Cherokee 6 vs Saratoga SP

WhichWays_Up

WhichWays_Up

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WhichWays_Up
Made a post a few weeks back about upgrading from my Cherokees 180D to ab Arrow 180. I've since realized that's a dumb idea (thanks guys!)

I've come across two PA32s. The main reason for upgrading is range and "speed".

One is a '67 Cherokee 6/300 (7700TT)
2 Owners since new. Fresh Victor Black engine (108 SMOH). Clean history. Dated Avionics (530W, Altimatic IIIB) 84G Fuel

Other is a '81 Saratoga SP (5300TT)
5 Owners. 886 SMOH. 2 Blade (on a Saratoga?) 430Wx2, KFC 200, 107G Fuel
Currently Grounded with a dead "dual mag" issue. AME gave me quotes for an ElectroAir Ignition Conversion. Works well with the budget, gets rid of that dumb setup.

All things aside, both need some upgrades, but both are in the price range and have good logs (the '67 has ALL logs including the original Piper bill of sale, 2 owners.)

Questions for owners:

Is the Tapered Wing and Retract worth the increase in speed? MX cost?

Been quoted Cherokee 6 speeds of around 130 knots. Saratoga SP of around 145.....Sounds right?

Not worried about insurance. Gotta build time to get time. Have about 30h retract already, not that it'll help too much lol

Appreciate it. I'm going grey doing this research o_O
 
My Hershey bar winged Lance cruises 150. I'd expect the taper wing to maybe add another 5. 6-300 should be more like 135. Is that delta worth anything? That's up to you. It was to me. Assuming similar hull values (doubtful considering the age difference) retract insurance will run you about 2X. Last I heard the Electroair setup was buggy and caused more issues than a dual mag. Dual mag is kinda dumb, but not really an issue if you keep up on maintenance.

I wouldn't be afraid of a two blade. It will help with W&B (the three blade is very heavy and very far from CG) and should cruise a couple knots faster. Be aware the rear cargo door wasn't a thing on the very early models...67 might've been the first year? (or maybe the last without?) The 67 will have fiberglass fuel tank wingtips that have either been repaired or will need to be soon. Also a 4 way fuel selector. The 'Toga will just have left/right/off. Four tanks plumbed as two, greatly simplifies fuel management.

Personally, given the choice as you present it, I'd take the 'Toga, although being grounded with a "mag issue" is a bit of a red flag. They aren't all that hard to get repaired. Caveat to that is if you need 7 seats or a big useful load, then the older birds win. My Lance has 1520 lb UL, the last Saratogas were down into the 1100's. The early 6-260's can approach 1700.

There is no comfier single engine piston. The Cirrus might match it up front, but it can't do this:

52.jpg

Good Luck! The PA-32 Owner's & Pilots group on Facebook is pretty good if you do FB.
 
Check with your insurance broker on insurance of retract versus non-retract.

Look at POHs for fuel burn for those faster speeds.
 
Jim K said:
My Hershey bar winged Lance cruises 150. I'd expect the taper wing to maybe add another 5. 6-300 should be more like 135. Is that delta worth anything? That's up to you. It was to me. Assuming similar hull values (doubtful considering the age difference) retract insurance will run you about 2X. Last I heard the Electroair setup was buggy and caused more issues than a dual mag. Dual mag is kinda dumb, but not really an issue if you keep up on maintenance.

I wouldn't be afraid of a two blade. It will help with W&B (the three blade is very heavy and very far from CG) and should cruise a couple knots faster. Be aware the rear cargo door wasn't a thing on the very early models...67 might've been the first year? (or maybe the last without?) The 67 will have fiberglass fuel tank wingtips that have either been repaired or will need to be soon. Also a 4 way fuel selector. The 'Toga will just have left/right/off. Four tanks plumbed as two, greatly simplifies fuel management.

Personally, given the choice as you present it, I'd take the 'Toga, although being grounded with a "mag issue" is a bit of a red flag. They aren't all that hard to get repaired. Caveat to that is if you need 7 seats or a big useful load, then the older birds win. My Lance has 1520 lb UL, the last Saratogas were down into the 1100's. The early 6-260's can approach 1700.

There is no comfier single engine piston. The Cirrus might match it up front, but it can't do this:

View attachment 131338

Good Luck! The PA-32 Owner's & Pilots group on Facebook is pretty good if you do FB
Click to expand...


Thank you VERY much for the reply!

The Saratoga actually has a deposit on it already from another buyer, so that's off the book now anyways.

But I found your claim of the ElectroAir problems intriguing, so I did a bunch of research last night. I didn't realize they're causing so much trouble! Pilots are actually removing them only months after installing them. Thank you for that information!

As far as payload, it's just full fuel and me, maybe a passenger once and a while. No kids or dogs.

Thanks again!
 
Pinecone said:
Check with your insurance broker on insurance of retract versus non-retract.

Look at POHs for fuel burn for those faster speeds.
Click to expand...

Both are done. Looking for real world information on the aircraft themselves. Always take the POH numbers with a grain of salt!
 
WhichWays_Up said:
Thank you VERY much for the reply!

The Saratoga actually has a deposit on it already from another buyer, so that's off the book now anyways.

But I found your claim of the ElectroAir problems intriguing, so I did a bunch of research last night. I didn't realize they're causing so much trouble! Pilots are actually removing them only months after installing them. Thank you for that information!

As far as payload, it's just full fuel and me, maybe a passenger once and a while. No kids or dogs.

Thanks again!
Click to expand...
I’m confused. If you don’t need room for five passengers why are you considering a Saratoga or Cherokee 6? Wouldn’t a Comanche, Mooney, or V35 get you more speed with lower costs?
 
AlleyCat67 said:
I’m confused. If you don’t need room for five passengers why are you considering a Saratoga or Cherokee 6? Wouldn’t a Comanche, Mooney, or V35 get you more speed with lower costs?
Click to expand...

Fair question. I'm not a small guy. My 180 is not bad actually, that's why I own it. But it's not what I'd call "roomy".....

I'm not comfortable in Bo's. No matter how much foam is removed from the seat, my body build makes its too uncomfortable for me want to own one....

Never been in a Mooney. Most up here are dealing with corrosion on the tubular structure. But they are nice. I've heard the "Al Mooney was a big guy" from everyone and their uncles....

My AME is a Comanche owner. He's the Piper man! One of a few that can properly rig the gear still. I've been in/flown his 250 a few times. His is the older two tank, without the range I want. I'd have to find a newer one with the larger fuel capacity.

But I like the room of the PA32/34 aircraft. The money I'm spending, I'd better comfortable!
 
WhichWays_Up said:
Never been in a Mooney
Click to expand...
If you don't feel comfortable in a bonanza, you won't fit in a Mooney either. They're a little tighter than your Cherokee.

If I had your mission, and could stretch the budget into the 300s, I'd be looking for an older sr22t.

I'm 6'4" and 275lb. The cirrus and the pa32 are both very comfortable. Comanche, 182, 210 next step down. Then Cherokees & bo's. Id put 172s and Mooney's in the category of "I fit, but I'm not happy about it". Meanwhile @flyingcheesehead is bigger than me and flies a Mooney :dunno:, so it's somewhat subjective.
 
Jim K said:
If you don't feel comfortable in a bonanza, you won't fit in a Mooney either. They're a little tighter than your Cherokee.

If I had your mission, and could stretch the budget into the 300s, I'd be looking for an older sr22t.

I'm 6'4" and 275lb. The cirrus and the pa32 are both very comfortable. Comanche, 182, 210 next step down. Then Cherokees & bo's. Id put 172s and Mooney's in the category of "I fit, but I'm not happy about it". Meanwhile @flyingcheesehead is bigger than me and flies a Mooney :dunno:, so it's somewhat subjective.
Click to expand...


Subjective is correct. It's annoying though that everyone differs in dimensions lol.

I can comfortably get in a 152 (alone)!.....but I'm uncomfortable in a Bonanza :eek:

My tall torso is the bain of my existence.

Even cars I'm surprised at. I can fit perfectly in some compact cars with moonroofs, but I'm uncomfortable in some full size cars or even half ton trucks :cryin:
 
That's a shame because you seem perfect for a PA-28-235 if not for wanting a little more hip room.

I'm 6'4" 270lbs and am comfortable in the PA-28. But my forever plane will be a PA-32.
 
Gess said:
That's a shame because you seem perfect for a PA-28-235 if not for wanting a little more hip room.

I'm 6'4" 270lbs and am comfortable in the PA-28. But my forever plane will be a PA-32.
Click to expand...


The PA28-235/Dakota's.....they hold 84 gallons as well don't they? I never thought of that. Not sure if it would get me further though.
 
WhichWays_Up said:
Made a post a few weeks back about upgrading from my Cherokees 180D to ab Arrow 180. I've since realized that's a dumb idea (thanks guys!)

I've come across two PA32s. The main reason for upgrading is range and "speed".

One is a '67 Cherokee 6/300 (7700TT)
2 Owners since new. Fresh Victor Black engine (108 SMOH). Clean history. Dated Avionics (530W, Altimatic IIIB) 84G Fuel

Other is a '81 Saratoga SP (5300TT)
5 Owners. 886 SMOH. 2 Blade (on a Saratoga?) 430Wx2, KFC 200, 107G Fuel
Currently Grounded with a dead "dual mag" issue. AME gave me quotes for an ElectroAir Ignition Conversion. Works well with the budget, gets rid of that dumb setup.

All things aside, both need some upgrades, but both are in the price range and have good logs (the '67 has ALL logs including the original Piper bill of sale, 2 owners.)

Questions for owners:

Is the Tapered Wing and Retract worth the increase in speed? MX cost?

Been quoted Cherokee 6 speeds of around 130 knots. Saratoga SP of around 145.....Sounds right?

Not worried about insurance. Gotta build time to get time. Have about 30h retract already, not that it'll help too much lol

Appreciate it. I'm going grey doing this research o_O
Click to expand...
I owned a Cherokee 235 until last September. A fabulous plane with a great useful load. Cruised at 135kts TAS although a little fuel hungry, 16PGH or so. I am 6ft 270ilbs. The Cherokee was little tight. I decided I really wanted a Cherokee 6 or Saratoga Turbo. I ruled out the 6 in favor of a turbo Toga SP. After putting a couple into prebuys (neither passed), my wife talked some reason into me and I realized that 99% of the time it would be me and her and maybe our dogs and that the kids probably wouldn't be joining us that often. So I "kicked it up a notch" and got a Mooney Ovation with full glass and TKS. 1100#UL. I cruise between 175-182 KTAS on 15-17 gph or so. The Mooney is actually 1.5" wider than the Cherokee and the Bo. My CFI that I did transition training with is 6'4", 220lbs. We both fit up front no problem. I found an Ovation to sit in before I bought one, to make sure. I have flown the Mooney with 3 full sized males as passengers. Other than a fuel penalty, everyone was comfortable.

So what I'm trying to say is

1. Define your mission. Do you REALLY need the extra space in the back? Would you rather have extra speed? Fuel efficiency? Turbo? TKS or a glass panel?
2. Take most of the advice here as "advisory" (lol). If there's a plane you like, or think fits your mission, go check one out. Sit in it, if possible get someone to take you around the patch. Learn everything you can about it. You will be surprised about how many common myths are dispelled that way!
3. DON'T RULE ANYTHING OUT UNTIL YOU SEE FOR YOURSELF.
4. I will second the opinions of the poster recommending the Lance. Excellent value and decent performance + space. Personally, I love the PA-32's. Great planes. If they fit your mission, you will be happy. Cherokee 6 is a great and comfy load hauler but a tad slow. Later Saratogas have less UL.
5. Don't fall in love with a particular bird until it's been through pre-buy.

Good luck and good hunting!
 
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You don't need a newer Comanche with 4 tanks. There are some out there (I have a 58) with tip tanks.
 
Here's a copy of a thread on cabin width from another group - hope this helps:

The range of cabin sizes in the SE piston market is between 38 and 50 inches. That is a full 12 inches / 30 cm difference between the smallest and the widest cabin. What I found very interesting is that some cabins which are said to be spacy are in fact narrower than others which are said to be tiny. But here are the most popular types:

The Cessna 150 is the tightest with 38 inches/96 cm.

The Cessna 172 and 152 according to Cessna’s website is 40 inches / 102 cm wide.

The Grumman AA5 is 41 inches / 104 cm wide.

The Cessna 182, PA28 and Bonanzas have 42 inch/107 cm cabin widths

The Cessna 206/210 has 43 inches/109 cm

The Mooney cabin is 43.5 inches/110 cm wide.

Next in the close ball park is the Piper Saratoga/Seneca cabin with 48.25 inches and the Corvalis with 48 inches/122 cm.

Next are the Malibu with 49.6 inches / 126 cm followed closely by the Cirrus SR20/22 with 49 inches/125 cm.

The widest single engine cabin are found: In the TB9/10/20/21. According to specs the cabin is 50.3 inches / 128 cm wide.
 
Jim K said:
If you don't feel comfortable in a bonanza, you won't fit in a Mooney either. They're a little tighter than your Cherokee.
Click to expand...
Disagree. Mooney is as wide as a 182, so wider than the Cherokee.

It feels very similar to what a Cherokee would feel like if you moved the rudder pedals about a foot or two closer to the prop. As a tall guy, I can actually reach stuff on my panel in the Mooney.

FWIW, Al Mooney was 6'5" and he built an airplane he'd fit in. Mooney is GREAT for a lot of tall people.

Meanwhile, I bang my head on the top of the Bo/Baron because of the semicircular shape of the top of them. Mooneys, Comanches, etc are more square in their cross section so I don't have that problem.
 
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