Cirrus ads

[Henning]

And how do you know it isn't achieved already?

We're already over on the safety side, not enough stupid people getting themselves killed for being stupid. We make them work for it now, it used to be easy. Between Medicine and 'Culture of Safety' we have screwed up both the population and evolution, the combined effect of which means idiots run our world.

 

[olasek]

Huh???

 

[dans2992]

I think he's saying we have an over protective "nanny state" culture.

 

[FloridaPilot]

Ha! That was exactly the example I was gonna use!

BOTH you guys are faster than me I was thinking the same thing!

 

[Henning]

Huh???

Let me quote another thread about a Cirrus with an incapacitated pilot that went down, and you may understand better. These quotes are from people who were raised to believe everyone must live.


Re: SR22 overflies SFRA, pilot incapacitated
Quote:
Al 16 hours ago
So they just escorted him to his death? I guess as long as he flew away from the White House it was every man for himself, huh.
Quote:
Anthony Popovich 11 hours ago
they just flew alongside the unconscious pilots' plane & watched it crash into the ocean? What kind of cold and cruel people do we have flying these military planes? Yeah, we see him. We'll just wait till he crashes then go home. If they weren't so callous, all of them, not just the F-16 pilots, they should have tried to help the stricken pilot. Maybe try to rescue him from his plane from another plane or helicopter. They should have some sort of laws to keep military pilots away from the elderly or young children.
Quote:
J. V. DZUGASHVILI 16 hours ago
Why wasn't the Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) deployed by the F-16 pilots?
They could have easily initiated a soft water landing by the Cirrus SR22.
Quote:
J. V. DZUGASHVILI 17 hours ago
If there were two F-16s, why not deploy a net between them to catch the plane, once it ran out of fuel?
Then they return to shore and hand it off to a rescue copter
Quote:
Andrew F 16 hours ago
It is surprising that there are not nets strung between large aircraft that can sweep up smaller aircraft that have problems.
Quote:
WhiskeyBum 12 hours ago
Couldn't one of them have climbed out , and into his plane to take the controls , or at least knocked on his window to wake him up ?
They were sent up there to kill him , and they did , through doing nothing .
Quote:
Sunshine 15 hours ago
Wait, what? Didn't they build the f-16 in the 1970s? How old is our Air Force?
Quote:
chevfan_1 18 hours ago
During times like this why don't they send the f22. Much faster and more capable plane.
Quote:
H2O 4 hours ago
We have a restricted airspace over Washington D.C.? THAT is news, but considering those that supposedly work there are always ignoring the American people it just confirms that it IS another country and not part of the U.S.
Quote:
flowerc 16 hours ago
This is sure an expensive rescue and not to mention the cost of the F-16s to monitor this pilot, was he drunk, in any case there sure have been a lot of people flying small planes; having accidents a lot! These people should not have a license to fly!! there should be a new rule about getting your pilot license, it should be more hours and they should be evaluated every year!!
this is getting ridiculous!
Quote:
Kate 2 hours ago
This is why humans should not fly. If mankind was meant to fly in the sky like that we would have wings. When the old gods return they will smite down all those sinners who dare mock them.
Quote:
John 17 hours ago
So a plane flying from Wisconsin to Virginia is only require to have 1 pilot and no co-pilot? I am surprised there are not more planes falling from the sky everyday.
Quote:
Yahoo 1 hour ago
They assume he was dead, but what if he was just asleep? Too bad they don't have horns on those jets.
Quote:
boby b 16 hours ago
really nothing could have been done to save him!!! Maybe a hook or something, a parachute, or I don't know, something. I am really dead scared of small planes. There is nothing you can do if something bad happens. Maybe some adjustments like a eject seat be incorporated to them in future. convalescents to family, and fighter pilots, I guess they are already sad, so do not feel bad, it happens. Just a lesson for future.

 

[Henning]

I think he's saying we have an over protective "nanny state" culture.

No no no, far worse, the Nanny State is just a result of the culture. We don't believe in mortality anymore, we don't let people die. It's not just safety but medicine as well.

 

[dans2992]

No no no, far worse, the Nanny State is just a result of the culture. We don't believe in mortality anymore, we don't let people die. It's not just safety but medicine as well.

Hence the high cost of medical care. "We'll save you no matter WHAT it costs"

 

[Kristin]

THIS! I've always felt that the Cirrus marketing team had more to do with the planes safety record than anyone on the engineering side of the house. Just because it has a parachute doesn't mean it is safe for everyone who can write the check! The effort to equate an airplane to a luxury car doesn't respect the training and knowledge required to safely operate a high performance airplane, and many of the new buyers don't have the experience to know what the sales guy isn't telling them.

During OSH 2008, I went off campus to do some shopping. I am not sure exactly where we were, but we drove up over a bridge, under which ran a waterway with an adjacent marina. Parked in a grassy area, in front of a building which may have been a yacht club, sat a brand new Cirrus. It didn't parachute in, so it must have been placed there. Clearly, Cirrus was marketing to people who were not yet pilots.

 

[Henning]

During OSH 2008, I went off campus to do some shopping. I am not sure exactly where we were, but we drove up over a bridge, under which ran a waterway with an adjacent marina. Parked in a grassy area, in front of a building which may have been a yacht club, sat a brand new Cirrus. It didn't parachute in, so it must have been placed there. Clearly, Cirrus was marketing to people who were not yet pilots.

You bet! They park one at Miami Beach Marina occasionally as well as other high dollar events that high wealth people attend. Cirrus is probably directly responsible for half the new start, non aviation career aspirant, student pilots out there even if they don't end up in a Cirrus because Cirrus exposed them and got them thinking about it.

 

[dans2992]

There was a Lancair Evolution at the Barrett-Jackson car auction a couple years ago.

 

[iflyforfun]

Wait ...... this is actually REAL?!?!?!?!?
YIKES!

I simply don't get the problem with this. Aviation can be a shockingly useful tool. Yeah, if you use the tool incorrectly, it will hurt/harm/kill you but the same can be said of cars and saws.

What is wrong with you guys ... advertising that flying is a productivity tool is somehow crazy??? I simply don't get it.

WAIT, ARE YOU ACTUALLY SAYING THAT FLYING CAN BE USEFUL? We all know it is just for rich people to flit about with. What stupid, crazy, insane kind of person would ever use general aviation to make themselves more productive? We need to put a stop to this!

Am I on a flying site or www.nannystate.com?

It's been a while, but I've done exactly what the ad implies (though not in a Cirrus). I have made sales call in 3 cities in the same state flying city to city. Same trip made by car would have required two full days and a night in a hotel. Trip from Lafayette, IN to Saint Louis is almost 5 hours if you stop to stretch you legs and are headed to the South West side of town (where I went). Need to see two customers ... two day trip if you drive, easy day trip if you fly.

How about Lafayette to Cleveland - 5+ hours by car, 2 by plane. Do that round trip to see a single important customer a few times by car and see what you think of it.

Okay, don't fly if the weather is **** and will kill you ... no kidding. That is what flight training is for. I used my plane for fun and for business and was never shy about how much of a productivity tool it was. It seems that this makes me reckless, dangerous and simply out to kill people.

You all need to get a grip and stop doing your best to kill our avocation.

 

[Henning]

There certainly are applications where GA is useful and efficient, multiple offices/sites in a day where your time value is greater than the cost differential of other means of transportation is the primary one. That said, those operations make up a statistically insignificant part of self piloted GA flying. Most private GA flying can only be justified by calculating in the value of fun, which is perfectly fine and appropriate in my book to assign whatever value you please to. The issue is not whether to do it (fly) or not, the issue is honesty in mental accounting. When you start to lie to yourself in one aspect of aviation, you start to lie to yourself in other aspects which increases your risk factor. Example: You buy a plane rationalizing it on business trip value. In order to realize that rationalization though, it may very easily lead to other rationalization a when faced with canceling trips due to questionable 'go' issues. OTOH if you justify your flying with, "this is a **** load of fun and I can afford it", then when you are planning and the weather looks marginal or the plane won't make RPM down the runway, you'll be more inclined to come to a conclusion of, " This doesn't look like fun" and cancel a flight that you probably shouldn't make.

I think that's most people's problem with Cirrus advertising, it paints an incomplete picture of the limitations while overselling the positives. I don't much like it, but in the great scheme of advertising lies, semi, & untruths, it's right in the mainstream and should be expected in a caveat emptor society.

 

[James331]

Not just Cirrus.

I thought this Cessna ad sent a horrible message:

Holy crap! That really, really bad!

Yeah, convective activity with a squall line and tops at 40k, bah, I'm rich and can't afford to "wait it out". Lol

I'd just be honest.

"We install a parachute standard, because we know you have more money than brains"

 

[FastEddieB]

I'd just be honest.

"We install a parachute standard, because we know you have more money than brains"

Having owned a Cirrus, I'll be even more honest...

That's a Cessna ad. No parachute involved.

 

[Henning]

Holy crap! That really, really bad!

Yeah, convective activity with a squall line and tops at 40k, bah, I'm rich and can't afford to "wait it out". Lol

I'd just be honest.

"We install a parachute standard, because we know you have more money than brains"

That's no Cirrus' ad either, that's Cessna's and they have no chute. This is kinda what I was pointing out, this is how ALL advertising in America works. A Century ago PT Barnum wrote the book on American business ethic, "The public is stupid and gullible and believe anything you make them want to believe, therefore should be divested of all their money so they don't do something stupid with it like hang on to it or give it to someone else.", and it hasn't changed since.

 

[FastEddieB]

I simply don't get the problem with this.

The "problem" screamed out at me when I first saw the ad a few years ago and still screams out at me now.

What is the clear implication when he says: "There isn't an option. That's just what I need to do."

To me, it's that for his business to prosper he MUST go - which is a horrible and potentially lethal mindset. One must always be prepared to scratch a flight and a business meeting for a wide variety of reasons - weather, mechanical issue, health, whatever.

The ad virtually makes a case for "get-there-itis". Good for business, I guess, but historically bad for longevity.

I still find the last line especially ironic. I would change it to:

"I CAN always afford to wait it out today, because if don't, and push on regardless, tomorrow might not happen. BECAUSE I'LL BE DEAD!!!"

Nothing to do with a nanny state or pilots being wimps or whatever. Just a long history of a mindset that can kill.

 

[Dr. O]

A manufacturer cannot exist without selling his product for a profit
He cannot sell without customers who will his buy his product
Customers cannot buy if they are not aware of the product
Hence advertising
Advertising agencies do not care about morality, or utility, or anything except getting a response to the ads that pleases their customer so that they can attract other customers and stay in business
Complicated huh?
If you answered yes, please seek help

Poor old Cirrus (sigh) Weeping all the way to the bank
Ya know, there are folks out there who do have 700K but do not drive a porsche, or wear a rolex, or buy a cirrus (a real problem for porsche/rolex/cirrus)
Oh yeah, and on the vegan girl. Lamb shank wasn't the only thing that was never going to pass her lips. Good call .

 

[Henning]

The "problem" screamed out at me when I first sea the ad.

What is the clear implication when he says: "There isn't an option. That's just what I need to do."

To me, it's that for his business to prosper he MUST go - which is a horrible and potentially lethal mindset. One must always be prepared to scratch a flight and a business meeting for a wide variety of reasons - weather, mechanical issue, health, whatever.

I still find the last line especially ironic. I would change it to:

"I CAN always afford to wait it out today, because if don't, and push on regardless, tomorrow might not happen. BECAUSE I'LL BE DEAD!!!"

Nothing to do with a nanny state or pilots being ******* or whatever. Just a long history of a mindset that can kill.

What's horrible about it? If you think it's horrible, then you have to believe our entire culture is horrible (with which I would not disagree). This ad perfectly exemplifies the problem with our society. This is the rational you see when you have a culture where money is the most valuable thing that exists. "I can't not make that deal." That says, 'that money is more valuable than my life (which BTW is insured for a lot of money, so when I die, the my potential future monetary value will be protected regardless my status among the living).'

This is the same thinking that is going to fail us and give us the Islamic States of America.

 

[marcoseddi]

Got to say what a worthless thread lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FastEddieB]

What's horrible about it? If you think it's horrible, then you have to believe our entire culture is horrible (with which I would not disagree). This ad perfectly exemplifies the problem with our society. This is the rational you see when you have a culture where money is the most valuable thing that exists. "I can't not make that deal." That says, 'that money is more valuable than my life (which BTW is insured for a lot of money, so when I die, the my potential future monetary value will be protected regardless my status among the living).'

This is the same thinking that is going to fail us and give us the Islamic States of America.

I know, I know.

Usery rears it's ugly head again!

 

[James331]

Having owned a Cirrus, I'll be even more honest...

That's a Cessna ad. No parachute involved.

I got that :wink2:

It's not the parachute or cirrus or Cessna, it's the mindset behind it.

The gimmicks over skills, or "safety record" over safety mindset.

 

[Henning]

I know, I know.

Usery rears it's ugly head again!

If you define usury as valuing money over life (I can accept that) then yes it does. It's funny how people connect the dots and get offended in one instance, yet not in instances where media help in self deception benefits them.

 

[jmp470]

I have not added to this topic, but read it all. The responses are funny to me, as it shows that pilots are so pessimistic. The default is that he cannot do that and that society is gullible, etc. Or that we live in a nanny state, etc.... So many Debbie Downers here its unreal! Some will what if it all the way to the pilots death!

4 cities in 1 day is very doable.

 

[Henning]

I have not added to this topic, but read it all. The responses are funny to me, as it shows that pilots are so pessimistic. The default is that he cannot do that and that society is gullible, etc. Or that we live in a nanny state, etc.... So many Debbie Downers here its unreal! Some will what if it all the way to the pilots death!

4 cities in 1 day is very doable.

There is no question whatsoever that 4 cities in a day is doable. Depending on where you live you can do it safely in a Corvalis or whatever they call it now, between 240 and 350 days of the year. The ad portrays an image of it always being able to get through, and that is misleading and can cause pilots to rationalize setting off in conditions that can, and have proven to, get them killed; not that there's anything wrong with that, at least by our cultural standards.

 

[JasonM]

Here's how I read it

 

[jmp470]

There is no question whatsoever that 4 cities in a day is doable. Depending on where you live you can do it safely in a Corvalis or whatever they call it now, between 240 and 350 days of the year. The ad portrays an image of it always being able to get through, and that is misleading and can cause pilots to rationalize setting off in conditions that can, and have proven to, get them killed; not that there's anything wrong with that, at least by our cultural standards.

BS... the add just says its doable... it doesn't have to specify all the little details.... It's job is to get you to think about it... then... call the number....


Show me 1 country AD that shows a new car and lists all the types of fatal ways you can die in it...

 

[FastEddieB]

From the ad:

"There isn't an option."

Does anyone here really NOT see that that's an awful attitude for a pilot to have?

Flies in the face of any sort of Aeronautical Decision Making, where always having options is a key element.

It could easily have touted the utility angle while still reining in some of the hyperbole.

 

[Henning]

BS... the add just says its doable... it doesn't have to specify all the little details.... It's job is to get you to think about it... then... call the number....


Show me 1 country AD that shows a new car and lists all the types of fatal ways you can die in it...

No, the ad does not say "doable", the ad says "I can't afford to wait" implying with this machine you won't 'have to wait it out' and that is very misleading and incorrect. "It is what we in the Royal Navy call a lie."

 

[James331]

I have not added to this topic, but read it all. The responses are funny to me, as it shows that pilots are so pessimistic. The default is that he cannot do that and that society is gullible, etc. Or that we live in a nanny state, etc.... So many Debbie Downers here its unreal! Some will what if it all the way to the pilots death!

4 cities in 1 day is very doable.

It would be like the advert for my Vette saying "you're richer than most, and you're car is more capable, speed limits don't apply"

 

[jmp470]

Fast Eddie and Henning, your reading way to much into the Cessna AD... for clarification read the fine print. Please re-read the fine print on the bottom where it discusses how owning a plane can add $ to a business. And yes, many times a shake of the hand seals deals!

Also, you both infer weather delays, again. What if the meaning behind the poster was TSA lines. He could not jump on a commercial airline and wait through TSA lines to get to 4 cities, etc....

Both of your previous experiences, as CFI and 1,000's of hours have blurred your vision of the AD.

 

[jmp470]

To a business man with no aviation experience, his time delay is probably not weather... it could very easy be commercial flights available, or TSA lines, etc....

 

[DutchessFlier]

The type of people that Cirrus is targeting are exactly the kind of people who buy cars/planes/boats to make a statement. The ads aren't targeted at middle-class guys, they're targeted at six-figure salary + stock option guys. It's not wrong, but just about any aircraft maker out there that sells for $250K+ new isn't marketing to someone like myself.

Check out the prices for new C-172's and C-182's: $350K+

 

[Henning]

To a business man with no aviation experience, his time delay is probably not weather... it could very easy be commercial flights available, or TSA lines, etc....

But the ad implies "no waiting", that will not be a reality.

 

[jmp470]

But the ad implies "no waiting", that will not be a reality.

implies it to you...

 

[Henning]

implies it to you...

I don't see how it implies anything else. Actually I think it's a great ploy. Get them invested into it, discover how limited your capabilities with a Corvalis are and how much better you could do with a new Mustang for a little more.

 

[jmp470]

I don't see how it implies anything else. Actually I think it's a great ploy. Get them invested into it, discover how limited your capabilities with a Corvalis are and how much better you could do with a new Mustang for a little more.

You have it all wrong! You get them in the TT, milk the sub $1M out of them. Then say, well for an even better dispatch rate look at the mustang. Then milk them for $3M. Once they get max tax write off, you get them hooked on the new M2, with the latest g2000 touch screen, milk them for another $4M.

You have to do it incrementally as you gain $7.7M, were as if they went straight to the M2, then they would only spend $4M.

On top of that you get them a PPL, then IFR, multi, and type rating in each!

Think of how much $, he or she just spent on economic recovery! You must think of the children, what type of selfish prick goes straight to the M2?

 

[skynewbie]

Holy cow batman! I agree these ads are horrible and give a bad image to pilots. Nothing against Cirrus or Cessna but the marketing is just plain WRONG and sends a negative message.

 

[JHW]

Holy cow batman! I agree these ads are horrible and give a bad image to pilots. Nothing against Cirrus or Cessna but the marketing is just plain WRONG and sends a negative message.

So here's one data point that the ad is ineffective. A chronic non-buyer of airplanes is unswayed in his non-ownership discipline.

 

[skynewbie]

Hey Jeff,

Lets refrain from personal ad hominem attacks shall we?



Back to topic, these ads encourage dangerous pilot mind set. Nothing against Cirrus or Cessna as they need to sell planes but they could have picked a different marketing message than "get there at all costs" without considering risk.

 

[iflyforfun]

From the ad:

"There isn't an option."

Does anyone here really NOT see that that's an awful attitude for a pilot to have?

Flies in the face of any sort of Aeronautical Decision Making, where always having options is a key element.

It could easily have touted the utility angle while still reining in some of the hyperbole.

It is an ADVERTISEMENT, not a training manual. It is not marketing to pilots, it is marketing to non-pilots. It is the job of the instructor to ... uhhh, I don't know ... instruct. This is a wing, this is a rudder, this is what you do to go fast, this is how to handle a stall, that is a t-storm, etc.

Agree this would be a very bad attitude for a pilot. But this ADVERTISEMENT isn't INSTRUCTION. If it gets someone through the door, the add has done its job.