the sentiment regarding aircraft used for training. My personal opinion has varied over the years. Now if asked what’s the best trainer my answer is pretty much whatever you want. Just remember they all can kill you if flown improperly or without respect and make sure the instructor is appropriately experienced if it’s not a vanilla trainer normally found in the training environment.
 
PaulS said:
You know, that's a good thought, you are probably correct. But this guy was on his base maybe turning to final, so he should have been at least 500 ft agl.
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Yah then the ESP should have kicked in, but in most places I have heard it’s not going to save your bacon in these base to final stall-spin. I am going to run some scenarios up at altitude and see how and when ESP actually engages.
 
WannFly said:
Yah then the ESP should have kicked in, but in most places I have heard it’s not going to save your bacon in these base to final stall-spin. I am going to run some scenarios up at altitude and see how and when ESP actually engages.
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I went to look up the esp specs and my ipad died. But esp should definitely help in the pattern at base to final, I wouldn't test it there though. I'll get my Ipad going again and see what they say.
 
PaulS said:
I went to look up the esp specs and my ipad died. But esp should definitely help in the pattern at base to final, I wouldn't test it there though. I'll get my Ipad going again and see what they say.
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I researched ESP quite a bit and in theory it should work, it will lower the nose and reduce bank angle, but it’s dependent on airspeed not AOA, so I could see where it might kick in but still not help with the impending stall, especially if someone is making a very tight turn, not coordinated and one wing has stalled.
 
WannFly said:
I researched ESP quite a bit and in theory it should work, it will lower the nose and reduce bank angle, but it’s dependent on airspeed not AOA, so I could see where it might kick in but still not help with the impending stall, especially if someone is making a very tight turn, not coordinated and one wing has stalled.
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Ok, I looked it up, and you are right, it's inhibited below 200 agl. But above that it should work. What it will do is give you an aural airspeed warning and give you tactile feed back if your bank approaches 45 degrees, progressively pushing you back to a lesser bank. Beyond that it also uses the stall warning system, so if the stall warning system indicates a stall, it will apply pressure to unstall the airplane. But, of course, there are limits to what it can do and you can over power it. So if you are hell bent on banking 45+ degrees in a skidding turn at 80 knots and you do it fast, you are probably going to end up inverted headed toward the ground and nothing will help you.
 
Obviously the answer is to maintain your airspeed and fly with finesse, versus yanking and banking.

I fly the Cirrus perspective+ and honestly I never hear or even think of these systems unless I'm training with them. One of the maneuvers you do is an autopilot stall. You set the autopilot in alt select mode then pull the power to idle. The plane slows until the airspeed alert goes off, then the stall warning starts. The plane then automatically gives up altitude to maintain airspeed. To practice steep turns you have to disconnect it or you are fighting it to maintain the bank. It's a cool system, kind of like having a shoulder belt. You never think of it, until it needs to work, then it's great to have versus the alternative.
 
I don't believe there is anything that makes a Cirrus any more sensitive to speeds than any other typical GA single. They are a bit higher, but no more sensitive. Actually pretty docile in a stall.

Sad deal.
 
PaulS said:
Ok, I looked it up, and you are right, it's inhibited below 200 agl. But above that it should work. What it will do is give you an aural airspeed warning and give you tactile feed back if your bank approaches 45 degrees, progressively pushing you back to a lesser bank. Beyond that it also uses the stall warning system, so if the stall warning system indicates a stall, it will apply pressure to unstall the airplane. But, of course, there are limits to what it can do and you can over power it. So if you are hell bent on banking 45+ degrees in a skidding turn at 80 knots and you do it fast, you are probably going to end up inverted headed toward the ground and nothing will help you.
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I don’t understand what is the problem with banking 45 degrees base to final or otherwise .... as long as you keep wings unloaded , 45 degree banks are certainly safer than trying to avoid them with skidding..
 
Is it normal for commenters in Katheryn’s Reports to disparage accident pilots? I’m not going to link it but if you scroll down to the comments there is a poster claiming he runs a fake review website promoting the effectiveness of some certain male enhancement treatment.

Another commenter goes after the flight school itself.
 
Warmi said:
I don’t understand what is the problem with banking 45 degrees base to final or otherwise .... as long as you keep wings unloaded , 45 degree banks are certainly safer than trying to avoid them with skidding..
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It's no problem if you don't screw it up, just like most of flying. But the potential for problem increases as the bank goes up if you don't account for increased stall speed, that's just a fact of life.

My speculation is Cirrus or whomever, decided an operating envelope that they thought was reasonable for pilots to remain in, if you go outside that envelope the system nudges you back inside of it. The parameters include pitch, bank and airspeed. You can bank to 45 in the Cirrus if you want to, but the system is pushing back on you at that point, you can overpower it easily. Same with pitch and airspeed, which are both obviously controlled via pitch inputs by the system. You also need to remember, at least for the Cirrus, that this system was thought out as a compromise for all of the missions the aircraft might be used for, which includes instrument flight where steep banks are frowned upon.

If you decide that you regularly want to bank to 45 degrees or beyond, pitch to beyond +17.5 degrees or -15.5 degrees, fly at stall speed or VNE, then the system can be turned off. I fly with the system and don't even know it's there unless I'm training.
 
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