Chevy Volt

[timwinters]

Why would one buy a volt when for the same price you could get a vette???

Better resale, 30mpg hwy, 400+hp, near 1g skid pad, better engineered, and people won't have to ask if you still have your balls attached.

Many of us don't need excessive HP under the hood because we don't have excessive shortcomings under the fly.

The problem here is generational

FTFY

However, long distance travel and transport of goods will never work electrically.

Really? Do you have a crystal ball that no one else has? 20 years ago, when I bought my first computer...a gateway...I certainly didn't know that 20 years later my cell phone would have more capability and memory. What will the battery technology be in 10...20 years? Do you know with certainty?

The key to long distance travel may well be swapping battery packs in lieu of charging them. Can you honestly not envision a network of "battery swapping 'filling stations'" across the nation once electrics are common? Israel is already doing this...though I think their system is struggling because it was premature.

Of course, battery packs would have to be standardized and made modular for this to work.

 

[RJM62]

Many of us don't need excessive HP under the hood because we don't have excessive shortcomings under the fly.


FTFY


Really? Do you have a crystal ball that no one else has? 20 years ago, when I bought my first computer...a gateway...I certainly didn't know that 20 years later my cell phone would have more capability and memory. What will the battery technology be in 10...20 years? Do you know with certainty?

The key to long distance travel may well be swapping battery packs in lieu of charging them. Can you honestly not envision a network of "battery swapping 'filling stations'" across the nation once electrics are common? Israel is already doing this...though I think their system is struggling because it was premature.

Of course, battery packs would have to be standardized and made modular for this to work.

Swapping the electrolyte also shows some promise.

-Rich

 

[Dav8or]

Time for a Porsche 918 hybrid. 887 hp. 0-60 in 2.8. 80 mpg.

Nothing else to say.

Sure there is. How much does that little buggy cost anyhow??

 

[Dav8or]

I personally have no crystal ball and so have no idea what's actually coming down the pipe line of innovation, but I think the future of electric vehicles lies in fuel cells, not batteries. The hydrogen fuel cell that GM has right now completely replaces the ICE and gasoline right now, today. Similar range (about 300 miles) and similar recharge time, about 10 minutes.

The problem is, lack of hydrogen infrastructure, questions about the validity of using hydrogen on a mass scale and as usual, cost. GM has made amazing strides on lowering the cost of fuel cells, but last I read, the latest one they have still costs about $100,000 to make.

What needs to happen is a fuel cell needs to be invented that runs on some sort of petroleum, or bio liquid fuel, that way existing infrastructure can be used and the energy density could be the same as we're used to. I'm no phyisist, or engineer, so I can't speak to the enormity of this problem, but I have a hunch that this is the direction to go.

...and once they have a comparable automotive solution for gasoline/ICE replacement, airplanes are next!

 

[docmirror]

Swapping the electrolyte also shows some promise.

-Rich

Nice link. Shows promise, but scaling might be a problem. I don't know much about the chemistry of it but I hope it goes well.

 

[Skylane81E]

What needs to happen is a fuel cell needs to be invented that runs on some sort of petroleum, or bio liquid fuel, that way existing infrastructure can be used and the energy density could be the same as we're used to. I'm no phyisist, or engineer, so I can't speak to the enormity of this problem, but I have a hunch that this is the direction to go.

...and once they have a comparable automotive solution for gasoline/ICE replacement, airplanes are next!

They already exist, have for a while
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?70553-Construction-of-a-simple-alcohol-fuel-cell

Oh, BTW a breathalyzer is such a beast...

 

[stratobee]

The fuel cell is a dead end. It's too expensive, inefficient and all it does is ends us being dependent on crooked energy providers with dead end proprietary fuels all over again. The great thing about electric is that it's non-proprietary. The only reason nations and oil companies had us over a barrel (pun), and could charge us an arm and a leg, is that there's no way of making our own gas in our own backyards. With electric, that goes away. There are literally hundreds of ways to make electricity - solar, grid, water, waves etc. This makes it impossible for nations and governments to tax it the way they have with gasoline. They're promoting it now, but one day they will wake up and realise their whole tax base is gone.

I can't wait - who wants to be loved by an oil company/bureaucrat anyway?

 

[Skylane81E]

If the fuel cell can be made cheaper, or even with minor modifications to IC engines I can really see hydrogen becoming a major fuel source. It has a big advantage that there need not be any transportation costs involved, you can make it where you need it as most places already have the raw materials available, water and electricity. You can produce it at home and the gas station can produce it on site.

 

[ClimbnSink]

What ever happened to running conventional engines on natural gas/propane?

 

[RJM62]

What ever happened to running conventional engines on natural gas/propane?

My hunch is that there are too many people who are afraid of drilling anything deeper than a post hole in the earth.

The opposition to natural gas pipes is very strong here (I'm talking about just local distribution pipes, not massive pipelines), despite the fact that it would be in most folks' financial interests to be able to ditch oil or propane in favor of natural gas. The most common reason they give for their opposition is because they want to discourage natural gas drilling. Go figger.

-Rich

 

[SCCutler]

Maybe that's true for you, but not every employer would be okay with employees charging their cars on the company's dime. This isn't like charging a cell phone. I think I read that the charger pulls 12 amps, which would add up pretty quickly if more than a few people were doing it.

...

Commercial office buildings get substantial tax incentives for installing such devices. Charging stations just installed here at my building; 14 stories, and in six months, have not seen them used yet.

But their LEED/Green Certification is in-hand!

My hunch is that there are too many people who are afraid of drilling anything deeper than a post hole in the earth.

The opposition to natural gas pipes is very strong here (I'm talking about just local distribution pipes, not massive pipelines), despite the fact that it would be in most folks' financial interests to be able to ditch oil or propane in favor of natural gas. The most common reason they give for their opposition is because they want to discourage natural gas drilling. Go figger.

-Rich

Never mistake passion for knowledge; the confluence of the two is a rare occurrence.

 

[denverpilot]

But their LEED/Green Certification is in-hand! .

Mine put in six " Hybrid Only " parking spots that are hardly ever used. That got them the tax break.

They then added two electric powered TVs with the proceeds to replace a zero power old style manual lettered tenant board and building announcement bulletin board where one piece of printer paper and a piece of tape used to do the job. They then also added little LCD screens to every elevator with news and weather.

 

[Dav8or]

What ever happened to running conventional engines on natural gas/propane?

Go do it now. My Dad drove his Cadillacs for years on Propane. Makes the engine last lots longer. It's just a shorter range is all and you have the hassle of finding Propane refueling stations. A duel fuel rig is easy for older cars. Don't know about modern ones though.

If you want natural gas, Honda will sell you a new Civic right now that you can recharge in your garage at night. Just be prepared to have a 350 mile range go down to about 100 miles. Out on a road trip, good luck with the refuel. If you have a well defined commute, natural gas at your house and a second car for long trips, the natural gas Honda could make sense.

 

[Dav8or]

The fuel cell is a dead end. It's too expensive, inefficient and all it does is ends us being dependent on crooked energy providers with dead end proprietary fuels all over again.

See, I would say that batteries are a dead end, or at least partial dead end. Do the math on what it would take to recharge all the cars on the road at a time similar to what it takes to fill a tank of gas. The electricity requirements are staggering and the equipment is hard to imagine how an ordinary citizen could handle. Watch how many cars pull in and out of an Arco (or whatever your cheapo gas station is where you are) in an hour and then think of them all getting a nice 10-15 minute drink from an electric hose. Then do the math. Batteries can never replace gasoline convenience.

Fuel cells are expensive and inefficient? Have a look at batteries. Batteries are terribly inefficient and they certainly aren't cheap, otherwise we'd all be beating a path to the Tesla dealer. My point about fuel cells is, we need a break through, that means something we can't see right now, to make them viable. Because of our demand for fast recharge times and the lack of of a sufficient electric infrastructure, fuel cells are where we should be looking for the best way to electrify our transportation.

 

[comanchepilot]

Battery technology is limited by physics - not computational ability.

There are atomic level processors or memory now . . . all of it was thought of 20 years ago - computers getting smaller and faster is evolutionary. It is engineering - not materials science.

Battery and energy density storage is limited by the known materials we can use - there is no other technology even under consideration or research that can store power at levels in fossil fuels.

 

[docmirror]

Battery technology is limited by physics - not computational ability.

There are atomic level processors or memory now . . . all of it was thought of 20 years ago - computers getting smaller and faster is evolutionary. It is engineering - not materials science.

Battery and energy density storage is limited by the known materials we can use - there is no other technology even under consideration or research that can store power at levels in fossil fuels.

True, but things are improving a lot in the electric arena. Take a look at the research at MIT on that nano-tube capacitor. I'm not really up on it, but the deal is the surface area of the nano tube allows for a much greater charge at the atomic level around the tube or some such. It could be a deal changer, but of course, there's plenty of physics left to do. At one time, we burned coal to heat water, to make steam, to pipe to a piston, to expand the gas, then collect the expanded gas to a condenser to put back in the water tank. Super inefficient but we did it for a short time.

 

[David]

I bought a 2007 Camry Hybrid new about 5 years ago. I drove it for the first 2.5 years before giving it to my kids to use. I drive about 30,000 miles per year so it made a lot of sense for me. It's got about 100,000 miles on it now. I read about all the horror stories when I bought it - the battery won't last, the mileage is a lie, etc. So far, no problems. None. The Camry replaced my 1986 Mercedes 300SDL - a fantastic car! My only complaint about the Camry is that it's not much fun to drive which is a small complaint.

I'll be buying a car for me in the next six months and the Volt is on my list.

 

[jmp470]

I'm looking at getting a Volt myself. Does anyone have one? If so, PIREP please.

 

[docmirror]

All I can say to you Volt shoppers is do your numbers. I used a pretty simple linear equation in Excel and I got a .83 R^2 value for my predictions. The places where you need to interpolate are future value(depr), and the time value of money which affects the residual cost of the car after 8 years. The Prius C won, but changes in the commute profile could alter it significantly. If one were to make many short hops in the car, and return to a charging point, that would skew the numbers a lot.

 

[Velocity173]

I think the Cmax is the best all around deal. All the car mags chose it over the Prius. The Volts price is about 10 grand more compared to an equivalent Energi Cmax. Tesla? Yeah nice but good luck affording the purchase price. Oh yeah, about the batteries not lasting, mine is under warranty for 8 yrs. I'd say that's significant. Also I'd say the harm to the environment in incinerating it in 8 + yrs is far less than what I would put into the atmosphere in added gas without hybrid.

 

[jesse]

$350/month for 36 months $2500 down. Financing a $25000 car would be $100/month more. How is that making no financial sense? Isn't that what happens when you buy any car??

I love the way it drove...zippy. Way better than the Cruze.

Because it makes no financial sense. Why anyone would be willing to pay $15,100 to borrow a vehicle for three years and then have nothing to show for it makes no sense to me. You can buy a $15,000 vehicle for three years for the same money and walk away three years later OWNING something worth money.

I see people leasing at three or four hundred a month for their entire life then complain that they don't make enough money. You end up spending two to three times what you'd need to do to drive something nice normally. That decision costs people a million dollars when it comes time to retire.

The only way I can possibly imagine leasing could possibly make any sense is if you absolutely have to have a brand new car every three years period. There are very few people that need it.

Lease if you want - but don't do so thinking you're saving money. If you saved money they wouldn't lease.

 

[JeffDG]

The main issue with leasing is that you are paying interest on principal that you are not paying on.

You pay interest on the "Residual value" throughout the term of the lease, but you never pay any of that principal back, so you're effectively doing an interest only loan.

My current "commuter car" is coming up on year 10 of my 5 year note on it...still works great, I bought it just after my daughter was born, and I think it's 50:50 that I'll get another car when I hand this one off to her when she's 16.

 

[N801BH]

Because it makes no financial sense. Why anyone would be willing to pay $15,100 to borrow a vehicle for three years and then have nothing to show for it makes no sense to me. You can buy a $15,000 vehicle for three years for the same money and walk away three years later OWNING something worth money.

I see people leasing at three or four hundred a month for their entire life then complain that they don't make enough money. You end up spending two to three times what you'd need to do to drive something nice normally. That decision costs people a million dollars when it comes time to retire.

The only way I can possibly imagine leasing could possibly make any sense is if you absolutely have to have a brand new car every three years period. There are very few people that need it.

Lease if you want - but don't do so thinking you're saving money. If you saved money they wouldn't lease.

Because those people can't spell Equity..

 

[docmirror]

I think the Cmax is the best all around deal. All the car mags chose it over the Prius. The Volts price is about 10 grand more compared to an equivalent Energi Cmax. Tesla? Yeah nice but good luck affording the purchase price. Oh yeah, about the batteries not lasting, mine is under warranty for 8 yrs. I'd say that's significant. Also I'd say the harm to the environment in incinerating it in 8 + yrs is far less than what I would put into the atmosphere in added gas without hybrid.

The CMax was my personal choice. I like Ford, I like buying domestic, and the design seemed to be as good as the Prius. But, the CMax is aimed at the Prius standard, or the V which is the somewhat larger Prius. I compared to the Prius C which is smaller but get the best fuel economy. I was all set to buy the CMax and spend a bit more money but the dealer wouldn't deal at all. Not one penny. It seems to me that Ford is selling all cars and trucks as fast as they can make them, so they have absolutely no incentive to discount. This has been the case for TX dealers who are pretty flush right now.

I got discouraged and went to my second choice right across the street to the Toyota dealer and we made a pretty good discount for buying two of them. The Ford folks just didn't need my business that much, so I shopped elsewhere. I would have been happy with the CMax, and given up some economy and resale value for the Ford brand, but it just didn't happen.

 

[N801BH]

What if we put the top edge of a long turbine wheel in the roadway across the traffic lane ? Then the motion of the vehicles would generate the electricity. We consume the most energy during the day when vehicles are most active.

Better yet..... Install conveyor belts on all expressways.....

That should jump start this thread...

 

[Velocity173]

The CMax was my personal choice. I like Ford, I like buying domestic, and the design seemed to be as good as the Prius. But, the CMax is aimed at the Prius standard, or the V which is the somewhat larger Prius. I compared to the Prius C which is smaller but get the best fuel economy. I was all set to buy the CMax and spend a bit more money but the dealer wouldn't deal at all. Not one penny. It seems to me that Ford is selling all cars and trucks as fast as they can make them, so they have absolutely no incentive to discount. This has been the case for TX dealers who are pretty flush right now.

I got discouraged and went to my second choice right across the street to the Toyota dealer and we made a pretty good discount for buying two of them. The Ford folks just didn't need my business that much, so I shopped elsewhere. I would have been happy with the CMax, and given up some economy and resale value for the Ford brand, but it just didn't happen.

Same here. They wouldn't budge on price or my trade in. There were a couple other issues I wasn't pleased with as well. I put off the "Buying Experience" critique they kept sending me. I finally got tired of them asking for it so I filled it out. Tore them up on the critique.

 

[JeffDG]

Better yet..... Install conveyor belts on all expressways.....

That should jump start this thread...

Wait, I thought the conveyor belts were all going to airports.

 

[N801BH]

Wait, I thought the conveyor belts were all going to airports.

Oops... you are right... my mistake...

 

[comanchepilot]

Jesse - show me a $15000 car that in 3 years will be worth much more than $5? I know - I know - its still $5k but the Volt benefits here in California are tangible and real - and include the HOV lane - this takes 30 min off my wife's commute every day. 2.5 hours a week - 45 weeks a year - thats almost a week of time spent at home . . . and if you buy a $15k car 0 you are driving an ugly old and little $15k car. . ..

Yes - we own a Volt - there was ZERO final assembly under warranty. The vehicle ran as advertised since day 1. Cost was about $38.5 Cap Cost - leased 15,000 miles a year for $378 a month including tax for 36 months. $7500 off the lease from the Feds, $1500 check from the State of California - we have a vehicle charging plan with the power company - and our power bill so far is exactly the same as it was in 2011-2012 period - yes - EXACTLY the same within $100 - why? We pay way less for power between 6p and 10a than we did before - and so far with the solar panels on roof generating 3kWh about 10 hours a day we co-generate in the most expensive part of the day, meaning the power we sell back at 48 cents per kWh peak more than offsets the additional power the car uses. YMMV - literally - but the cost of the power for the car so far has been free from the rate changes. If we did not co-generate I expect we'd see a significantly higher bill.

Its my wife's car - she drives 70 miles a day - gets 45 miles from a charge. Gasoline for 25 miles a day and gets about 40mpg so from a DOC it costs us $2.56 a day or 3.6cents per mile for power/gas. . . . you can not beat that with a stick.

Plus - her company gives us $675 a month car allowance - so it costs us nothing in real life except the taxes on the money.

I would LOVE to see a Volt frame pick up - I'd buy one - it would last forever - put it on the S10 body - which was a great little pick up in its day- if you can find an S-10 or a 1980's Ranger or Mazda/Toyota small pick up they are worth more today that they cost.

 

[N801BH]

...... and so far with the solar panels on roof generating 3kWh about 10 hours a day we co-generate in the most expensive part of the day, meaning the power we sell back at 48 cents per kWh peak more than offsets the additional power the car uses. t.

WOW... Your power company is paying you .48 cents per Kilowatt hour for your solar electricity fed back into the grid??..

HOLY PV cells Batman...

Of course, if you have a 3KW solar panel set up on your roof then the capital outlay up front must have been in the 10 grand range???

 

[docmirror]

Same here. They wouldn't budge on price or my trade in. There were a couple other issues I wasn't pleased with as well. I put off the "Buying Experience" critique they kept sending me. I finally got tired of them asking for it so I filled it out. Tore them up on the critique.

Life's good when you're makin money. My brother works for Ford in the service dept. He's a sr line and diesel mech and he says they are booked weeks in advance. They have two new sales guys, and need more back office people right now. Think I'll go grab up some Ford stock.

 

[docmirror]

WOW... Your power company is paying you .48 cents per Kilowatt hour for your solar electricity fed back into the grid??..

HOLY PV cells Batman...

Of course, if you have a 3KW solar panel set up on your roof then the capital outlay up front must have been in the 10 grand range???

http://www.winmedic.com/Default.htm

Click on "Solar" in the lower left. This is an 8.6KW system. It went about $20k and we did much of the install ourselves. I don't own it, so I don't have the exact numbers. For a DIY right now today, a 10KW would run close to the same price.

In CA, there are pretty good incentives for generating. The tax breaks come from both commercial generation as well as prop tax, and also something on the Fed side as well.

A few words of warning for anyone wanting to do this. Know what your environmental factor are before starting. Snow, rain, and definitely wind loads are critical for success. It's a bummer to see your panels fly away after install and land in the neighbors yard two streets down. Do your planning well before buying panels or inverters. Ground the panel carefully. And use copper grounding lugs on each frame. Don't leave them floating electrically on the roof, or you'll be buying inverters each few years.

 

[N801BH]

http://www.winmedic.com/Default.htm

Click on "Solar" in the lower left. This is an 8.6KW system. It went about $20k and we did much of the install ourselves. I don't own it, so I don't have the exact numbers. For a DIY right now today, a 10KW would run close to the same price.

In CA, there are pretty good incentives for generating. The tax breaks come from both commercial generation as well as prop tax, and also something on the Fed side as well.

A few words of warning for anyone wanting to do this. Know what your environmental factor are before starting. Snow, rain, and definitely wind loads are critical for success. It's a bummer to see your panels fly away after install and land in the neighbors yard two streets down. Do your planning well before buying panels or inverters. Ground the panel carefully. And use copper grounding lugs on each frame. Don't leave them floating electrically on the roof, or you'll be buying inverters each few years.

Good feedback.. thanks... I am seriously looking into a 10 -12 KW array for my ranch so I can build a 80X80 hangar and move down there and stay off the grid.. A 100' tower with a turbine will be included too..

 

[comanchepilot]

WOW... Your power company is paying you .48 cents per Kilowatt hour for your solar electricity fed back into the grid??..

HOLY PV cells Batman...

Of course, if you have a 3KW solar panel set up on your roof then the capital outlay up front must have been in the 10 grand range???

Rule says that net generation is credited at the then current power generation rate - I think its really more like 32 cents during the day with the balance being the delivery charge . . . .but yeah. CPUC requires that co-generation be credited at the generation charge . . .

As for the capital outlay - did not cost me a dime - the panels were up and running when we bought the house -

 

[N747JB]

I am afraid your experience is similar to many people's when a new "hot" car comes out. The dealer, like myself, gets one or two per month and the phone is ringing off the hook for it, hard to want to discount one much when other folks are offering to pay more. BUT, after doing this for over 25 years, I have figured out the bloom falls off the rose quicker than most people think. I think our first C-Max sold at MSRP and when we got another couple a month later, they were just another car, make a deal and create a customer. It's certainly not a Ford issue, I remember when the Prius was hot and they were selling for over sticker. If you know anybody wanting a C-Max, I've got several of them.

The CMax was my personal choice. I like Ford, I like buying domestic, and the design seemed to be as good as the Prius. But, the CMax is aimed at the Prius standard, or the V which is the somewhat larger Prius. I compared to the Prius C which is smaller but get the best fuel economy. I was all set to buy the CMax and spend a bit more money but the dealer wouldn't deal at all. Not one penny. It seems to me that Ford is selling all cars and trucks as fast as they can make them, so they have absolutely no incentive to discount. This has been the case for TX dealers who are pretty flush right now.

I got discouraged and went to my second choice right across the street to the Toyota dealer and we made a pretty good discount for buying two of them. The Ford folks just didn't need my business that much, so I shopped elsewhere. I would have been happy with the CMax, and given up some economy and resale value for the Ford brand, but it just didn't happen.

 

[N801BH]

Rule says that net generation is credited at the then current power generation rate - I think its really more like 32 cents during the day with the balance being the delivery charge . . . .but yeah. CPUC requires that co-generation be credited at the generation charge . . .

As for the capital outlay - did not cost me a dime - the panels were up and running when we bought the house -

More stuff that is good to know.... Thanks..

Our local power company " Lower Valley Power" is a Co-Op so we own the deal... We buy our bulk electricity from Bonneville NW for about 3.2 cents per KWH and then sell it back to ourselves for 5.6 KWH.. It is staggering to hear people are paying 40 and 50 cents per KWH for electricity....

My situation on my ranch / private airport is I won't be tying into the grid so I don't get kickbacks from the outside.. Price one pays to be out in the middle of nowhere...

 

[comanchepilot]

The solar panels fit my Rule of avionics upgrading - which is that the prior owner performs all avionics upgrades to any airplane - so you buy it the way you want it.

The house came with the solar panels and they added no value to the house when we bought it in 2010. We bought pretty much at the bottom of the market of this cycle here in SoCal. Yeah for us. Til it goes down again.

SoCal Edison wanted to charge SIXTY cents a Kw for power from 1000-1800 01 Jun - 30Sep but the PUC would only let them charge 48 cents. Still amazingly expensive . . . but they need to bring all sorts of expensive power online in summer here - and summer does not end until the beginning of October - it was 94F on 03Nov . . . and 33F on 27Nov last year - price of living in the desert.

 

[docmirror]

I am afraid your experience is similar to many people's when a new "hot" car comes out. The dealer, like myself, gets one or two per month and the phone is ringing off the hook for it, hard to want to discount one much when other folks are offering to pay more. BUT, after doing this for over 25 years, I have figured out the bloom falls off the rose quicker than most people think. I think our first C-Max sold at MSRP and when we got another couple a month later, they were just another car, make a deal and create a customer. It's certainly not a Ford issue, I remember when the Prius was hot and they were selling for over sticker. If you know anybody wanting a C-Max, I've got several of them.

Yep it's not a Ford deal. Remember the Miata first year? People were paying $5k or more over sticker. Nutty. Similar happened with the Mini I recall. I don't begrudge a dealer for making a profit while profit making is good. I'd do the same thing. but the times were such that the Prius was a better financial deal. If I had liked the CMax just a little more than the Prius, I woulda done the deal. One of the selling points however was the Prius was in their 5th generation and seemed to have all the little bugs worked out well.

I still hate the damn display unit. 50 ways to watch your energy usage but no oil pressure or temp gauge. Gaaaahhhh.

 

[docmirror]

My situation on my ranch / private airport is I won't be tying into the grid so I don't get kickbacks from the outside.. Price one pays to be out in the middle of nowhere...

I don't want to dissuade you but consider off-grid carefully. People who live in the rural NW country are generally self sufficient about most things but they also take advantage of the grid power for a lot they don't realize until it's gone. Heat, cooling, fridge and lights. You have to figure your power consumption for worst case Feb month when your generation will be nil. Most people north of the 35 or surely 36th parallel won't do well on pure solar/batts. Many have broken down and bought a small diesel gen that they have to run from about mid Dec through March or into April.

Before I bought a house up in CO we looked at some off-grid. After considering it all, I just made a grid attached house a mandatory, cause I didn't want to deal with all the other hassles. YMMV of course.

 

[N801BH]

I don't want to dissuade you but consider off-grid carefully. People who live in the rural NW country are generally self sufficient about most things but they also take advantage of the grid power for a lot they don't realize until it's gone. Heat, cooling, fridge and lights. You have to figure your power consumption for worst case Feb month when your generation will be nil. Most people north of the 35 or surely 36th parallel won't do well on pure solar/batts. Many have broken down and bought a small diesel gen that they have to run from about mid Dec through March or into April.

Before I bought a house up in CO we looked at some off-grid. After considering it all, I just made a grid attached house a mandatory, cause I didn't want to deal with all the other hassles. YMMV of course.

I will have a back up 15 k gen set for those cloudy days.. Altho when it's cloudy the wind is blowing 50 mph.... Hooking up the grid in Merna Wy down at 2WY3 will be a connection to Pacific Power and they want 6 figures to bring power to me...... In times when the US is spending BILLIONS to electrify the middle east hell hole I feel left out of the loop when the REA should bring me power at a reasonable price.... The feds can't fix or build roads here but have the cash to lay down a few thousand miles of pavement in Afghanistan.... Go Figure..