Cirrus down near Aspen

denverpilot said:
I get it if he knew he was “lost” in that terrain. Like someone else said, he was 30 seconds from impact. If he let the system failure take his priority over navigation up there, he’s at most two minutes from hitting something in most valleys up there at Cirrus speeds.

Thing is, if he could see the terrain he could turn downhill. So I have a sneaky suspicion he couldn’t see.

I keep hearing VMC conditions but small clouds around valleys are common. Maybe a little too much “Oh I’ll just let the autopilot fly me through the little cloud” built by years in the Midwest summer scud? Even instrument rated, that’s not a good idea up there unless you’re on and know for sure you’re on a published approach or departure segment. Even pro crews scare themselves fairly regularly up there.

There’s seriously no wiggle room on flying exactly what’s on the chart, IFR. Those approaches are wedged into the terrain tight at all but the wide valley airports. Eagle and Kremmling are a lot more forgiving than Aspen once you get into their valleys.
Click to expand...

With Eagle, you can land on I-70, on top of all the cars that are completely stopped in the daily traffic jam. Kremmling's practically flatland around here.
 
denverpilot said:
I get it if he knew he was “lost” in that terrain. Like someone else said, he was 30 seconds from impact. If he let the system failure take his priority over navigation up there, he’s at most two minutes from hitting something in most valleys up there at Cirrus speeds.

Thing is, if he could see the terrain he could turn downhill. So I have a sneaky suspicion he couldn’t see.

I keep hearing VMC conditions but small clouds around valleys are common. Maybe a little too much “Oh I’ll just let the autopilot fly me through the little cloud” built by years in the Midwest summer scud? Even instrument rated, that’s not a good idea up there unless you’re on and know for sure you’re on a published approach or departure segment. Even pro crews scare themselves fairly regularly up there.

There’s seriously no wiggle room on flying exactly what’s on the chart, IFR. Those approaches are wedged into the terrain tight at all but the wide valley airports. Eagle and Kremmling are a lot more forgiving than Aspen once you get into their valleys.
Click to expand...

If you listen to the radio calls, it sounds like he was VMC, able to maintain visual terrain clearance and was maneuvering back to the airport to land. After some time he got into IMC and asked for vectors to climb and sort things out. He was below MVA and finally pulled. No details on what prompted that but I'm speculating he may have gotten a TAWS alert, decided he was in too deep, pulled and lived to fly another day.

I think we'll get a pilot account of what happened eventually but the airplane data is probably still on the airplane and I'm doubting it won't be recovered until things melt up there if ever.
 
PaulS said:
If you listen to the radio calls, it sounds like he was VMC, able to maintain visual terrain clearance and was maneuvering back to the airport to land. After some time he got into IMC and asked for vectors to climb and sort things out.
Click to expand...

Haven’t listened but if things aren’t going right up there STAY VMC for effs sake... sigh.
 
murphey said:
With Eagle, you can land on I-70, on top of all the cars that are completely stopped in the daily traffic jam. Kremmling's practically flatland around here.
Click to expand...

I don’t even bother to go up there on weekends anymore. I-70 is a cluster**** from Floyd Hill to Grand Junction. LOL.
 
jallen0 said:
Best quote in the story "Steindler said that the plane’s occupants became upset when the rescue team insisted that they leave their luggage behind."

THAT is the typical impression of Cirrus owners.
Click to expand...

Should have taken the luggage and left the occupants!
 
Wanting luggage after a crash is common. Plenty of cases where passengers were missing after airline crashes that were found at their final destination. Dug their bag out of the wreck, walked into the terminal and boarded another flight.

pulling the chute for a failed AI sounds excessive but I wasn’t there...

survival is not the only metric for evaluating performance. If it is then I think that individual should not be flying.
 
Tantalum said:
Literally, the first reply in this thread.

The anti-Cirrus crap gets so old and tiresome. Holy hell. Give it a freaking rest

...
Click to expand...

Suggest you go back and re-read the post. Carefully this time. :popcorn:
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Wanting luggage after a crash is common
Click to expand...
I think there is a difference in Aunt Becky trying to wrestle her too-big-for-the-overhead-but-Im-not-paying luggage out of the overhead and holding up the slide and potentially causing further injuries in a downed airliner, vs a dude who just survived un injured from a crash with a largely intact plane and wanting his change of clothes, phone charger, laptop, etc for the hotel for the night..

GRG55 said:
Carefully
Click to expand...
The occasional magenta line and 6PC stuff is funny and tongue in cheek, but at some point it gets tiresome.. would none of us really try and take any of our stuff?

PS-if they really didn't have any survival stuff then that's pretty egregious but I don't think that's unique to a Cirrus pilot, and I'd be surprised if their luggage didn't have a single jacket or pair of gloves.. when I lived in Boston half the pilots I knew would rent a plane in January for a flight up to Vermont with nothing more than a sweater and jeans leaving their jacket in the car.. out here people make the trek to Catalina at 4500 without even a single life jacket..

Being under prepared is a GA thing
 
Tantalum said:
I think there is a difference in Aunt Becky trying to wrestle her too-big-for-the-overhead-but-Im-not-paying luggage out of the overhead and holding up the slide and potentially causing further injuries in a downed airliner, vs a dude who just survived un injured from a crash with a largely intact plane and wanting his change of clothes, phone charger, laptop, etc for the hotel for the night..


The occasional magenta line and 6PC stuff is funny and tongue in cheek, but at some point it gets tiresome.. would none of us really try and take any of our stuff?

PS-if they really didn't have any survival stuff then that's pretty egregious but I don't think that's unique to a Cirrus pilot, and I'd be surprised if their luggage didn't have a single jacket or pair of gloves.. when I lived in Boston half the pilots I knew would rent a plane in January for a flight up to Vermont with nothing more than a sweater and jeans leaving their jacket in the car.. out here people make the trek to Catalina at 4500 without even a single life jacket..

Being under prepared is a GA thing
Click to expand...
Not as much as you think. Especially in the minds of the people doing the rescuing...
 
Tantalum said:
That was my point, he has tact and does it cleverly.. others are just vengeful
Click to expand...

I didn’t see anyone in this thread being that bad. I think you have developed a defensive reaction that’s not warranted and overblown. But that’s just my opinion.

Cirrus marketing is all about a particular lifestyle. A very expensive lifestyle. If you’ve ever been to an event, you’ve seen the videos they make. They’re clearly after a particular demographic. And that demographic has a stereotype both on and off the airport. Not really a big deal to acknowledge that, even non-jokingly. They’re looking for buyers of half million dollar aircraft.

It’s all good. Breathe. Nobody is attacking anybody personally. Just jokes about the very well deserved stereotype. Anybody pipes up and says the guy is a 15,000 hour pilot with extensive mountain experience and who flew the Space Shuttle... the jokes will stop. LOL.

Isn’t going to happen, in this case, but that’s part of the stereotype joke fun.

I’m sticking with my opinion that this is just another flatlander not properly prepared to fly in that terrain, including emergencies. The chute saved his ass. Better than scraping him and his family into a bucket as red goo. Yay CAPS. Probably an avoidable pull, however. Oh well.

Insurance rates going up again next year...
 
denverpilot said:
I didn’t see anyone in this thread being that bad. I think you have developed a defensive reaction that’s not warranted and overblown. But that’s just my opinion.

Cirrus marketing is all about a particular lifestyle. A very expensive lifestyle. If you’ve ever been to an event, you’ve seen the videos they make. They’re clearly after a particular demographic. And that demographic has a stereotype both on and off the airport. Not really a big deal to acknowledge that, even non-jokingly. They’re looking for buyers of half million dollar aircraft.

It’s all good. Breathe. Nobody is attacking anybody personally. Just jokes about the very well deserved stereotype. Anybody pipes up and says the guy is a 15,000 hour pilot with extensive mountain experience and who flew the Space Shuttle... the jokes will stop. LOL.

Isn’t going to happen, in this case, but that’s part of the stereotype joke fun.

I’m sticking with my opinion that this is just another flatlander not properly prepared to fly in that terrain, including emergencies. The chute saved his ass. Better than scraping him and his family into a bucket as red goo. Yay CAPS. Probably an avoidable pull, however. Oh well.

Insurance rates going up again next year...
Click to expand...

Half million? Nope, pushing a million now. Anyway, I think your opinion on the cause is probably accurate, either poor prep or brain shutdown with an abnormal situation. It looks to me like he zigged when he should have zagged at least from the flight aware data. It's a good lesson for me paid for by someone else. People can denigrate the chute all they want but it saved two more lives. If they were flying a non chute plane the outcome would have been tragic.
 
denverpilot said:
flatlander not properly prepared to fly in that terrain, including emergencies
Click to expand...
Thanks and I know that no one here is person attacking people, most of time, but why is there this immediate assumption that just because someone spent a million dollars on a plane they're less of a good pilot? This is the part I don't understand.. plenty of planes crash and usually it's pilot error, but the threads here typically look at a more careful investigative process always giving benefit of doubt to the pilot.. however a Cirrus thread pops up and is an immediate assumption that the guy was just a rich ****ole who can't fly that was probably sucking down zimas.. for what it's worth most people I know who fly Cirrus have well over 2000 hours, at least one is a 777 pilot, and they don't have this hatred towards certain other brands and pilots

Losing an airspeed indicator sounds mundane enough, but if you're near or in IMC conditions and it causes cascading issues with the glass cockpit for things to go "haywire" I wonder how it someone in a bonanza or other non chute equipped plane would have handled this situation. we all think we are the best pilot we know, but when crap hits the fan things don't always go as planned, just look at the recent Aerostar tragedy..

Plenty people launch into conditions ill-prepared for a survival situation.. how many people flying rental spam cans out to Block Island in the summer actually bring a life jacket??

some of the stereotyping hate is well deserved, when deserved, but when the first reply to a thread already goes off course and takes the bait it really doesn't make Pilots of America seem like a welcoming community to all aviators

Had this guy crashed in any other aircraft he'd be dead and the reactions here be much different
 
denverpilot said:
I didn’t see anyone in this thread being that bad. I think you have developed a defensive reaction that’s not warranted and overblown. But that’s just my opinion.

Cirrus marketing is all about a particular lifestyle. A very expensive lifestyle. If you’ve ever been to an event, you’ve seen the videos they make. They’re clearly after a particular demographic. And that demographic has a stereotype both on and off the airport. Not really a big deal to acknowledge that, even non-jokingly. They’re looking for buyers of half million dollar aircraft.

It’s all good. Breathe. Nobody is attacking anybody personally. Just jokes about the very well deserved stereotype. Anybody pipes up and says the guy is a 15,000 hour pilot with extensive mountain experience and who flew the Space Shuttle... the jokes will stop. LOL.

Isn’t going to happen, in this case, but that’s part of the stereotype joke fun.

I’m sticking with my opinion that this is just another flatlander not properly prepared to fly in that terrain, including emergencies. The chute saved his ass. Better than scraping him and his family into a bucket as red goo. Yay CAPS. Probably an avoidable pull, however. Oh well.

Insurance rates going up again next year...
Click to expand...
He was perfectly prepared. He had an airplane with a parachute. He could use the chute for warmth if need be. See? All good now.
 
Tantalum said:
That was my point, he has tact and does it cleverly.. others are just vengeful
Click to expand...

Vengeful? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Tantalum said:
...some of the stereotyping hate is well deserved, when deserved, but when the first reply to a thread already goes off course and takes the bait it really doesn't make Pilots of America seem like a welcoming community to all aviators

...
Click to expand...

Suggest you go back and re-read my post for a third time. Extra carefully this time.

Who knows. You might even figure out it's a commentary on the stereotyping we do here on PoA, not a commentary on this or any other specific Cirrus owner/pilot.
 
Tantalum said:
Thanks and I know that no one here is person attacking people, most of time, but why is there this immediate assumption that just because someone spent a million dollars on a plane they're less of a good pilot? This is the part I don't understand.. plenty of planes crash and usually it's pilot error, but the threads here typically look at a more careful investigative process always giving benefit of doubt to the pilot.. however a Cirrus thread pops up and is an immediate assumption that the guy was just a rich ****ole who can't fly that was probably sucking down zimas.. for what it's worth most people I know who fly Cirrus have well over 2000 hours, at least one is a 777 pilot, and they don't have this hatred towards certain other brands and pilots

Losing an airspeed indicator sounds mundane enough, but if you're near or in IMC conditions and it causes cascading issues with the glass cockpit for things to go "haywire" I wonder how it someone in a bonanza or other non chute equipped plane would have handled this situation. we all think we are the best pilot we know, but when crap hits the fan things don't always go as planned, just look at the recent Aerostar tragedy..

Plenty people launch into conditions ill-prepared for a survival situation.. how many people flying rental spam cans out to Block Island in the summer actually bring a life jacket??

some of the stereotyping hate is well deserved, when deserved, but when the first reply to a thread already goes off course and takes the bait it really doesn't make Pilots of America seem like a welcoming community to all aviators

Had this guy crashed in any other aircraft he'd be dead and the reactions here be much different
Click to expand...

In the 60’s you could replace cirrus with bonanza and the jokes would be the same. Hopefully in 2080 there will be a bunch of broke assss cirrus pilots giving some rich A hole a hard time.

let it go dude. Not worth your time.
 
Tantalum said:
T .... but why is there this immediate assumption that just because someone spent a million dollars on a plane they're less of a good pilot?
Click to expand...

I don't ... but my only experience with Cirri pilots has been them announcing a straight in and blowing up the pattern causing 3-6 planes to extend or exit to "accommodate" their straight in approach. We have quite a bit of student activity on weekends so there's always at least two students consistently doing TNG's. I see this at least once a month .... OTOH, having flown a Tiger for 11 years and now the RV7A for 2 years, I get to hear about "RVers" always wanting the overhead break or can't fly because they spent all their time building ...
 
G-Man said:
In Aspen, in winter... I don't think you _can_ have appropriate clothing for extended and/or overnight exposure. At the least, it'd be a survival suit, and you probably couldn't fly in that getup.
And, yeah, I'd be ****ed about my luggage, too. "Yes, I'm glad we're alive, and I'd like to take with me the things I need for survival."
Click to expand...

Do you seriously think they had anything much in their luggage for "survival". Doubtful.
The SAR folks snowshoed in to find them and get them out. The reports are they refused medical attention once they were out of there. That doesn't seem all that smart to me, so I think there's a potential lack of judgement issue throughout this episode right from launch. Their being ***ed about having to leave their luggage behind strikes me as more of the same. But it's a free country, so I'm sure they're welcome to make their own arrangements to go back, properly clothed and equipped, to retrieve their own luggage. Expecting SAR personnel to be their porters is a bit much.
 
steingar said:
In the book of Steingar, flying around rocks IFR is rank foolishness. You make a navigation error in Flatistan you get lost. You make one around rocks you get dead. Just how I see it. I've never been in that big a rush to chance rocks in weather. But then again, I'm just a mere mortal, and not an important Cirrus person.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:
 
GRG55 said:
Expecting SAR personnel to be their porters is a bit much.
Click to expand...
Do you know for a fact they were asking SAR folks to carry their bags for them instead of just asking if they could carry their bags themselves?
 
RE: Being equipped for the winter
-Here is the part of the article that says they weren't equipped. I'm sure they likely had a hat, gloves, etc., what they probably DIDN'T have was a tent, sleeping back, solar blanket, survival gear like knives, way to start a fire, etc. I have no idea, but many here seem to make the generalization that this guy was in t shirt, shorts, and sandals.. I'm quite certain they had "some" warm clothes, but probably not legit survival gear. Some modicum of reason there is warranted. Also, if I was on the cell phone in the woods after a plane crash and they asked me if I could spend the night, I'd probably also say whatever I had to to get rescue immediately as well, even if I had solar blanket, and all that, I'd want to get the hell out of there, and without proper survival training most people won't know how to start a fire with a magnesium lighter anyway
upload_2020-2-4_16-3-16.png

RE: "how come he can't fly with a failed airspeed indicator"
-Probably can just fine for the experienced, or for those that have a CFI next to them and they're under the hood. With your wife, in IMC, near mountains.. that split second choice probably saved his life vs starting to try and hand fly, troubleshoot with checklists, etc. Also, if your first indication is a "stall" and you are IMC, then maybe your AHRS is wrong, and not your ASI? Hindsight is 20/20.. I can be sympathetic to an initial potential panic and not freezing and pulling instead
upload_2020-2-4_16-3-48.png

RE: using the cell phone and the plane's own lights
-Three things:
--1) the fact that they had cell service is AWESOME
--2) did the ELT not go off?
--3) with the plane being intact and having working lights., etc is a big help
upload_2020-2-4_16-4-17.png

RE: getting upset that they couldn't take their stuff
--I don't think anyone asked that the SAR folks carry their stuff out.. given that they likely will never see their stuff again, or at least not until the spring, I would try to take a couple things as well..
--PS, sounds like they were able to hike out in less than 3 hrs, in the dark.. is there anything legally prohibiting this guy from hiking back out there during the day, to get his stuff? More a genuine curiosity question: Sounds like the plane is not that far.. 2-3 hrs hiking on a hill in deep snow is probably closer than you'd imagine.. like maybe even just half a mile.. personally I would be tempted to get out there on a clear morning at 8am with my dog and GPS and get at least some of my important stuff out.. sounds like you'd be back by early afternoon
upload_2020-2-4_16-5-0.png
upload_2020-2-4_16-5-27.png
 
danhagan said:
I don't ... but my only experience with Cirri pilots has been them announcing a straight in and blowing up the pattern causing 3-6 planes to extend or exit to "accommodate" their straight in approach. We have quite a bit of student activity on weekends so there's always at least two students consistently doing TNG's. I see this at least once a month .... OTOH, having flown a Tiger for 11 years and now the RV7A for 2 years, I get to hear about "RVers" always wanting the overhead break or can't fly because they spent all their time building ...
Click to expand...
One of the very best light GA pilots I ever flew with as an instructor was a Cirrus pilot.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Do you know for a fact they were asking SAR folks to carry their bags for them instead of just asking if they could carry their bags themselves?
Click to expand...

Do you know for a fact they could carry it out themselves?

The snow at my ranch, where I live in the lee slopes of the Rockies is thigh deep right now. Other than the tracks the horses leave, you can't walk off the plowed areas without snowshoes. Any idea what that's like trying do that on a slope holding something bulky in your arms?

Put yourself in the position of the people that came to rescue them. The only bit of good judgement this couple seem to have possessed is choosing to fly a Cirrus, which along with the rescuers saved their azzes. Wanna bet they didn't learn a damn thing from this?
 
Last edited:
GRG55 said:
Do you know for a fact they could carry it out themselves?
Click to expand...
I don't know that for a fact. I also don't know for a fact that they couldn't. I believe its been reported that they refused any kind of medical checkout which at least suggests they could have been able to walk under their own power and therefore at least believed they would have been capable of carrying some of their possessions out with them.

The snow at my ranch, where I live in the lee slopes of the Rockies is thigh deep right now. Other than the tracks the horses leave, you can't walk off the plowed areas without snowshoes. Any idea what that's like trying do that on a slope holding something bulky in your arms?
Click to expand...
Nope, no idea. Wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they didn't either. What does that have to do with assuming they expected the rescuers to carry their bags out for them?

Wanna bet they didn't learn a damn thing from this?
Click to expand...
Well from the sound of it, I'm not nearly as bitter as you so no, I don't want to bet that.
 
Luggage can contain medical devices and prescription medicines. Mine would have my CPAP and the levothyroxine I must take because my thyroid was removed in 2007.

I'd also like to point out nine people died in a crash a few days ago because of VFR into IMC. The Cirrus pilot avoided that fate, because he had a chute. It's ridiculous to heap criticism on a pilot because he got in over his head. That happens all the time. Some of you doing the stereotyping and denigration could end up in the same situation.

We'll try to be more circumspect discussing your end.
 
denverpilot said:
I don’t even bother to go up there on weekends anymore. I-70 is a cluster**** from Floyd Hill to Grand Junction. LOL.
Click to expand...

I have an I-70 story to share.

Back around 1996 my wife and I went on a roundabout trip from Dallas to LA to SF, then Tahoe to Vegas to Grand Junction, and we were heading towards Denver to visit one of my brothers and then back to Dallas. It turned out to be a 5,000 mile trip.

The weather was warm and the day sunny, as we went through the Eisenhower tunnel and headed downhill. We were driving an almost new F-350 crew cab with an eight foot bed and a really tall topper on the bed, all black with large tires and wheels. This was not a small vehicle.

Just a mile or two after traversing the tunnel, I was in the right lane going about 65, and looking in the mirror I noticed a car in the left lane overtaking us. As the car pulled even with us, the driver jerked the car to the right and hit the truck. Hard. I swerved to the shoulder, looked over at the guy, and he had a blank look on his face.

By that time we were approaching the Georgetown exit, both of us left the highway, and pulled into a parking lot. The truck was damaged from the front fender to the rear wheel, a good fifteen feet of bent metal. I was not amused, and blasted the guy for several minutes while my wife called the troopers.

The guy was saying he didn't see me, but it wasn't exactly a normal lane change. It was like he was making a right turn, he hit us so hard.

The trooper showed up, interviewed us individually, and got our stories. I went first. When the other guy got out of the cruiser, the trooper pulled out his ticket book and began writing.

The guy looked at me forlornly, and said "He's going to give me a ticket. Can you believe that?" In the most sarcastic manner I could muster, I said "No fooling? Really?" It went right over his head.

Some people.
 
Last edited:
Fun article to read (HT to the MRA....I used to live there and that group is fantastic).

What's interesting is that I had the instruments on a SR20 that I fly (2003 G2) got "haywire" with the engine sounding exactly the same, backup instruments working well and no change in attitude/altitude/airspeed. I had the luxury of having 2 fellow pilots on board (one a CFII), and I was in VFR conditions. It'll be interesting to see what the NTSB reports says in about 12 months.

link: https://www.aspentimes.com/news/deep-snow-steep-slope-complicated-plane-crash-rescue-near-aspen/

PS: for entertainment, read the comments. Makes me realize how ignorant of GA the vast majority of the people are in this modern world. It also makes me realize how important it is for us GA pilots to do better "marketing" so that we can protect our right to fly. My personal plug: all of us would benefit if we each made an effort to commit to giving someone a ride 1x/month (and not just young eagles or CAP cadets...perhaps some of their parents as well)
 
Tantalum said:
Had this guy crashed in any other aircraft he'd be dead and the reactions here be much different.
Click to expand...
Had the cause of the crash been the same as the cause of the pull, I suspect the reaction would be pretty much the same, except there'd be some sadness that two people were dead. We don't know all the facts yet, and there seems to be some confusion over whether the failed instrument was an AI or ASI, but I doubt anyone here would rather the pilot and passenger were dead. Speaking only for myself, I'm glad when even incompetent pilots or those suffering from self-inflicted predicaments survive an incident because of the parachute. But I do think that's a separate category of cirrus "save" and we should all be honest about what the parachute is saving the pilot from.
 
3393RP said:
Some of you doing the stereotyping and denigration could end up in the same situation.
Click to expand...

Every single one of us can get in this situation.

Those of us without a chute need to deploy skill in these situations instead.

Cirrus crash reporting always highlights the 'save' aspect, and never the steps where the cirrus pilot attempted skill instead of the chute and got to an unwinnable predicament and exhausted their abilities. As such, we without chutes don't get to learn any lessons about the accident. We just learn that the pilot noped out of the situation via red handle and survived long enough to regret their luggage. We're left to assume that the cirrus pilot used the chute _instead_ of using pilot skill, and make inferences accordingly _about_ how much of that skill was present in the first place. I don't think it's jealousy so much as resentment at 'reporting news we can't use'.

Lost ASI in VMC shouldn't result in a chute pull in IMC, but I wasn't there, and that part of the story wasn't well documented, so I learned nothing from this one, other than to pack lighter if visiting the rockies. And to make sure my cellphone stays charged and to crash in cell service range. Is it safe to assume from the article that if they had no cell phone service, they'd be coyote food?
 
What is an interesting tidbit.....the ELT did not go off because of the type of “landing”. Perhaps BAS/Cirrus should have a trigger on the chute that automatically sets off the ELT.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top