Chicago area TFR's or Prohibited area if Obama is elected?

TMetzinger said:
Well, he CAN overrule them if he wants to badly enough, but no president has so far.
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Theoretically, yes, but then the head of the detail puts his objections in writing. Then if anything happens, the president looks like an idiot, but if nothing happens, nobody every hears about it ("secret" very much part of United States Secret Service). And people don't get to be president by making no-win bets like that.
 
Reminder -- this is Flight Following, not Spin Zone. If you want to discuss politics and gun control (other techniques like "a steady hand and a good eye"), take it there.
 
steingar said:
Yeah, don't be such a grump.
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Was that really necessary? :dunno:

Ron is simply pointing out that we need to keep this "safe" if it's outside the spin zone box, and he's right. I know you are a Spin Zone participant, please remember when you're outside it and keep things friendly, for the sake of everyone here. :yes:
 
My kids lived in Waco until last year, then moved to Austin. I will not be sorry when somebody else gets a turn at dealing with this BS.

KennyFlys said:
From what I understand, P-49 will remain over Crawford for ten years. I can live with that. It's the expansion of two, thirty-mile TFRs just when he decides to come and go that's the real pain.
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wabower said:
My kids lived in Waco until last year, then moved to Austin. I will not be sorry when somebody else gets a turn at dealing with this BS.
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I did three hours of actual with a primary student today. Before returning, I called Flight Service and ended up with someone from Kankakee, Illinois. When the subject of TFRs came up, I reminded her of how lucky they might get to share the blessings we've enjoyed. She laughed.

Spike... Cooper's rocks! :D
 
Well, it has been announced all over the Texas news stations that when W drops out of office, he and the first lady will be moving to the Dallas area. Laura Bush has a dream of building a house there, and not living on the Crawford Ranch.

Maybe that will result in a lifting of the P-49 TFR? But then, how will that screw up the DFW airspace?

At the risk of insulting those POA members who live and fly in the Chicago area, maybe having a POTUS TFR over the city would make Daly understand how much the city CAN lose by alienating GA pilots.
 
colomtnflyer said:
...
At the risk of insulting those POA members who live and fly in the Chicago area, maybe having a POTUS TFR over the city would make Daly understand how much the city CAN lose by alienating GA pilots.
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Not a chance. Daley will grin ear to ear on finally getting his airspace grab.

Guess whose condo is 2 miles due south of Meigs?
 
colomtnflyer said:
At the risk of insulting those POA members who live and fly in the Chicago area, maybe having a POTUS TFR over the city would make Daly understand how much the city CAN lose by alienating GA pilots.
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We basically have a tFR over the city now. We call the the Chicago Class Bravo. The city proper is almsot all in parts where the airspace comes to the ground and you will nto get cleared into the bravo. When we are flying msotly over the suburbs.

Daley could care less about GS, he already does nto have much if any business from it.
 
gprellwitz said:
Phil Rogers, who flies out of my airport, did a story on this a couple of weeks ago:
http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Proposed-Security-Plans-Could-Ground-Chicago-Flights.html Most of the comments that I glanced at were pro-aviation! This article was also mentioned on AOPA Online: http://www.aopa.org/flightplanning/articles/2008/081201tfrs.html
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Isn't that Clow in the picture? :smile:

I didn't know Phil Rogers was a pilot. I talked to him at one of the AOPA town meetings but I thought he was covering it. There's also weathermen Brant Miller and Jerry Taft.
 
I hope AOPA is meeting with the president-elect's staff and discussing this with them.

But then maybe I am wishing too much form the roll over and get their tummy rubbed by the SS people at AOPA.
 
smigaldi said:
I hope AOPA is meeting with the president-elect's staff and discussing this with them.

But then maybe I am wishing too much form the roll over and get their tummy rubbed by the SS people at AOPA.
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I'm hoping the President-elect's office is not making time to meet with any interest group.
 
Today was moving day for the president-elect so our small lake front TFR is gone.

But what will happen after 20 Jan is still anyone's guess. But in this news report about Obama's move there are some possible hints.

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/01/obama-arrives-in-dc.html

First
"I gotta say I choked up a little bit leaving my house today," he told reporters aboard a military aircraft that transported him to Washington.




Obama explained that a friend of his daughter, Malia, had dropped of an album of the two of them together.

"They had been friends since pre-school and I just looked through the pages and the house was empty and it was a little tough," he said. "It got m
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That sure sounds like they are not planning on being back anytime soon. The articel also mentions that there is no official word on if they will even be back before th e20th but there is this clue
emphasis mine
But the president-elect's departure from Chicago's Midway Airport for a flight to Andrews Air Force Base brought with it some emotion, as he left behind an empty home
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If he emptied the home it sure sounds like he is leaving Chicago and not planning on returning to that location.

But that just does nto jive with this statement that was made
The Obamas are keeping their Kenwood neighborhood home and the president-elect told the Tribune last month that he hopes to return to Chicago every six or eight weeks.
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We can only keep our fingers crossed that he instead opts to go to Hawaii for his time away form the office. But if he does come back to Chicago let us hope for reasonable flight restriction. If that is not possible I sure hope he does take the more than 500 days of vacation that his predecessor took in Texas! That is almost two years of useless TFRs if he were to do it.

I am hoping that this sight at KMDW is not one we see often!

Obama-web.jpg
 
smigaldi said:
...That sure sounds like they are not planning on being back anytime soon. The articel also mentions that there is no official word on if they will even be back before th e20th but there is this clue
emphasis mine
If he emptied the home it sure sounds like he is leaving Chicago and not planning on returning to that location.

But that just does nto jive with this statement that was made
We can only keep our fingers crossed that he instead opts to go to Hawaii for his time away form the office. But if he does come back to Chicago let us hope for reasonable flight restriction. If that is not possible I sure hope he does take the more than 500 days of vacation that his predecessor took in Texas! That is almost two years of useless TFRs if he were to do it.

I am hoping that this sight at KMDW is not one we see often!
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Agree. Fingers crossed. GW sazw the ranch as get away and relax place, which is easy to understand.

Although Chicago gets plenty of tourism and it surely will only increase thanks to being the President's home town, it's not like people buy vacation brochures that tout the great resorts in Hyde Park. :D

Just as with Crawford, TX, I'll bet we still have a permanent 7x24 "temporary" 3nm(?) restricted area over the house.
 
Well, I just got back from a meeting with the Illinois Dept of Aviation, FAA, and TSA where they said that, while there's nothing finalized yet, there is talk about a CHICAGO ADIZ. Their term, not mine. There would be a 10NM inner ring with no GA flights:nono:. They're also apparently considering some sort of a pilot vetting process similar to the DC-3 airports to allow some GA folks to fly, which would be good, since Midway is within that 10NM ring. They're also supposedly evaluating Gary/Chicago as a potential staging airport instead of O'Hare. Also, they said that the rumors of him mothballing his Chicago (Hyde Park) home were untrue. Again, nothing's finalized yet, but I don't like what I'm hearing so far!:mad3:
 
gprellwitz said:
Well, I just got back from a meeting with the Illinois Dept of Aviation, FAA, and TSA where they said that, while there's nothing finalized yet, there is talk about a CHICAGO ADIZ. Their term, not mine. There would be a 10NM inner ring with no GA flights:nono:. They're also apparently considering some sort of a pilot vetting process similar to the DC-3 airports to allow some GA folks to fly, which would be good, since Midway is within that 10NM ring. They're also supposedly evaluating Gary/Chicago as a potential staging airport instead of O'Hare. Also, they said that the rumors of him mothballing his Chicago (Hyde Park) home were untrue. Again, nothing's finalized yet, but I don't like what I'm hearing so far!:mad3:
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There's talk. Crawford wasn't an ADIZ. It was a variable P area.

Great. Daley gets his Chicago airspace grab.
 
Depending on the time of day, Obama would then most likely be flown from O'Hare by helicopter to somewhere near his South Side home to avoid the traffic-snarling motorcade that would be needed otherwise.

A source familiar with the situation said a search is under way for a South Side helipad that could routinely be used by the Obama family for their Chicago commutes. One site under consideration is operated by the Chicago Fire Department along the lakefront at 95th Street, less than 8 miles from Obama's home.

The lightly used Gary/Chicago airport, meanwhile, has a 7,000-foot runway and is 20 miles from Obama's home. While landing there would be a boost for Indiana transportation officials, it would be viewed as a snub to Chicago's airports.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-obama-returnjan28,0,7910490.story
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If only that airport on the lakefront very near his house was still there. Presidents used to fly into it until Duh Mare told them to stop using his unneeded airport.

If they seal off Gary we'll have no way east short of flying to DuPage and Kankakee first. That really sucks. :mad3:

We can always visit Meigs tower and terminal to remember the way it was: http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/chi-0127preservelistjan27,0,5039742.story
I wonder if the "Richard J. Daley 1960" plaque is still on the wall.
 
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Ugh. :(:(:(

Time to buy a house near KELSI so I can watch airplanes. :rolleyes:

Going East is really gonna suck now. As an example, say I want to go to KLOM for the Fly-B-Q.

Direct: 655.3nm (over water, I'd fly a twin if I went this way).
Lakeshore route: 687.9 nm - 32.6nm more than direct.
via KELSI EON (which keeps you *just* over 30nm from MDW - I forget where the exact location of Obama's house is): 731.5 nm - 43.6nm longer than the lakeshore route, 76.2nm longer than direct. :mad3:

It is longer to go north to Escanaba, MI and cross the lake via Beaver Island - But I did have to look.
 
Or yet another justification for the "new" GA rules that DHS has proposed - you know, the ones that make GA just like the airlines.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Ugh. :(:(:(

Time to buy a house near KELSI so I can watch airplanes. :rolleyes:

Going East is really gonna suck now. As an example, say I want to go to KLOM for the Fly-B-Q.

Direct: 655.3nm (over water, I'd fly a twin if I went this way).
Lakeshore route: 687.9 nm - 32.6nm more than direct.
via KELSI EON (which keeps you *just* over 30nm from MDW - I forget where the exact location of Obama's house is): 731.5 nm - 43.6nm longer than the lakeshore route, 76.2nm longer than direct. :mad3:

It is longer to go north to Escanaba, MI and cross the lake via Beaver Island - But I did have to look.
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Kent, how difficult is it to go over the class B? VFR might be doable more than IFR. I have gone right over it several times at FL180, but have never tried lower. Sounds like a trip of that length could be worth climbing up.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Kent, how difficult is it to go over the class B? VFR might be doable more than IFR. I have gone right over it several times at FL180, but have never tried lower. Sounds like a trip of that length could be worth climbing up.

Best,

Dave
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You of course can go VFR over the Bravo at 10,500 or higher as long as per usual you aren't talking to ATC.

BUT what is the top of the usual ADIZ or VIP TFR? Don't they go to 18,000 feet?
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Kent, how difficult is it to go over the class B? VFR might be doable more than IFR. I have gone right over it several times at FL180, but have never tried lower. Sounds like a trip of that length could be worth climbing up.

Best,

Dave
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IFR it's doable in your 58P but not likely and certainly not comfortably in a 182. VFR, the top's only 10,000 MSL so it's easily topped in good weather but you will be offered one or more opportunities to examine some big airplanes moving rather fast from an uncomfortably close range. And don't expect to get any flight following help from ATC, if you call them they will divert you well away from the Class B lateral boundaries before giving any help.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Kent, how difficult is it to go over the class B? VFR might be doable more than IFR. I have gone right over it several times at FL180, but have never tried lower. Sounds like a trip of that length could be worth climbing up.

Best,

Dave
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15,000 is the lowest I've heard of for getting over the top IFR, I think that might be the upper limit of approach's airspace.
 
mikea said:
You of course can go VFR over the Bravo at 10,500 or higher as long as per usual you aren't talking to ATC.

BUT what is the top of the usual ADIZ or VIP TFR? Don't they go to 18,000 feet?
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Yes Mike. When the Waco TFR was in effect when Busch was around, one could go outside the inner circle if talking to Gray Approach below FL180, but that wasn't over a Class B area.

Here at D/FW, I've not had a problem VFR with flight following just above the B unless it was very busy; then, they'd try to get out outside the 30 mile area. Bit, I don't have any trouble going IFR west right over D/FW at 4,000 feet. That's the route I normally get when headed west from Addison.

St. Louis once told me I had to be 160 or more to go over their airspace IFR. Maybe 150 if headed east.

Sorry to hear this. Just too many folks in that congested space at one time. There should be off periods where it isn't as busy. I went right into Houston Hobby direct but it was 0100 hours.

Best,

Dave

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Yes Mike. When the Waco TFR was in effect when Busch was around, one could go outside the inner circle if talking to Gray Approach below FL180, but that wasn't over a Class B area.

Here at D/FW, I've not had a problem VFR with flight following just above the B unless it was very busy; then, they'd try to get out outside the 30 mile area. Bit, I don't have any trouble going IFR west right over D/FW at 4,000 feet. That's the route I normally get when headed west from Addison.

St. Louis once told me I had to be 160 or more to go over their airspace IFR. Maybe 150 if headed east. ...
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:D Funny. I went over STL VFR at 9500 coming out of Gastons and talked to them for flight following. ATC just asked me what route I was taking (to the Forestal(?) VOR then to Springfield) and asked to be advised when I was taking the turn. If it was Chicago I doubt I get them to even answer me.

You trigger a thought, though. I wonder how the USSS and DHS et. al are doing with C90s attitude of never talking to us. THAT could trigger closed airpace because as we all know, ORD is the busiest and most complicated and challenging and impossible air space in the entire universe and nobody outside of the radar room seems to understand. I wonder if anybody will ask why there never was such a problem in talking to every plane in DC and Texas.
 
mikea said:
You of course can go VFR over the Bravo at 10,500 or higher as long as per usual you aren't talking to ATC.

BUT what is the top of the usual ADIZ or VIP TFR? Don't they go to 18,000 feet?
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Yes, the ADIZ and VIP TFRs go up to 17,999, above which you need to be on an IFR flight plan.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Kent, how difficult is it to go over the class B? VFR might be doable more than IFR. I have gone right over it several times at FL180, but have never tried lower. Sounds like a trip of that length could be worth climbing up.
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Hmm... Well, Lance has some good points:

lancefisher said:
IFR it's doable in your 58P but not likely and certainly not comfortably in a 182. VFR, the top's only 10,000 MSL so it's easily topped in good weather but you will be offered one or more opportunities to examine some big airplanes moving rather fast from an uncomfortably close range. And don't expect to get any flight following help from ATC, if you call them they will divert you well away from the Class B lateral boundaries before giving any help.
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From KMSN to FARMM (just inside the near side of the mode C ring on a direct route from KMSN to KGYY) is 65nm. For VFR, I can easily maintain 600fpm or better in a 105-mph cruise climb up to 14,000 with just myself and bags aboard. That's 400 feet per nm so to go eastbound at 11,500 I'd only need 26.5 miles, about half the distance available, to make the climb. However, the top of the Bravo is where all the big birds come out! So, without an active traffic system, probably not likely. Chicago doesn't like to talk to us little guys for flight following, and if they did answer they'd just give me vectors to keep me clear anyway.

IFR, I'd have to climb to at least 15,000 (though I think Tony said he was given KELSI at 15,000 once, so maybe that's not enough). I can maintain 500fpm up to 15,000 (again, alone with bags) so let's say 400fpnm up to 12,000 and 333fpnm the rest of the way - That's 53nm, so theoretically still possible, but again I think 15,000 might still be within the realm of C90 and that's pretty much an automatic trip to KELSI. 17 or 18 thousand might do the trick, but I can't climb fast enough to make those on a direct route anyway.

Besides, at 17,000 I can divert slightly north, cross the lake at Sheboygan and remain within gliding distance to shore for the entire crossing, and same for the subsequent crossing of Lake Erie. KMSN-SBM-MI71-LNN-KLOM, 681nm. KMSN-KGYY-KLOM 682nm. So, going that high I might as well cross the lake. :dunno:

Now you're starting to see why I've been wanting a twin for a long time. :yes:
 
mikea said:
You trigger a thought, though. I wonder how the USSS and DHS et. al are doing with C90s attitude of never talking to us. THAT could trigger closed airpace because as we all know, ORD is the busiest and most complicated and challenging and impossible air space in the entire universe and nobody outside of the radar room seems to understand. I wonder if anybody will ask why there never was such a problem in talking to every plane in DC and Texas.
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They won't care. In fact, they'll love it - Now, not only will they not have to talk to us, be we won't be cluttering up their radar screens as we go beneath the Bravo. :mad3:

IMHO, the Chicago Tracon folks need to be shipped out to Norcal for some airplane-diversity training. :yes:

And y'know, I don't remember hearing any stories about Atlanta TRACON acting like Chicago does, and I've heard quite a few stories about how GOOD New York is for dealing with GA, so I just don't buy the "we have too much traffic" argument. It'd do NATCA some good to get on C90's case about this - I'm normally very inclined to support ATC, I talk to Madison and Rockford TRACON's and Chicago Center very frequently, and they're professional and efficient - As are Norcal, Socal, Tampa, Houston, Dallas, Philadelphia, Cleveland, and Minneapolis TRACON's, I've flown in all of their B-spaces. But Chicago Approach alienates a LOT of GA pilots, NATCA needs all the friends they can get when it comes to putting pressure on Washington to pay and treat them better.
 
gprellwitz said:
Yes, the ADIZ and VIP TFRs go up to 17,999, above which you need to be on an IFR flight plan.
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Just because the ADIZ or TFR only goes up to 17,999 doesn't mean they'll allow you to overfly it. Look at it this way: If they want you to remain at least 10 nm away horizontally, why wouldn't they allow you to be 3 nm away vertically? There's no need for the TFR to extend into Class A airspace since they can keep you out using normal ATC rules.

Has anyone here been allowed to overfly the DC ADIZ or a presidential TFR in a non-airliner aircraft?
 
kkoran said:
Just because the ADIZ or TFR only goes up to 17,999 doesn't mean they'll allow you to overfly it. Look at it this way: If they want you to remain at least 10 nm away horizontally, why wouldn't they allow you to be 3 nm away vertically? There's no need for the TFR to extend into Class A airspace since they can keep you out using normal ATC rules.

Has anyone here been allowed to overfly the DC ADIZ or a presidential TFR in a non-airliner aircraft?
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Kent, that's pretty much in line with my thinking. What I was getting at is that you cannot do anything but go around the entire airspace. If VFR you can't top it during the TFR because you run into Class A. If IFR you're doing whatever ATC tells you to do and you have as much chance being vectored through it below 18,000 as above 18,000; in effect, zilch. If your departure or destination is within the 30NM but outside the 10NM ring, you might get an IFR clearance. It would depend on a lot of things beyond the control of the pilot, and you have no alternative.
 
mikea said:
I'm sure it's been done. In a corpjet. :mad3:
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Not.

In a corpjet SAT-TEB we were sent outside the 30 mile radius. At FL410.

As for Class Bs.... HOU/IAH will let you over at 16,000 and above. DFW/DAL would only let me do it S to N at FL180. CVG denied it unless you were talking to Center at FL180 (but now they're hurting to keep traffic count up... if it doesn't stay up, they get positions cut). CLE was 15000 and above. MEM was 16000 and above. PHX wanted me at FL180, and kept me outside the lateral area of the B at 16,000.
 
Yes, I've flown over several presidential TFRs at FL180. I'm not sure if I was in the inner ring. It was just a normal IFR flight for me. Several times over Waco when active. Once in Ohio. Wasn't even sure what was going on. Knew there was a TFR but Center didn't change my clearance and I flew right over; I asked and they just say maintain current route. I've not done that near the ADIZ; I've just never had a reason to fly over; usually landed in Norfolk coming from Dallas. Flights north from Norfolk were low and around, IFR. Tampa is really busy sometimes and I've had some trouble with them even when IFR. Around Waco, I've been cleared thouigh the TFR when IFR below FL180, but not through the inner 10 mile ring. I've flown over Atlanta several times going from Dallas to Greenville, SC. They seem to prefer me over the airport and won't let me down until past Athens which makes for a good rate of descent down into Greenville.

Best,

Dave
 
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