Cherokee Pre_Flight Sucks

[Chris Mitchell]

[strikethrough]That's the spirit! Dig in!
Is there anything else we don't need to do before we go flying? You seem to have a good handle on it and don't need anyone else's advice. Clearly that means that you have it all figured out. Please share. I'm open to learning something new.[/strikethrough]

Oh, nevermind. Have a nice day!

Jim I didn't ask for advice...or a lecture...on how to fly my Six, or any airplane for that matter. I also wasn't giving advice....or a lecture. Go fly your plane how ever you want to. Anymore questions?

 

[EdFred]

That is absolutely retarded. Any water is going to end up at the lowest point. The water is going to always come out first. Not be the last 1 second of an 11 second drain.

 

[tlrussell]

That is absolutely retarded. Any water is going to end up at the lowest point. The water is going to always come out first. Not be the last 1 second of an 11 second drain.

I thought so too until I filled the tanks and then washed the plane. The next morning I got water in the tips and the belly drain, that was a real eye opener.

Stuff goes sideways here really fast. Let me repeat the question. The POH procedure sucks with all the gettin in and out. If anyone has a better flow please let me know. I WILL BE FOLLOWING THE SUMP PROCEDURE, the order of things though is flexible.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Jim I didn't ask for advice...or a lecture...on how to fly my Six, or any airplane for that matter. I also wasn't giving advice....or a lecture. Go fly your plane how ever you want to. Anymore questions?

Yes, are you a casual ATP (did it for the experience, not because it was required for a job/position), do you work for a cargo hauler, or do you work for an airline? I only ask because I don't want to die because of the inaction of someone that I must trust my life to.
That's just me. I'm big on procedural compliance and holding people accountable for their actions/inactions. If you are only flying your plane then we are good.
Jim
(PS. If you are taking this personally and it bothers you then you might just want to ask yourself why it is bothering you.)

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

I thought so too until I filled the tanks and then washed the plane. The next morning I got water in the tips and the belly drain, that was a real eye opener.

Stuff goes sideways here really fast. Let me repeat the question. The POH procedure sucks with all the gettin in and out. If anyone has a better flow please let me know. I WILL BE FOLLOWING THE SUMP PROCEDURE, the order of things though is flexible.

Sump from the outer most to the inner most and then do the center sump. It makes sense that you had water at the tip and the center. Both places have low points. (Big assumption on my part that the STC'd tip tanks have a low point. They should, but I don't have personal knowledge.)

As for the need for the long drain time to clear the lines from the tip to the center sump, is the tubing small enough and at a shallow enough slope that the surface tension of the water could keep it from flowing down to the sump on its own? Someone at Piper thought so. It may have been a lawyer and not an engineer, but someone thinks it is possible.

BTW, I always pour any clean/dry fuel right back into the tank, so no issue with wasting fuel in my case.

Jim

 

[Jay Honeck]

That is absolutely retarded. Any water is going to end up at the lowest point. The water is going to always come out first. Not be the last 1 second of an 11 second drain.

A slightly different point, I once drained a half GALLON of water out of the left wing of a Cherokee 140 rental.

It happens. That's why I say, if it's a rental, or if you park outside, or if you don't fly often, check the belly sump.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Yes, are you a casual ATP (did it for the experience, not because it was required for a job/position), do you work for a cargo hauler, or do you work for an airline? I only ask because I don't want to die because of the inaction of someone that I must trust my life to.
That's just me. I'm big on procedural compliance and holding people accountable for their actions/inactions. If you are only flying your plane then we are good.
Jim
(PS. If you are taking this personally and it bothers you then you might just want to ask yourself why it is bothering you.)

What an amazing display of chutzpah.

No offense, but who are you to tell anyone how to fly their plane in the absence of a request for your opinion?

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Jim I didn't ask for advice...or a lecture...on how to fly my Six, or any airplane for that matter. I also wasn't giving advice....or a lecture. Go fly your plane how ever you want to. Anymore questions?

Yes, are you a casual ATP (did it for the experience, not because it was required for a job/position), do you work for a cargo hauler, or do you work for an airline? I only ask because I don't want to die because of the inaction of someone that I must trust my life to.
That's just me. I'm big on procedural compliance and holding people accountable for their actions/inactions. If you are only flying your plane then we are good.
Jim
(PS. If you are taking this personally and it bothers you then you might just want to ask yourself why it is bothering you.)

What an amazing display of chutzpah.

No offense, but who are you to tell anyone how to fly their plane in the absence of a request for your opinion?

Note that he asked if I had any further questions. Go back and re-read my post. It clearly states that if he is only flying his plane then I don't have any further questions.

Jim

 

[murphey]

the belly drain is literally under the passenger seat. POH says 11 seconds for each tip tank and 5 sec for the mains holding the lever for 32 seconds gets you a quart of gas. what is surprising is the amount of detritus that comes out of the drain. Good reminder to keep the fuel filter clean though.

Interesting...I've got a copy of the Dakota (236) POH and the normal preflight for fuel states:

Fuel tank sump - drain and check for water, sediment and proper fuel

The Amplified checklist states:
Drain the fuel tank thru the quick drain located at the lower inboard rear corner of the tank, making sure that enough fuel has been drained to insure that all water and sediment is removed.

Nothing about 11 seconds...

However, on the PA32 (Cherokee 6), here's the explanation for the 11 seconds each side:

Make sure enough fuel has flowed to drain the fuel line between each tank outlet and the fuel strainer, as well as the strainer itself. With full tanks it will take approximately 11 seconds for drain all the fuel in one of the fuel lines from the tip tank to the strainer, and approximately 6 seconds to drain all of the fuel from the line from either main tank to the fuel strainer.

 

[tlrussell]

Interesting...I've got a copy of the Dakota (236) POH and the normal preflight for fuel states:

Fuel tank sump - drain and check for water, sediment and proper fuel

The Amplified checklist states:
Drain the fuel tank thru the quick drain located at the lower inboard rear corner of the tank, making sure that enough fuel has been drained to insure that all water and sediment is removed.

Nothing about 11 seconds...

However, on the PA32 (Cherokee 6), here's the explanation for the 11 seconds each side:

Make sure enough fuel has flowed to drain the fuel line between each tank outlet and the fuel strainer, as well as the strainer itself. With full tanks it will take approximately 11 seconds for drain all the fuel in one of the fuel lines from the tip tank to the strainer, and approximately 6 seconds to drain all of the fuel from the line from either main tank to the fuel strainer.

that is with FULL tanks with less than full it is even longer. I usually fly with full tanks though.

 

[Chris Mitchell]

Yes, are you a casual ATP (did it for the experience, not because it was required for a job/position), do you work for a cargo hauler, or do you work for an airline? I only ask because I don't want to die because of the inaction of someone that I must trust my life to.
That's just me. I'm big on procedural compliance and holding people accountable for their actions/inactions. If you are only flying your plane then we are good.
Jim
(PS. If you are taking this personally and it bothers you then you might just want to ask yourself why it is bothering you.)

Let me put it this way...I've done much more flying than you and in much more complex airplanes than you and probably to much more interesting places than you.

But back to the real point...

Since you you seem to be struggling with this let me try to explain it to you AGAIN. I wasn't giving advice to the op on how to strain the fuel from his Cherokee Six. I wasn't asking for, nor did I want, advice from another poster on how to strain the fuel from MY Cherokee Six. I didnt want, or need, a safety lesson from that same poster. And I most certainly wasn't asking for advice...or a lecture on professionalism...or a safety lesson...or any input what so ever from YOU!

Furthermore, I don't give a darn how you fly your plane and I suggest from here on you mind you own business as to how I operate MY airplane.

Understood?

PS. It takes a little more than a casual internet conversation with a guy named kiddos driver (not that there is anything wrong with that name) for me to take it personally.

 

[ARFlyer]

you sump a quart? really?

He needs it for his 2-stroke lawn equipment.

I'm not trying to be a butt, but

If your saying bending over to drain some fuel is to much, do you ever check the main gear? Or the underside of the winds/flaps for FOD damage?

 

[txflyer]

I am so diggin my Cessna right now ...

 

[ARFlyer]

I am so diggin my Cessna right now ...

Until that Pitot Tube or flap trailing edge says hello....

 

[denverpilot]

You guys realize there's a lot of variance of the fuel sumps between older 172/182's and newer ones, right?



The 172's I trained in had between 2 and 10 sumps to drain depending on the model year. My 182P has only two.

My 182P has three sumps and a pull handle. What happened to yours?

(One on each wing root, belly sump, and the handle for the engine compartment collector.)

Honestly the belly sump isn't any nicer to get to than the Piper wing sumps. I just wanted to bust his chops with the creeper comment.

 

[denverpilot]

He needs it for his 2-stroke lawn equipment.

Dude. I pour it in the powered tug.

 

[FastEddieB]

Since you you seem to be struggling with this let me try to explain it to you AGAIN. I wasn't giving advice to the op on how to strain the fuel from his Cherokee Six. I wasn't asking for, nor did I want, advice from another poster on how to strain the fuel from MY Cherokee Six. I didnt want, or need, a safety lesson from that same poster. And I most certainly wasn't asking for advice...or a lecture on professionalism...or a safety lesson...

PS. It takes a little more than a casual internet conversation with a guy named kiddos driver (not that there is anything wrong with that name) for me to take it personally.

Since you asked my advice, I would say your problem is exactly taking things personally.

You mentioned a procedure (skipping a certain sump drain regularly) that I think, from reading accident reports and understanding how sumps and contamination work, has brought down small planes in the past, causing property damage, injury and even death.

Bear in mind that this site is visited by pilots and potential pilots of all levels. Some have not even started training. They will absorb every word you write with a certain amount of credulity, adding it to their knowledge base of how planes are flown and how pilots behave, if even subconsciously.

Message: some experienced pilots forgo POH recommended procedures and "roll their own", so to speak. And that draining certain sumps is optional, regardless of what the manufacturer recommends.

I think I've already stipulated I held/hold very little hope of changing your mindset or procedures - they are apparently so ingrained that you go into defensive mode almost immediately upon having them questioned.

But hopefully the words I type and the warnings I give, along with their rationales, may get through to some here, so that they can see an opposing viewpoint. Maybe change their behavior, if not yours. Maybe even save a life someday.

Maybe it's the instructor in me that wants to do this. If you take any criticism from me as unwanted "advice", feel free to ignore it. You clearly already have, and don't need my blessing to do so.

If you want avoid any advice, just start putting members who offer any on "Ignore". You will then be able to mold this forum into the echo chamber you apparently seek.

Good luck with that.

 

[C182P]

My 182P has three sumps and a pull handle. What happened to yours?

(One on each wing root, belly sump, and the handle for the engine compartment collector.)

Honestly the belly sump isn't any nicer to get to than the Piper wing sumps. I just wanted to bust his chops with the creeper comment.

Only two on mine, one under each wing. Nothing on the belly. There is a strainer release in the engine compartment, but I considered that unrelated to the discussion.

I know the P was made in multiple years but I'm not familiar with the differences. Mine is a 1973 model. My POH lists airspeeds in MPH, and the 1976 182P POH I've seen lists them in KTs, so clearly there are differences (beyond the extra sump you have in yours).

 

[Fearless Tower]

Only two on mine, one under each wing. Nothing on the belly. There is a strainer release in the engine compartment, but I considered that unrelated to the discussion.

Actually, the strainer release inside the engine compartment of a Cessna is the closest relation to what the OP is talking about. In the PA32, that release is inside the cabin and the drain/ outlet for it under the belly.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Let me put it this way...I've done much more flying than you and in much more complex airplanes than you and probably to much more interesting places than you.

Congradulations. Nice to see that you somehow think that this makes you immune from question. If you state that you don't bother to sump your aircraft and expect not to get called on it then you clearly don't understand how sites that promote the free and open exchange of ideas work.

I only want to know who you fly for so that I can stay away from them. From what you have posted here it appears you have a disregard for procedural compliance and are not open to being questioned. Both very dangerous traits for someone responsible for the lives of the cattle strapped in behind you.

But back to the real point...

Since you you seem to be struggling with this let me try to explain it to you AGAIN.

Nope, not struggling with how you fly your Six. I clearly stated that in my last response to you. Try reading it again. It is pretty clear.

I wasn't giving advice to the op on how to strain the fuel from his Cherokee Six. I wasn't asking for, nor did I want, advice from another poster on how to strain the fuel from MY Cherokee Six. I didnt want, or need, a safety lesson from that same poster.

Good. Go back and re-read my last post to you. Fly your Six how you like. I just want to know which airline not to fly on.

And I most certainly wasn't asking for advice...or a lecture on professionalism...or a safety lesson...or any input what so ever from YOU!

Please refer to the note above about this being a site that promotes the free and open exchange of ideas. If you don't want people to respond to a comment about blowing off the operating procedures for your aircraft, don't make the comment. If you make the comment you should fully expect to be called on it.

Furthermore, I don't give a darn how you fly your plane and I suggest from here on you mind you own business as to how I operate MY airplane.

Again, re-read my response to you. Fly your plane how you like. Just let me know who you fly for so that I can avoid that airline. Oh, and as for minding my own business about how you fly yours, you posted it on a public forum...

Understood?

I do. Clearly you don't.

PS. It takes a little more than a casual internet conversation with a guy named kiddos driver (not that there is anything wrong with that name) for me to take it personally.

Your posts seem to indicate otherwise...

 

[tlrussell]

Since you asked my advice, I would say your problem is exactly taking things personally.

You mentioned a procedure (skipping a certain sump drain regularly) that I think, from reading accident reports and understanding how sumps and contamination work, has brought down small planes in the past, causing property damage, injury and even death.

Bear in mind that this site is visited by pilots and potential pilots of all levels. Some have not even started training. They will absorb every word you write with a certain amount of credulity, adding it to their knowledge base of how planes are flown and how pilots behave, if even subconsciously.

Message: some experienced pilots forgo POH recommended procedures and "roll their own", so to speak. And that draining certain sumps is optional, regardless of what the manufacturer recommends.

I think I've already stipulated I held/hold very little hope of changing your mindset or procedures - they are apparently so ingrained that you go into defensive mode almost immediately upon having them questioned.

But hopefully the words I type and the warnings I give, along with their rationales, may get through to some here, so that they can see an opposing viewpoint. Maybe change their behavior, if not yours. Maybe even save a life someday.

Maybe it's the instructor in me that wants to do this. If you take any criticism from me as unwanted "advice", feel free to ignore it. You clearly already have, and don't need my blessing to do so.

If you want avoid any advice, just start putting members who offer any on "Ignore". You will then be able to mold this forum into the echo chamber you apparently seek.

Good luck with that.

Based on the garbage and water that has come out of that drain already I will never deviate from POH, Thanks Eddie

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Based on the garbage and water that has come out of that drain already I will never deviate from POH, Thanks Eddie

There are two lessons written in blood that always come to mind when I am sumping my tanks:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20121113X94546&key=1
A Cherokee Six that the pilot drained the main sump onto the tarmac without inspecting it and did not check any of the wing sumps.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001211X11374&ntsbno=CHI99FA029&akey=1
A 182 that did not get sumped properly following fueling from a contaminated tank.

Both accidents resulted in the death of the pilot. The 182 pilot was a 4,000+ hour ATP pilot who had done much more flying than me. The laws of physics have no respect for titles or experience. You bend to them. They don't bend to you. The systems in the aircraft only work if you know the limitations and follow the procedures.

I carefully control how my plane is stored and I fuel it myself when ever I can. I am still surprised at what comes out of the sumps sometimes! (Not part of this discussion, but I am often shocked at the condition of the o-ring seals on fuel caps of rental aircraft. New o-rings are cheap and are easy to replace. I do mine at annual every year.)

Jim

 

[F01LA]

I've never seen anyone catch and examine what comes out of the fuel strainer in a Cessna. This thread is certainly making me rethink that...

 

[flyingron]

It's not clear what checking the output of the strainer will do for you. Once you have cleared any water in the bottom of it, you're not doing anything other than putting avgas on the ground without any real purpose. The tank sumps are a different story. However, one needs to hope that they are actually at the bottom of the tanks and will yield all the water/contamination. You keep pulling from those until you get clean samples. Unfortunately there are a couple of reasons why this isn't true:

1. The tanks on relatively flat wings (such as high wing Cessnas) are very flat and the sump isn't necessarily always at the low point.

2. Bladder tanks can hold water in the folds of the tank if they occur. This is why the 182 preflight was modded to do a lot of extra steps to try to dislodge any water so trapped.

 

[F01LA]

However, one needs to hope that they are actually at the bottom of the tanks and will yield all the water/contamination. You keep pulling from those until you get clean samples. Unfortunately there are a couple of reasons why this isn't true:

1. The tanks on relatively flat wings (such as high wing Cessnas) are very flat and the sump isn't necessarily always at the low point.

2. Bladder tanks can hold water in the folds of the tank if they occur. This is why the 182 preflight was modded to do a lot of extra steps to try to dislodge any water so trapped.

Are owners of pre-restart Cessnas rolling the dice every time they fly? Maybe the "Sump This" guy was onto something.

 

[txflyer]

I don't catch the gas coming from the gascolator when I pull the knob to drain it. I drain it once before the first flight and that's it for the day. I could look up under the cowl flap at it with a flashlight before I drain it, but I don't.

I don't know how I would rig something to catch it if I wanted to. Maybe I'll just start looking at it...

Tip: Always look to confirm it shut itself off when you push the knob back in....

 

[flyingron]

I catch the output of the strainer only because there's no reason not to. Unlike the Cessna's I don't have a remote to work it so I have to get underneath the plane. Conveniently it's only a few inches away from the main tank train, so I collect both in the gatts jar and either pour it back into the tank or in the fuel cans that our airport provides for such samples. Since I usually do all this in the hangar, dumping it on the floor isn't really an option.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I don't catch the gas coming from the gascolator when I pull the knob to drain it. I drain it once before the first flight and that's it for the day.

That is the traditional method, but in this day and age, for many of us at 'environmentally conscious' or perhaps more accurately, 'legislated' airports, that practice can get you some rather hefty fines.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

I've never seen anyone catch and examine what comes out of the fuel strainer in a Cessna. This thread is certainly making me rethink that...

The mechanic who fixed the final strainer in the mooney ( under the pilots seat.)said it was the consistency of grape jelly. A fuel, dirt and water mix. He said it was a lucky thing it quit where it did or my wife and I would have been dead. Remember...it had been annualed two weeks before this! For two grand!

 

[F01LA]

The mechanic who fixed the final strainer in the mooney ( under the pilots seat.)said it was the consistency of grape jelly. A fuel, dirt and water mix. He said it was a lucky thing it quit where it did or my wife and I would have been dead. Remember...it had been annualed two weeks before this! For two grand!

Can you drain it as easily as you can the Cessnas? I think that even without catching it you'd notice "grape jelly" on the ground.

 

[mondtster]

Can you drain it as easily as you can the Cessnas? I think that even without catching it you'd notice "grape jelly" on the ground.

To drain the Mooney strainers you pull a ring located on the cabin floor. To see what came out of the strainer you'd have to get back out of the airplane. Some people do, some don't, and others never even bother to pull the drain.

If the substance in the strainer was that thick I'd question whether anything would even come out of the drain at all.

 

[txflyer]

That is the traditional method, but in this day and age, for many of us at 'environmentally conscious' or perhaps more accurately, 'legislated' airports, that practice can get you some rather hefty fines.

That's a shame, but I understand. Twenty thousand planes peeing gas on the ground ever day can add up I guess.

The tarmac where I'm at is asphalt, so I like to think the gas just becomes part of it's matrix in the grand scheme of things. You can't tell anywhere where you drain it after a minute.

That would be a devil to have to catch it. I don't know how the Cessna boys do it. I guess someone makes something out there for it ... I just haven't looked.

 

[JHW]

That's a shame, but I understand. Twenty thousand planes peeing gas on the ground ever day can add up I guess.

The tarmac where I'm at is asphalt, so I like to think the gas just becomes part of it's matrix in the grand scheme of things. You can't tell anywhere where you drain it after a minute.

That would be a devil to have to catch it. I don't know how the Cessna boys do it. I guess someone makes something out there for it ... I just haven't looked.

the gas into asphalt isn't the issue, it's the accumulation of lead in the surrounding soil over decades and decades. Many airports don't face development pressure because they are an EPA disaster waiting to befall the developer. We can argue relative risk of lead contamination among ourselves all we want, but merit has nothing to do with the costs you'll incurr once the epa starts taking soil samples.

 

[txflyer]

the gas into asphalt isn't the issue, it's the accumulation of lead in the surrounding soil over decades and decades. Many airports don't face development pressure because they are an EPA disaster waiting to befall the developer. We can argue relative risk of lead contamination among ourselves all we want, but merit has nothing to do with the costs you'll incurr once the epa starts taking soil samples.

Soil remediation. Been there, done that.

And I don't want any more to do with it....

So how do you catch a Cessna pee cup? Someone show me how it's done, I might start doing it. I sure don't want to do it at OSH or somewhere they'll get all snarky about it...