Chemtrails

ScottM said:
Kinda of a timely topic in this thread.

I was just reading a book review this morning that looks very interesting. The name of the book is the 'Death and life of the great American school system: how testing and choice are undermining education.' It is by a Diane Ravitch is a respected scholar in the field. Her claim is that charter schools and standardized testing are destroying public education because charter schools strip off the best students from a school while standardized testing demands that all students be equally proficient as all subjects. She feels that it has turned teachers into nothing more than "test cramming and bean counting" employees.
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Ms Ravitch has been around awhile, and has some trenchant analysis.

But in this case I'm afraid she's oversimplified the case. certainly, in areas with overall poor schools and charter schools those left in the regular schools are logically not "charter" material.

But this begs the question -- is it the existence of Charter schools that causes poor overall performance, or are charter schools merely a response to bad education?

I'll contend it's the latter.
 
dmccormack said:
Ms Ravitch has been around awhile, and has some trenchant analysis.

But in this case I'm afraid she's oversimplified the case. certainly, in areas with overall poor schools and charter schools those left in the regular schools are logically not "charter" material.

But this begs the question -- is it the existence of Charter schools that causes poor overall performance, or are charter schools merely a response to bad education?

I'll contend it's the latter.
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So you have read the book? Do you still have it and would you be willing to share it via the book club.
 
ScottM said:
So you have read the book? Do you still have it and would you be willing to share it via the book club.
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Not her latest -- She published often in the late 80s when I was teaching and was a darling of the right (IIRC).

She championed the humanities in HS, and made a big splash with What Do Our 17-Year-Olds Know: A Report on the First National Assessment of History and Literature (which I read, as well as Schools we Deserve and something Crusade?)

I wasn't 100% sold then, and I'm still not, as I am not fond of industrial scale education institutions that focus on the center of the bell curve.
 
dmccormack said:
But this begs the question -- is it the existence of Charter schools that causes poor overall performance, or are charter schools merely a response to bad education?

I'll contend it's the latter.
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Having lived for a number of years in the Kansas City area, I'd agree wholeheartedly. The KC school system spent somewhere north of a billion dollars to create a magnet school system in response to a desegregation case, the idea being building outstanding facilities would attract the suburban kids to the city and resolve the busing issue, plus raise the test scores.

It failed miserably.

There's no substitute for parental involvement in education. I'd much rather have my kids in modular classrooms with good teachers and supportive parents than have them sitting in award-winning edifices without personal commitment from anyone involved.


Trapper John
 
dmccormack said:
Not her latest -- She published often in the late 80s when I was teaching and was a darling of the right (IIRC).

She championed the humanities in HS, and made a big splash with What Do Our 17-Year-Olds Know: A Report on the First National Assessment of History and Literature (which I read, as well as Schools we Deserve and something Crusade?)

I wasn't 100% sold then, and I'm still not, as I am not fond of industrial scale education institutions that focus on the center of the bell curve.
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Ah ok. I would caution against making a conclusion about her arguments from what I wrote. I just extracted a short sentence or two from a short review of her book. It was hardly her entire argument and thinking behind it.
 
ScottM said:
Ah ok. I would caution against making a conclusion about her arguments from what I wrote. I just extracted a short sentence or two from a short review of her book. It was hardly her entire argument and thinking behind it.
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Nope, wasn't commenting on her latest -- just her body of work to date.

:yesnod:
 
Seen over Roswell:

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Now, those who know me know that I am anything but a flaming liberal. And my wife, who is a 6th grade math teacher isn't noted for her liberal tendancies, either. But, let me give you my perspective as the husband of a teacher.

Public schools operate under a handicap that the private schools do not. They have to accept anybody. They don't have admission criteria. If a kid doesn't do something to get himself expelled, they have to keep him. Good student, bad student, somewhere in between student. They can't cherry pick. So the average is going to be a bit lower than you might like.

Parents are a key to good results. If they don't care, the kids often don't do well. This isn't a surprise to this bunch, but I thought I'd reiterate it. Parental involvement is key. And if a parent said they wanted to help in the classroom I suspect that my wife and her Principal (who is absolutely fabulous, we should all have bosses like her) would welcome the participation with open arms. Doesn't happen too often, if ever.

How does this school do? Some statewide award was just given out and they were one of two in our country (not district, county) who received it. People try to get into this elementary school. And teachers leave when they retire, or are forced to move by the district office. They don't voluntarily leave. Success is a powerful motivator, both for students and teachers.

Oh, and I don't think we appreciated teachers much when we were students, but watching what my wife puts up with sure makes me appreciate them today. Imagine being cooped up with 30 6th graders. I couldn't do it. You'd be reading about me on page 1 of the local paper, and it wouldn't be good. I know this, if you think kids look forward to summer vacation, you should see the teachers. And she sure is looking forward to spring break in another week and a week of kicking back on the beach in Cancun. So am I. :D
 
Ghery said:
Now, those who know me know that I am anything but a flaming liberal. And my wife, who is a 6th grade math teacher isn't noted for her liberal tendancies, either. But, let me give you my perspective as the husband of a teacher.
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Dedicated, effective teachers are all too rare, but have an enormous impact on all the students they teach, and we parents and former students appreciate them very much.

:yesnod:
 
Ghery said:
Now, those who know me know that I am anything but a flaming liberal. And my wife, who is a 6th grade math teacher isn't noted for her liberal tendancies, either. But, let me give you my perspective as the husband of a teacher.

Public schools operate under a handicap that the private schools do not. They have to accept anybody. They don't have admission criteria. If a kid doesn't do something to get himself expelled, they have to keep him. Good student, bad student, somewhere in between student. They can't cherry pick. So the average is going to be a bit lower than you might like.

Parents are a key to good results. If they don't care, the kids often don't do well. This isn't a surprise to this bunch, but I thought I'd reiterate it. Parental involvement is key. And if a parent said they wanted to help in the classroom I suspect that my wife and her Principal (who is absolutely fabulous, we should all have bosses like her) would welcome the participation with open arms. Doesn't happen too often, if ever.

How does this school do? Some statewide award was just given out and they were one of two in our country (not district, county) who received it. People try to get into this elementary school. And teachers leave when they retire, or are forced to move by the district office. They don't voluntarily leave. Success is a powerful motivator, both for students and teachers.

Oh, and I don't think we appreciated teachers much when we were students, but watching what my wife puts up with sure makes me appreciate them today. Imagine being cooped up with 30 6th graders. I couldn't do it. You'd be reading about me on page 1 of the local paper, and it wouldn't be good. I know this, if you think kids look forward to summer vacation, you should see the teachers. And she sure is looking forward to spring break in another week and a week of kicking back on the beach in Cancun. So am I. :D
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My mother taught for 35 years. When she started, the classroom was a place where the teacher was a demigod who taught the 3 R's with an iron fist and nobody complained about the disipline, grades, or if their kid got a note sent home.

By the end of her career, teachers were emasculated. They couldn't effectively punish kids. Parents didn't punish their kids at home for their school trangressions. In fact they often showed up at school raising heck that their kid was punished, that their kid got a bad grade, or that there was too much homework. Whatever the problem was, it wasn't their kids' fault - the teacher was to blame.

Add to that the excessive CYA paperwork teachers have to complete, and school went from a performance based system to a "Get 'em through 12 grades with a paper trail." system.

Essentially, the system is broken and the inmates are running it anyway.

As an additional factor, consider that the quality of teachers has slipped. Forty or fifty years back, relatively few women attended college. For those who did (who were presumably the best and brightest of their generation(s)), teaching was a premiere career. Business school, Med school, Law school, etc. were not (typically) viable career choices. In today's world, the best and brightest women have more choices and often excercise those choices by pursuing better paying and more rewarding careers.

In the end, you have a bad system being operated by individuals who are often less capable than their predecessors.

Which means a lot of people are not taught sufficient critical thinking skills to recognize a conspiracy.
 
kyleb said:
My mother taught for 35 years. When she started, the classroom was a place where the teacher was a demigod who taught the 3 R's with an iron fist and nobody complained about the disipline, grades, or if their kid got a note sent home.

By the end of her career, teachers were emasculated. They couldn't effectively punish kids. Parents didn't punish their kids at home for their school trangressions. In fact they often showed up at school raising heck that their kid was punished, that their kid got a bad grade, or that there was too much homework. Whatever the problem was, it wasn't their kids' fault - the teacher was to blame.

Add to that the excessive CYA paperwork teachers have to complete, and school went from a performance based system to a "Get 'em through 12 grades with a paper trail." system.

Essentially, the system is broken and the inmates are running it anyway.

As an additional factor, consider that the quality of teachers has slipped. Forty or fifty years back, relatively few women attended college. For those who did (who were presumably the best and brightest of their generation(s)), teaching was a premiere career. Business school, Med school, Law school, etc. were not (typically) viable career choices. In today's world, the best and brightest women have more choices and often excercise those choices by pursuing better paying and more rewarding careers.

In the end, you have a bad system being operated by individuals who are often less capable than their predecessors.

Which means a lot of people are not taught sufficient critical thinking skills to recognize a conspiracy.
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My wife has a BS in Horticulture, a Masters in Education and more additional post graduate credit than I can count. And her post graduate GPA is 4.0. What exactly was your point about teachers not being the best and the brightest?
 
Exocetid said:
No, planes are made to fly and that's what I do with mine. Not a hangar queen by any stretch of the imagination.
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Unless you're flying Looking Glass, airplanes spend more time parked than in the air.

I happen to like talking with fellow pilots and the local IA, so I stop by and we discuss airplanes and everything else that happens to slip into the conversation.

It's called "hangar flying" or "hangar talk."

You should try it.
 
dmccormack said:
Unless you're flying Looking Glass, airplanes spend more time parked than in the air.

I happen to like talking with fellow pilots and the local IA, so I stop by and we discuss airplanes and everything else that happens to slip into the conversation.

It's called "hangar flying" or "hangar talk."

You should try it.
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I would if my business was aviation like yours. I have other things to do to support my habit, you don't.
 
One of my really good friends from Middle/High School is huge on conspiracy theories, and has written many papers on Chemtrails and cloud seeding.

He's a good guy, just a bit misguided. Google "Brendan Bombaci Chemtrail" to see his work. Its interesting, if nothing else.
 
Ghery said:
My wife has a BS in Horticulture, a Masters in Education and more additional post graduate credit than I can count. And her post graduate GPA is 4.0. What exactly was your point about teachers not being the best and the brightest?
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My generalization didn't say there are no brilliant teachers. I simply pointed out that women's career choices have expanded, reducing the overall talent level in the teaching profession.

Your reaction is akin to someone posting that Chinese people are generally shorter than Americans, and someone else responding that Yao Ming is 7'+.

True on both counts, but one data point doesn't invalidate the generalization. ;-)
 
Exocetid said:
Sorry, I misunderstood your website. So you are not an aviation professional, my bad.
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I certainly am an aviation "professional." Flying doesn't have to be a sole source of income to be professional. IN the US, we define a professional as someone possessing certification based on objective standards and qualifications, training, expertise, ethics, and proven proficiency in a specific field.

Home page of my site states:

In my day job, I am a Senior Systems Engineer, developing training and logistics systems for the US Navy. As a Flight Instructor I get to share my love of flying while interacting with exceptional people who also share this joy.
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I think the chemtrail folks are reading just a little too much into what they are seeing. I was at the airport last year and one of the locals looked up and pointed at a set of contrails. He said "Looky there! A Polish cropduster!"

See how simple the real explanation is?
 
dmccormack said:
I certainly am an aviation "professional." Flying doesn't have to be a sole source of income to be professional. IN the US, we define a professional as someone possessing certification based on objective standards and qualifications, training, expertise, ethics, and proven proficiency in a specific field.

Home page of my site states:...
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Yes, and I have to say mea culpa for some of my earlier posts to you. I did not realize that this was a subforum named Hangar Talk in the Pilot's Lounge forum.

Like in the real case (real pilots sitting around real hangars), anything goes--enjoy!
 
kyleb said:
As an additional factor, consider that the quality of teachers has slipped. Forty or fifty years back, relatively few women attended college. For those who did (who were presumably the best and brightest of their generation(s)), teaching was a premiere career. Business school, Med school, Law school, etc. were not (typically) viable career choices. In today's world, the best and brightest women have more choices and often excercise those choices by pursuing better paying and more rewarding careers.
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You could come up with a different conclusion too. Now that there are other viable career choices for women maybe only the ones who truly want to go into teaching do so. Just because someone might be a brilliant business executive or engineer doesn't mean she would have been a good teacher of children.
 
Chemtrails are your friend. Without them, millions of conspiracy theorists would be lost and adrift in modern society.

SkyHog said:
One of my really good friends from Middle/High School is huge on conspiracy theories, and has written many papers on Chemtrails and cloud seeding.

He's a good guy, just a bit misguided. Google "Brendan Bombaci Chemtrail" to see his work. Its interesting, if nothing else.
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Lets not forget crop circles...
 
Oh and Flouridation of our drinking water. We must preserve the purity of our essence!
 
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