Chicago to Santa Monica - routing

[ArrowFlyer86]

Saw your post about Nebraska; I was also surprised by the vast emptiness of Nebraska. If you happen to need a fuel stop in Nebraska on the way home, grab a crew car, run into town, and go to Runza. Best fast food I've ever had, and only exists in Nebraska for some reason. I find myself looking for reasons to go to Nebraska now, although so far I've been unsuccessful.

Good to know!
I stopped at Central Nebraska Regional thinking it'd be a good spot to spend the night. But apparently there is a "Husker Harvest" farm convention of some sort going on there and even a Super 8 motel was >200$ for the night... so I just went ahead and got the hell out of Nebraska.

But they did have quite the FBO statue... (It was a super friendly FBO btw... par for the course for NE).

 

[ChopAndDrop]

@ArrowFlyer86 I noticed you have PSP on your route.

The route I'm considering is essentially Chicago -> El Paso -> Tucson -> Phoenix -> Santa Monica.

Don’t know if you plan on stop at that airport but here’s my story:

I used PSP (Palm Springs) as a fuel stop on my trip, not knowing what I was getting into. Hey, the chart says it’s a civilian airport, and there’s AvGas there, so why not ???

Before landing, I get a hold at Thermal VOR (the Hold is not shown on the enroute charts but is part of the approach charts). It was clear VFR, but if this was in IMC there’s mountains nearby, so make sure you are holding on the correct side. (That’s an indication of how busy they were. )

Then I fly the RNAV approach, because everyone else is doing to also (even though VFR) and it’s my first time and unfamiliar with the airport, so I go along. The RNAV actually takes you around in a loop around the airport. I didn’t realize it but it’s because all the other planes are private jets and so they are following IFR procedures even though it’s clear outside (their own part 135 rules?).

Then I land, I realize the whole airport of Palm Springs is private Jets. I’m one of 3 other propeller planes on the airport, and the other two are newer Cirrus SR22’s. I am marshaled to a parking spot between a corporate jet on one side and a Cirrus vision jet on the other side.

I go into the FBO, everyone there is passengers, everyone is all dolled-up like they’re are going to a fancy dinner. I’m the only person in the FBO building that’s wearing shorts and a t-shirt. I put on my airport badge from my home airport, so I don’t get mistaken for a homeless person and kicked-out.

“Make sure it’s AvGas” I say loudly to the front desk, because they might be unfamiliar with that concept. The chart says they have Oxygen service , so I ask to refill my tank, but the lady at the FBO desk has no idea what I’m talking about or how to do it. Eventually figure out only the on-field Mechanic does it, and it’s the weekend so nobody is around to refill my o2 tank (I had enough o2 to complete the trip, but was getting low).
They direct me to go to the Pilots room, everyone there is dressed like a corporate pilot with dress-shirt and chevrons on epaulets. After a few minutes of flight planning in my iPad, I go back to the desk and pay for fuel.

Going out to my plane i startup and taxi out. I’m in a line of ~ 4 other aircraft. Corporate jets, private jets, and a I’m directly behind a Vision Jet. It takes us about 20 minutes of waiting on the taxiway before i get to the runway for takeoff.

I had planned a flight route northwest from PSP with a Victor airway 386. According to the MOCA shown should be okay at 10k so I filed for 10k Ft. The controller tells me my filed altitude is wrong and I must go to 12k Ft before he’ll let me go northwest (out of the valley).
I reply “there’s no way I can get the climb performance to get to 12k that soon”, he says he’ll have to reroute me, we eventually compromise at a block clearance that allows me to fly at 11K ft as I cross the mountains at YUCCA.
After SOGGI they give me an amended clearance that lets me cut-the-corner near Edward’s (EDW) which was nice to see.

I had good visibility but still confused why the v386 MOCA shown was low enough (9400) that my 10k filed altitude should be fine, but hey I can’t argue with the controller on-frequency, so whatever.

I learned alot on that trip.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

@ArrowFlyer86 I noticed you have PSP on your route.

Don’t know if you plan on stop at that airport but here’s my story:

I used PSP (Palm Springs) as a fuel stop on my trip, not knowing what I was getting into. Hey, the chart says it’s a civilian airport, and there’s AvGas there, so why not ???

Before landing, I get a hold at Thermal VOR (the Hold is not shown on the enroute charts but is part of the approach charts). It was clear VFR, but if this was in IMC there’s mountains nearby, so make sure you are holding on the correct side. (That’s an indication of how busy they were. )

Then I fly the RNAV approach, because everyone else is doing to also (even though VFR) and it’s my first time and unfamiliar with the airport, so I go along. The RNAV actually takes you around in a loop around the airport. I didn’t realize it but it’s because all the other planes are private jets and so they are following IFR procedures even though it’s clear outside (their own part 135 rules?).

Then I land, I realize the whole airport of Palm Springs is private Jets. I’m one of 3 other propeller planes on the airport, and the other two are newer Cirrus SR22’s. I am marshaled to a parking spot between a corporate jet on one side and a Cirrus vision jet on the other side.

I go into the FBO, everyone there is passengers, everyone is all dolled-up like they’re are going to a fancy dinner. I’m the only person in the FBO building that’s wearing shorts and a t-shirt. I put on my airport badge from my home airport, so I don’t get mistaken for a homeless person and kicked-out.

“Make sure it’s AvGas” I say loudly to the front desk, because they might be unfamiliar with that concept. The chart says they have Oxygen service , so I ask to refill my tank, but the lady at the FBO desk has no idea what I’m talking about or how to do it. Eventually figure out only the on-field Mechanic does it, and it’s the weekend so nobody is around to refill my o2 tank (I had enough o2 to complete the trip, but was getting low).
They direct me to go to the Pilots room, everyone there is dressed like a corporate pilot with dress-shirt and chevrons on epaulets. After a few minutes of flight planning in my iPad, I go back to the desk and pay for fuel.

Going out to my plane i startup and taxi out. I’m in a line of ~ 4 other aircraft. Corporate jets, private jets, and a I’m directly behind a Vision Jet. It takes us about 20 minutes of waiting on the taxiway before i get to the runway for takeoff.

I had planned a flight route northwest from PSP with a Victor airway 386. According to the MOCA shown should be okay at 10k so I filed for 10k Ft. The controller tells me my filed altitude is wrong and I must go to 12k Ft before he’ll let me go northwest (out of the valley).
I reply “there’s no way I can get the climb performance to get to 12k that soon”, he says he’ll have to reroute me, we eventually compromise at a block clearance that allows me to fly at 11K ft as I cross the mountains at YUCCA.
After SOGGI they give me an amended clearance that lets me cut-the-corner near Edward’s (EDW) which was nice to see.

I had good visibility but still confused why the v386 MOCA shown was low enough (9400) that my 10k filed altitude should be fine, but hey I can’t argue with the controller on-frequency, so whatever.

I learned alot on that trip.

Your PSP experience reminded me of my stay at the Signature FBO in Scottsdale. There wasn't another piston engine plane in sight, just jets on the ramp.
But it made for a good photo op for the plane next to phenoms, hawkers, gulfstreams and the like!

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

Sadly this trip was cancelled on account of some changing plans with the friend I was headed to meet. I flew back yesterday and got back home last night. I will be keeping all the routing recommendations here as I attempt to make the journey next month instead...

Luckily I got some training in for high density altitude, though that adventure was a bit of a let down. We did practice at 9500' DA fields, which is the highest I'd done before. It was good to have someone in the right seat who has done this more than once, but I didn't really get anything new from the training (net takeaways could have been summed up in a 2 minute convo instead of a 3h lesson). The rest of the time seemed to be emphasizing silly nuance procedures that their 141 school is a stickler on. It didn't take long for me to just wanna get out of the plane

 

[kaiser]

Sadly this trip was cancelled on account of some changing plans with the friend I was headed to meet. I flew back yesterday and got back home last night. I will be keeping all the routing recommendations here as I attempt to make the journey next month instead...

Luckily I got some training in for high density altitude, though that adventure was a bit of a let down. We did practice at 9500' DA fields, which is the highest I'd done before. It was good to have someone in the right seat who has done this more than once, but I didn't really get anything new from the training (net takeaways could have been summed up in a 2 minute convo instead of a 3h lesson). The rest of the time seemed to be emphasizing silly nuance procedures that their 141 school is a stickler on. It didn't take long for me to just wanna get out of the plane

I’d say just taking off at high DA is worth it. It helps tie the words with the skillz

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

I’d say just taking off at high DA is worth it. It helps tie the words with the skillz

Yeah, I have no regrets about doing the training. It was good to have someone supervise and make sure I do it right . Cause you never know what you don't know! I look forward to going back out there very soon and completing the voyage.

 

[kaiser]

Yeah, I have no regrets about doing the training. It was good to have someone supervise and make sure I do it right . Cause you never know what you don't know! I look forward to going back out there very soon and completing the voyage.

Let me know when you want to venture that way. I kind of want to try for October. I have some buddies that live in Colorado I need to see.

 

[mandm]

Yeah, I have no regrets about doing the training. It was good to have someone supervise and make sure I do it right . Cause you never know what you don't know! I look forward to going back out there very soon and completing the voyage.

Did you notice much of a difference flying at higher DA? I went up at least a few times, different places altogether and different instructors. There isn’t a whole lot to teach, in fact it is probably better taught on the ground or via a YouTube video vs actual flying, also how to plan your route (which everyone skipped, except I did go flying in Alaska and learned a ton from a fellow pilot). The worrisome parts are more how to save yourself if you get caught in a bad situation which isn’t really taught in practice either.

It is nice to have someone in the right seat, but also I’m not sure that there is any formal practice on training instructors on how to teach mountain flying (there might be a few tidbits that are quickly talked about but I definitely didn’t feel like any of the instructors were experts), little was learned (I’m no expert either). One of the instructors I took a mountain flying class with later gone west in a plane crash while teaching another student. I don’t doubt the instructors skills at all, one of the nicest person I’ve met and extremely smart / intelligent, I would have flown again with this person especially if in the area, but stuff can happen to anyone.

 

[mandm]

Let me know when you want to venture that way. I kind of want to try for October. I have some buddies that live in Colorado I need to see.

+1

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

The primary reason I signed up for this training is that I wanted help to ensure I'm getting the best performance for takeoff and initial climb out at these elevations. That was really the #1 thing I wanted to be confident in and it's important enough that I felt it justified spending some $ with a CFI. I thought it might be more complicated than it was so I set aside a few hours to learn it thoroughly and get some practice so the knowledge sticks, but in reality it could have been done in 15 minutes. Not much to it that I didn't know already. But still, I have no regrets about seeking training. I saw some scenic Wyoming countryside and experienced the highest field DAs yet.

I also learned that I was trying to optimize the mixture too frequently on climb-out, so it was good getting that feedback to not obsessively adjust it.

There isn’t a whole lot to teach, in fact it is probably better taught on the ground or via a YouTube video vs actual flying, also how to plan your route (which everyone skipped, except I did go flying in Alaska and learned a ton from a fellow pilot).

Re: YouTube video training (or podcasts). I know a lot of people use it but that's one channel of information that I don't trust for anything involving aircraft operation. To me that stuff is only for entertainment value. There's far too many people making these videos as a hobby (or worse: to monetize clicks) who aren't qualified to offer an opinion or make instructional videos. It's difficult to know if the person on the video is a 50h freshly minted PPL or a 10000h ATP with every rating under the sun -- yet all of them will speak with the same authority. Since we're talking about potentially operating in unforgiving environments with few second chances -- I wanna be sure the person teaching me has the experience they claim to have!

EDIT: Forgot to comment on the second part of your thing: how to plan your route.
Yeah, the route planning is something I struggled with (hence my initial post here!). The CFI wasn't a ton of help for that because he admitted he never leaves the airport area. He wasn't even familiar with the airport we flew to less than 50 miles away (and they only have a couple airports within that range lol)... So while he was able to offer help on high DA, route planning was going to be all me (and the PoA brain trust for ideas/inspiration).

 

[ChopAndDrop]

I recently took-off from Roswell (KROW). Morning time, but we were close to max-gross for takeoff weight. Density Altitude about 5,500ft.
Controller gave us the 10,000ft runway, I asked for the 13,000 foot runway instead. (Engine is 200hp naturally aspirated)

We started our takeoff roll, takes a while to get to rotation speed. Rotate as the “6” marker goes by, in ground effect until the “4” marker goes by and we are climbing away. That means we took 7k ft to rotate, and approx 9k ft to clear a 50ft obstacle.

Density Altitude is no joke, don’t do what I did.
I was only willing to do it because I knew we had 13k ft runway and there is no terrain nearby (it’s mostly flat around Roswell).

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

I recently took-off from Roswell (KROW). Morning time, but we were close to max-gross for takeoff weight. Density Altitude about 5,500ft.
Controller gave us the 10,000ft runway, I asked for the 13,000 foot runway instead. (Engine is 200hp naturally aspirated)

We started our takeoff roll, takes a while to get to rotation speed. Rotate as the “6” marker goes by, in ground effect until the “4” marker goes by and we are climbing away. That means we took 7k ft to rotate, and approx 9k ft to clear a 50ft obstacle.

Density Altitude is no joke, don’t do what I did.
I was only willing to do it because I knew we had 13k ft runway and there is no terrain nearby (it’s mostly flat around Roswell).

Ate up a lot of runway! It's also the climb rate you're not expecting if you fly at sea level. It's one thing to see it in the performance charts in the POH. It's quite another to experience an anemic climb IRL as the PIC and fully respect that the power just isn't there at higher DAs.

Curious, what kind of aircraft? How did you lean on the ground?

Edit: I've also visited Roswell but DA wasn't the problem that day, it was winds! (And I got the 13k rwy coming from KAMA which also has a 13k).

 

[murphey]

Sadly this trip was cancelled on account of some changing plans with the friend I was headed to meet. I flew back yesterday and got back home last night. I will be keeping all the routing recommendations here as I attempt to make the journey next month instead...

Luckily I got some training in for high density altitude, though that adventure was a bit of a let down. We did practice at 9500' DA fields, which is the highest I'd done before. It was good to have someone in the right seat who has done this more than once, but I didn't really get anything new from the training (net takeaways could have been summed up in a 2 minute convo instead of a 3h lesson). The rest of the time seemed to be emphasizing silly nuance procedures that their 141 school is a stickler on. It didn't take long for me to just wanna get out of the plane

The mistake was using the 141 school. The NM and Colorado Pilot Assocs high altitude flights go to 4-6 airports so you get a taste of the different problems. For example, Glenwood Springs is in a valley and it's easy to miss seeing other aircraft in the pattern because it's a one-way airport most of the time. Leadville - big, wide valley but....there's a sign going each direction that basically says "if you don't have takeoff speed at this point, STOP!" Taking off to the south, the end of the runway isn't that far from the edge of the cliff. Granby has noise abatement issues. And, of course, possible issues with winds at all of them.

For future reference to all - the Colorado Pilots Assoc website has a list of recommended experience mountain CFIs. No silly 141 requirements. Just practical flight training for the mountains. Candidly, the most important instruction they give is how to decide when to fly, when to drive, and when to stay home.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

The mistake was using the 141 school. The NM and Colorado Pilot Assocs high altitude flights go to 4-6 airports so you get a taste of the different problems. For example, Glenwood Springs is in a valley and it's easy to miss seeing other aircraft in the pattern because it's a one-way airport most of the time. Leadville - big, wide valley but....there's a sign going each direction that basically says "if you don't have takeoff speed at this point, STOP!" Taking off to the south, the end of the runway isn't that far from the edge of the cliff. Granby has noise abatement issues. And, of course, possible issues with winds at all of them.

For future reference to all - the Colorado Pilots Assoc website has a list of recommended experience mountain CFIs. No silly 141 requirements. Just practical flight training for the mountains. Candidly, the most important instruction they give is how to decide when to fly, when to drive, and when to stay home.

Admittedly what you describe is exactly what I was looking for. Should have used Colorado Pilots Association to find something.

Instead I spent a lot of time hearing about their weird pet peeves at the school, with virtually none of them having practical flying value.

 

[rockwoodrv9a]

When I flew from Idaho to Michigan our route was north of SLC over Bear Lake. It was reasonably low and not too bad of a flight. From Cheyenne you would go to Laramie (LAR) then Rawlins (RWL) then Bear Lake (1U7)

I think it is a little lower than I-80 but will add a little time. Have fun! I will be heading almost the same way to Idaho early spring.

 

[Katamarino]

If you happen to need a fuel stop in Nebraska on the way home, grab a crew car, run into town, and go to Runza. Best fast food I've ever had, and only exists in Nebraska for some reason.

I ate at Runza in Omaha. It's one of the worst thing's I've ever eaten. It was nearly ten years ago and my friend and I still joke about the horror.