Chicago area TFR's or Prohibited area if Obama is elected?

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rheise

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I don't mean to be jumping the gun here, but was wondering if there has been any discussion on what possible airspace restrictions could be in place should Obama win the election.

I see that there is a TFR around Grand Rapids, MI tomorrow for President Bush's visit that has a 30-nm restricted zone and a 13-nm no-fly zone.

I assume that his Crawford, TX rance has the same restrictions when he in there, but otherwise is a prohibited area with a 3-nm radius from the surface to 5000 ft.

If they do the same around Obama's Kenwood home, which is 8-nm to the East of Midway airport very close to the lakefront, it will certainly put a crimp in the VFR corridor along the lakefront trying stay under Midway's class C and O'Hare's class B.

If they have a no-fly zone around there up to 18,000 ft., it will certainly close down anything along the lakefront, including the sightseeing flights of the Chicago skyline 5 miles to the North.

A 30-nm restricted zone would include Clow, Lewis and Naper Aero to the SW, among others I am sure, Chicago Executive to the North and come close to DuPage.

I just hope that they can come up with a pilot-friendly solution.
 
I hope so too.

There may be another solution. Given where the Obama's family home is now they will not be able to secure it without a major inconvenience to the entire neighborhood. Obama may sell it or never use it during his term should he be elected. I am pretty sure he still has family in Hawaii maybe he will buy property there.
 
They'll have to modify that thing eventually. Not every politician lives in a ranch in the middle of nowhere. The policy was a poorly thought-out knee-jerk reaction, and hopefully will die a quiet death with no one much noticing but us.
 
smigaldi said:
I hope so too.

I am pretty sure he still has family in Hawaii maybe he will buy property there.
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I hope he takes Biden with him if he wins becuase I can't handle a TFR over Wilmington DE.

When the new POTUS and VPOTUS take office will they lift the TFRs over Crawford Tx and over the easternshor of MD where Cheney has his place?
 
Based on previous history, I'd hope the small crawford TFR would remain and be small, and the Cheney TFR should go away.
 
AdamZ said:
I hope he takes Biden with him if he wins becuase I can't handle a TFR over Wilmington DE.

When the new POTUS and VPOTUS take office will they lift the TFRs over Crawford Tx and over the easternshor of MD where Cheney has his place?
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From what I understand, P-49 will remain over Crawford for ten years. I can live with that. It's the expansion of two, thirty-mile TFRs just when he decides to come and go that's the real pain.
 
Inside dope says the little bitty Cheney TFR (1nm/1500 AGL) will stay for as long as he lives, but as anyone who flies around the Eastern Shore knows, it's a problem only for nosy newsies. Expect Dubya's Crawford TFR to shrink to something smaller when he's out of office, but not to disappear (how big is GHWB's P-area in Kennebunkport when Dubya isn't visiting?). Biden's house in DE should get no more than Cheney's unless there's some unforeseeable specific threat, and if they didn't threaten Cheney that much, they're hardly likely to threaten Biden that much.

As for Obama (if elected), yes, I expect they'll put something up over his home in Illinois whenever he's there, and yes, I expect it to be the standard 10/30/18000 Presidential TFR. Note that it's only the 10nm ring which is an effective GA no-fly zone -- you can still go in and out of airports in the 30nm ring if you file, talk, and squawk, although you won't be doing T&G's in their pattern. However, I'll bet they figure a way to cut a notch in it to allow flights in and out of MDW as long as they don't come straight in from the east -- like nothing in the arc between the 22 pair approach course and the 31 set approach course other than 22 CTL 31 or 31 CTL 22. And if I understand the location of his house correctly, there's no other airport in that 10nm ring. As for flying up and down the shoreline, I expect that will stop when he's in the Kenwood house.

Of course, if he sells that place and buys somewhere else, it's a whole 'nother story.
 
Ron Levy said:
...As for Obama (if elected), yes, I expect they'll put something up over his home in Illinois whenever he's there, and yes, I expect it to be the standard 10/30/18000 Presidential TFR. Note that it's only the 10nm ring which is an effective GA no-fly zone -- you can still go in and out of airports in the 30nm ring if you file, talk, and squawk, although you won't be doing T&G's in their pattern. However, I'll bet they figure a way to cut a notch in it to allow flights in and out of MDW as long as they don't come straight in from the east -- like nothing in the arc between the 22 pair approach course and the 31 set approach course other than 22 CTL 31 or 31 CTL 22. And if I understand the location of his house correctly, there's no other airport in that 10nm ring. As for flying up and down the shoreline, I expect that will stop when he's in the Kenwood house.

Of course, if he sells that place and buys somewhere else, it's a whole 'nother story.
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Well, I've never been so happy that my momma raised me to be a Northsider.

Not to mention that he whole TFR thing is boooogus and maybe President Obama will stop it, not that we've seen any sign from anyone of countering the security theater nonsense.
 
mikea said:
Not to mention that he whole TFR thing is boooogus and maybe President Obama will stop it, not that we've seen any sign from anyone of countering the security theater nonsense.
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Since November 22, 1963, the USSS has not to my knowledge allowed the President to overrule them on Presidential security issues. If anyone doubts that the USSS, not politics, is driving that Presidential TFR bus, you need a reality check with the Secret Service. The USSS isn't willing to accept the slightest chance of anything foreseeable happening to the President, and each time something unforeseen does happen (e.g., Kennedy, Ford, Reagan, and 9/11, and probably lots of attempts nipped in the bud we've probably never heard about), they change their procedures so it won't happen a second time.

Look at it from their perspective -- their report card is a one-item pass/fail document: "Did the President get hurt or killed during your watch -- Yes or No?" Budget, stepped-on toes, inconvenience to the public -- not in the mix. You work to a standard like that, you get pretty narrow-minded about how things will be done.
 
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On the other hand, the pendulum swings both ways. Obama is savy, and if a major American city gets all tied up every time he comes to town, he might have a thing or two to say about it. When this nonsense got put into place they were dealing with a ranch in the middle of nowhere. Might be harder in the largest midwestern city, and might prompt a review of the policy. Might not.
 
steingar said:
On the other hand, the pendulum swings both ways. Obama is savy, and if a major American city gets all tied up every time he comes to town, he might have a thing or two to say about it. When this nonsense got put into place they were dealing with a ranch in the middle of nowhere. Might be harder in the largest midwestern city, and might prompt a review of the policy. Might not.
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The few times Bush has visited Chicago his giant TFR came with him. No one could care less. O'Hare and midway were allowed to continue their flights even into the 10 mile ring. The only guys inconvenienced where the non-major airline types i.e. biz jets and us.
 
steingar said:
On the other hand, the pendulum swings both ways. Obama is savy, and if a major American city gets all tied up every time he comes to town, he might have a thing or two to say about it. When this nonsense got put into place they were dealing with a ranch in the middle of nowhere. Might be harder in the largest midwestern city, and might prompt a review of the policy. Might not.
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As Ron says, the Secret Service holds all the cards, and the new Prez will not be in a position to overrule them.

Bob Gardner
 
If they have a TFR over Wilminton DE for Biden it will take up the whole dang state.:mad::mad:
 
smigaldi said:
The few times Bush has visited Chicago his giant TFR came with him. No one could care less. O'Hare and midway were allowed to continue their flights even into the 10 mile ring. The only guys inconvenienced where the non-major airline types i.e. biz jets and us.
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Not exactly true. I had the misfortune to be flying commercial MSN-ORD-somewhere on the same day that Bush flew into Chicago for something. They shut down ORD for about 2 hours so that he could land and go downtown. Messed up every flight for several hours -- which someone should have been able to plan for, but it seemed like they did not.

--david
 
dparter said:
Not exactly true. I had the misfortune to be flying commercial MSN-ORD-somewhere on the same day that Bush flew into Chicago for something. They shut down ORD for about 2 hours so that he could land and go downtown. Messed up every flight for several hours -- which someone should have been able to plan for, but it seemed like they did not.
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You know how U.S. Presidents visited Chicago? They took Marine One from O'Hare to - wait for it - Meigs Field. During the Clinton administration when Bill Daley was Sec. Commerce, they actually had Clinton start using a motorcade instead of using the "unneeded" downtown airport. 27 miles to downtown. On a closed Kennedy Expressway. At rush hour. :mad:

One thing we got going for Obama, is he's not beholden at all to Daley. They only gave polite nods to each other. Daley wants to be on Obama's coattails.
 
A TFR in the ANC area would effect all flights to and from Asia.

What I'd like to see is the plan to protect the first dude while he is snow sleding. -40-degrees at 110 mph speeds. in very remote areas.
 
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dparter said:
Not exactly true. I had the misfortune to be flying commercial MSN-ORD-somewhere on the same day that Bush flew into Chicago for something. They shut down ORD for about 2 hours so that he could land and go downtown. Messed up every flight for several hours -- which someone should have been able to plan for, but it seemed like they did not.

--david
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Are you sure about that? I have seen then put on ground hold of traffic while AF1 taxis after landing but soon enough air traffic is moving again. A small delay (<30 minutes) at ORD can cause a 2 hour back up though. But even when the prez is parking over at the old military ramp air traffic is moving into and out of ORD.
 
mikea said:
You know how U.S. Presidents visited Chicago? They took Marine One from O'Hare to - wait for it - Meigs Field. During the Clinton administration when Bill Daley was Sec. Commerce, they actually had Clinton start using a motorcade instead of using the "unneeded" downtown airport. 27 miles to downtown. On a closed Kennedy Expressway. At rush hour. :mad:

One thing we got going for Obama, is he's not beholden at all to Daley. They only gave polite nods to each other. Daley wants to be on Obama's coattails.
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I have been there waiting for the road block to clear.
 
smigaldi said:
Are you sure about that? I have seen then put on ground hold of traffic while AF1 taxis after landing but soon enough air traffic is moving again. A small delay (<30 minutes) at ORD can cause a 2 hour back up though. But even when the prez is parking over at the old military ramp air traffic is moving into and out of ORD.
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FWIW, a friend of the family who worked ORD TWR for 20 years says a POTUS delay is usually around 30 minutes....After that they airlines are on the phone like crazy.
 
purdue1014 said:
FWIW, a friend of the family who worked ORD TWR for 20 years says a POTUS delay is usually around 30 minutes....After that they airlines are on the phone like crazy.
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Hmmm 20 years ago ya say. I was in the USAFR at KORD at that time and was helping to provide security when POTUS came. Small world.
 
smigaldi said:
Hmmm 20 years ago ya say. I was in the USAFR at KORD at that time and was helping to provide security when POTUS came. Small world.
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Err, he worked for 20ish years in the tower. He retired a few years ago, but still, the world can indeed be small sometimes:)
 
smigaldi said:
Are you sure about that? I have seen then put on ground hold of traffic while AF1 taxis after landing but soon enough air traffic is moving again. A small delay (<30 minutes) at ORD can cause a 2 hour back up though. But even when the prez is parking over at the old military ramp air traffic is moving into and out of ORD.
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It's true, though it really all depends upon how fast they get on and off the plane. We landed in Boston one day on 4R. Made the usual taxi route, H, F, left on Bravo. We park in the ally off K and E, across from E2 (next to where it says "Elev 16"). As we rolled south on Bravo, they had us step over to Alpha on Charlie, behind a line up of about six other planes. Where we sat. And sat. Finally, after about 20 minutes of not moving, the plane in front of us asked what the hold up was. Turns out, just across K and E from us, on the Firehouse parking pad (the big white area to the East of the Main Fire Station) was an Air Force C-32, commonly used as Airforce2.

After we had sat for almost 35 minutes, we were number two in line behind a US Airways Airbus...all the outbound traffic ahead of us had been rerouted around taxiways to the north. Neither us or the Airways Bus were allowed into the ally, and there were almost a dozen planes in the ally who weren't allowed out. 50 minutes after we landed, a couple black limos, a few black suburbans, and probably half of the Mass State Police cars pulled out from behind the C-32 and sped around the access road to the perimeter gate. About a minute later "Port 32" called the ground controller and told him that "Kilo, Echo, and Juliet are yours again." It took them almost 20 minutes to clear out the ally, giving us a total taxi time of 1.3hrs at an airport that usually takes less than 5 minutes to get anywhere.

After our layover in BOS, of course, the motorcade was back (though they didn't tell us until we were boarded and called for push clearance. We weren't allowed to leave the ally until the plane had taken off. They called ground 5 mins prior to taxi and that was it...until they were airborne, no one landed, no one took off.

When the motorcade was present they were still departing from 33L, even though the 4s were strongly favored, but anyone that had to taxi near the firehouse was stuck until the motorcade left. It's not the end of the world when the big wigs are in town, but it definitely messes stuff up! I don't know the layout of ORD, but if it's anything like the NY area airports, just the delay while they're taxiing is enough to screw things up for hours.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0810/00058AD.PDF
 
smigaldi said:
Hmmm 20 years ago ya say. I was in the USAFR at KORD at that time and was helping to provide security when POTUS came. Small world.
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PS---When the POTUS came to town, he was the FAA liaison to the USSS. You ever come across those guys?
 
purdue1014 said:
PS---When the POTUS came to town, he was the FAA liaison to the USSS. You ever come across those guys?
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The SS sure did, the FAA guys not so much. My last year and half in the reserve was spent with a an AF Security Police unit. We did a lot of VIP protection details on the airport property. At that time the ramp by what is now Signature Aviation to Higgins road was the Air Force base. All VIPs parked there as it was secured. There was also a US Marshall dormintory there where guest of the Marshall service were put into protective custody. I met a few interesting characters there as well.
 
smigaldi said:
The SS sure did, the FAA guys not so much. My last year and half in the reserve was spent with a an AF Security Police unit. We did a lot of VIP protection details on the airport property. At that time the ramp by what is now Signature Aviation to Higgins road was the Air Force base. All VIPs parked there as it was secured. There was also a US Marshall dormintory there where guest of the Marshall service were put into protective custody. I met a few interesting characters there as well.
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I bet. Essentially all he did was ride around with the SS, and help coordinate any AV thing they needed...

PS--Where did you get your avatar?
 
TMetzinger said:
Based on previous history, I'd hope the small crawford TFR would remain and be small, and the Cheney TFR should go away.
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Remember that there is a new law that requires protection of former VPs for six months, which may be extended at the discretion of the Homeland Security Czar. Meaning that it can be lifetime, especially if we get another Homeland Security Czar like Chertoff.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/6025989.html
 
I have installed my own TFR (actually its permanent) around Chicago since Daley bulldozed Meigs. That city won't see a dime of my money ever again.
 
steingar said:
+1 to that
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Same here. Haven't been back to Chicago, and won't, until Daley is either dead, out of office -- or both.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm growing weary of the way our President is being treated like an emperor. Closing down entire cities, shutting down airspace over busy airports, and just being cut off from their own people has rendered our leaders into little Napoleans, out of touch with reality. And you know what? They're just NOT that important that we, the People, should be so inconvenienced -- not to mention the absurd sums of money we spend on this nonsense.

For example, when we flooded this past summer, President Bush came to town to "check things out". I stopped counting at $18 million just spent at the Iowa City Airport on helicopter travel and security -- and none of us were allowed to even SEE him, let alone get near him. To me, this is ridiculous. We'd have been much better off if he had just mailed us the $18 million. (And this isn't even counting Air Force One in Cedar Rapids, all the advance C-17s full of limos, etc.)

Contrast this with our recent visit to Germany. We were walking around Munich during Oktoberfest, stumbled upon the Marienplatz (home of the world-famous Glockenspiel), and wandered into a political rally that featured Chancellor Angela Merkel as speaker. She walked up on stage right past us, and spoke extemporaneously for half an hour.

Here we were, foreigners, standing fifty feet away from the most powerful woman in Germany. I'm sure there was some security there, but nothing as overblown as what we go through here in the states. And she was allowed to be a real person.

Bottom line: These people are elected, not annointed, and I, for one, am getting sick of the way we treat them like royalty. Our leaders need to be more approachable, and if they're so afraid of the people that they need to hide behind the SS, perhaps they are the wrong person for the job.

I don't hold out much hope, but maybe a President McCain or Obama can bring a little common sense back into this equation.
 
Jay Honeck said:
...
I don't hold out much hope, but maybe a President McCain or Obama can bring a little common sense back into this equation.
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Not likely since security theater isn't a issue in the election.

I have the feeling that the pols think that TSA/DHS security theater is another third rail, as in, "So you ARE wit' the terrists!!!" Sad.
 
Jay. The problem is politicians forget that they work for us. Many of them are such egotistical, pompass, jerks.
 
Anthony said:
Jay. The problem is politicians forget that they work for us. Many of them are such egotistical, pompass, jerks.
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Yep, and because of this isolation and sense of entitlement our "civil servants" have evolved into a "ruling class." This (along with a whole slew of other things) is slowly turning our democracy into an oligarchy.
 
Germany doesn't have the level of private gun ownership we do, though.

That said the man isn't important, the office is. I hate to be so cold-blooded, but if someone put a cap in W's skull the world would go on. Its happened before and if it happens again it will be a tragedy, but not the end of the world.
 
smigaldi said:
:D:D:D:D

I actually forgot but it was several months ago. It may have been in email from a friend.
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It just gave my wife a chuckle. A full size copy to print out would be fun in the teacher's lounge where she teaches. :D
 
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