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falconkidding

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Falcon Kidding
Finally took the checkride today got up 6 am flew to where it was to be done. Went through all the paperwork logbooks etc stressful to sit there while dpe was checking but that went smoothly. Onto the oral part I think he went pretty easy cause I got a upper 90s on the written. Just the usualstuff like altitude(pressure density true etc) spent like 30 min on special vfr for some reason, went over stalls and what will change stall speed. I said flaps, bank angle, and weight. DPE said power to cause I missed that. I kicked butt of the sectional XC W/B stuff. Got a lot of excellent, good on feedback. None of the questions where out of the ordinary, i'd say sometimes the dpe would ask something in a way I hadn't heard before but overall i'd say solid on the oral. Which I was happy about cause its what I was worried about most. DPE says good now to go fly.

Go out to the plane begin preflight he ask what the antenna on the top is (radio) then he asked me what the fin on the bottom is.... And I just blank... something you go over your first flight and any other day i'd get it but not today. So being honest I said I'd have to look it up. DPE wasn't happy about that ask would you fly if it was broken off, I said no(not gonna fly if something idk is broken), DPE said why not. I said I'd have to look it up real quick.

and that was it checkride over :( Kind of surreal to realize you just failed. Its like the movies just a moment of stunned silence then walking back to the FBO mind screaming give me one more chance its the transponder antenna, radios up top navs in tail, elt behind seat, I'll explain every system on this plane i'm ready for the retest now. I know this stuff I swear. but theres nothing to do but that walk of shame behind the dpe.

Frustrating to be so close and just momentarily going pants on head retarded about something any other time would be no problem for you. O well whats done is done nothing to do but drop some more money and time, at least the 2nd one is only 300 bucks and as the dpe said we'll jsut have to hop in the plane and fly so no oral.

Lord willing I'll pass that one(oh the shame if I screw the 2nd one up)
 
Stuff happens..... don't dwell on it, continue on and don't have a brain fart next time.!!

Would have been nice if the dpe would have given you the choice to continue the ride so all you would have to do next time is remember the the stupid antenna...

Just take it easy for a couple days then get with your instructor to schedule the ride again, and just refresh everything, maybe a practice oral or two.
 
Sorry about that,relax do a couple of practice Orals and go again. Good luck
 
Zeldman said:
Stuff happens..... don't dwell on it, continue on and don't have a brain fart next time.!!

Would have been nice if the dpe would have given you the choice to continue the ride so all you would have to do next time is remember the the stupid antenna...

Just take it easy for a couple days then get with your instructor to schedule the ride again, and just refresh everything, maybe a practice oral or two.
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Yeah I wish I could have continued, but he seemed in a hurry. after i got my letter of discontinuance he was gone, left his flight bag in my airplane and everything.
 
I'm sorry to hear you had to go through this. Although it's not fun, remember that the DPE is making sure that you will in no way harm the friends and family you take up with you. This might seem like a minor thing, but knowing your aircraft inside out is really important and directly affects your ability as PIC. Fortunately, this is easy to fix, and a good amount of studying will pay off in the long run, since you'll never forget what some of these aircraft components are. :)
 
Thanks for the write up. I'm sure not a lot of people would have posted a failed ride on here. You'll get it next time. Move on and learn.
 
jordane93 said:
Thanks for the write up. I'm sure not a lot of people would have posted a failed ride on here. You'll get it next time. Move on and learn.
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Yeah i'm not to bothered about posting my failures. Just kind of a reminder to myself that just because you "know" your stuff sometimes the little things you you thought you knew you overlook in studying(not that going blank on transponder antenna is "little") but its one of those things you just glance over and mentally check yeah I got that.

Still embarrassing and frustrating, and I wish the DPE would have at least let me continue (i aced the oral(other than power changing stall speed) and everything else was good. Fail me thats fine I get it, but let me fly at least. If I was DPE I would have said "you have to know this stuff", teach a min and let em fly or at least offer. (maybe thats why i'll never be one)

Any body have any tips or ideas for the 2nd ride. I'm confident i can pass heck I think I could have passed 15 seconds after he said thats it and my brain fart cleared. :mad2: Is there any "gotcha" or potential failure points outside of the PTS stuff in the air. Something to check thats not typically on your walk around. i've gone over everything in my head walked arounnd plane with the instructor but ideas and tips are appreciated.
 
Hey, most of us have busted check rides at some point. Ain't no big deal, just get back and do it again. You'll do fine next time.

I also think the DPE was a little too strict. I've been asked on my check rides "Can you do repairs to spinners?", "how many VG's can be missing before you can't take off?". None of them I could answer, but he wasn't going to bust me for that. An antenna is in that same region of importance I think, not a huge deal. But hey, what do I know. Maybe that's an FAA emphasis subject or something and he couldn't let it slide per the book.
 
falconkidding said:
Yeah i'm not to bothered about posting my failures. Just kind of a reminder to myself that just because you "know" your stuff sometimes the little things you you thought you knew you overlook in studying(not that going blank on transponder antenna is "little") but its one of those things you just glance over and mentally check yeah I got that.

Still embarrassing and frustrating, and I wish the DPE would have at least let me continue (i aced the oral(other than power changing stall speed) and everything else was good. Fail me thats fine I get it, but let me fly at least. If I was DPE I would have said "you have to know this stuff", teach a min and let em fly or at least offer. (maybe thats why i'll never be one)

Any body have any tips or ideas for the 2nd ride. I'm confident i can pass heck I think I could have passed 15 seconds after he said thats it and my brain fart cleared. :mad2: Is there any "gotcha" or potential failure points outside of the PTS stuff in the air. Something to check thats not typically on your walk around. i've gone over everything in my head walked arounnd plane with the instructor but ideas and tips are appreciated.
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I think the most important thing that I was warned about with my particular DPE is that he expected safety to be the number one priority. I feel rather fortunate...I went in and passed my exam but the guy after me failed his oral twice in a row. I think more than little bits of memorized information, the DPE wants to see you applying everything you learned so that you're really acting like a PIC.

Be thorough with your checklists and be ready for the DPE to try to distract you. They'll either talk on and on while checking to see if your assigned altitude if fluctuating or they'll become slightly mean to see if you let them step over you. The DPE wants to see that you'll exercise a PIC attitude, insisting that you're making the decisions for a safe outcome.

I can see why he would have flipped out about something like this - if you had a transponder that was broken and you were trying to fly through class B or something, that's a potentially dangerous situation. If your airport is within the Mode C veil of a class B, then you're in real trouble.

Also, depending on the DPE, some of them like to dig deeper if they find some knowledge missing and according to the DPE I had, the FAA is really cracking down on the knowledge regardless of test scores. If the DPE is particularly sensitive, a lack of awareness about something directly related to the safe operation of an aircraft can make them feel uncomfortable about flying. While they can give you a second chance in the air, the responsibility they have for your own safety for the rest of your life is extreme. Better safe than sorry.

You'll be fine! Just know your airplane and know your failure situations (alternator failure, dead magnetos, engine fires, radio failures) and how to troubleshoot them in the air.
 
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falconkidding said:
Any body have any tips or ideas for the 2nd ride. I'm confident i can pass heck I think I could have passed 15 seconds after he said thats it and my brain fart cleared. :mad2: Is there any "gotcha" or potential failure points outside of the PTS stuff in the air.
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Where are you located? There are DPEs I know who will fail you if they dislike you personally or you've switched away from their flight school.
 
Kudos to you for facing disappointment like a true pilot. Your victory will be that much sweeter.
 
Seems a little strict IMO. Hope you nail it on the next run.
 
I'm sorry to hear that your dpe failed you on such a small point - most dpe's, I think, would have given you a chance to look in your poh for a few minutes. I too failed an ATP SEL flight check after having aced the oral. As soon as I started the engine I had this sinking feeling in my gut that this wasn't my day -- and the self-fulfilling prophesy came true. Have a PMA (positive mental attitude), don't dwell on the bust and regain your PIC attitude -- you are the master of the a/c. Good luck on the next ride.
 
I'm gonna disagree here.

"I'm not going to fly with that broken because I don't know what it is" is a reasonable response for a private pilot. That doesn't warrant a failure by itself, and it's stretching the PTS to find anything about transponder hardware.

That is, if it is indeed the only issue.

A better answer would probably be to test all the radios except the ELT, to figure it out. Not sure where you would look it up. There is no "antennas" section in the POH.
 
I would of told him I don't know where your bag is, and kept it as a souvenir and found a different DPE.

Sounds like a jerk.
 
Yeah that does seem a little harsh. I was fortunate (?) enough to have transponder issues as a student and had another pilot explain to me early on what was where and help me troubleshoot these issues in the field.

Get back at it. You'll do great next time, and you'll kill system questions. You're not the only pilot who messed up system questions. I know I did, but I had a DPE who was kind enough to look at me crosseyed and give me a small hint.
 
MAKG1 said:
I'm gonna disagree here.
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I agree with your disagreement. Almost seems like some kind of shenanigans were going. I would of answered it the same way.

Good luck on your next checkride, he sounds like a real treat to fly with.
 
Sorry to hear about that. Something like that is probably my worst fear for my check ride. I had just brought this same thing up with my CFI last lesson that I want to go over all the systems on the plane again like what runs what and antennas, etc. I've heard of others having to answer these questions but you're the first I've heard getting a discontinuance for not knowing.
 
I agree that failing you was harsh.

To me you did the SAFE thing. A pilot is not going to know
everything. The most important statement you made was that you
would not fly the aircraft with a part broken. That is the SAFE thing
to do. I don't understand why he would fail you for doing something
safe.

Given that, what's done is done and the best thing you can do is
put it behind you and move forward. Your instructor would not
have recommended you for your checkride if he/she did not
feel you were prepared.

Good luck on your retest!

Victor
 
48dodge said:
Sorry to hear about that. Something like that is probably my worst fear for my check ride. I had just brought this same thing up with my CFI last lesson that I want to go over all the systems on the plane again like what runs what and antennas, etc. I've heard of others having to answer these questions but you're the first I've heard getting a discontinuance for not knowing.
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For my checkride, my CFI made sure that I knew every physical component on the C172 and how it works. Things like antennas (since they're not in the POH), weights on ailerons/elevators, what the shimmy damper does, what's the size and maker of the propeller, all give a DPE confidence that you know what you're doing if they decide to ask you. Even understanding why the ailerons have a higher angle of attack on one side compared to the other is important (on a C172 at least).

Unfortunately, none of us can know what any particular DPE deems to be go/no-go missteps on information. While they do need to adhere to the PTS, they also are there because the FAA knows they'll use whatever judgement necessary to ensure the applicant is worthy of the certificate they seek. DPE's don't want to have any doubt in their mind because it might lead to injury or worse for the applicant, their family, other pilots, or innocent folks on the ground. It's a big responsibility, so I respect the challenge of their job.
 
falconkidding said:
So being honest I said I'd have to look it up. DPE wasn't happy about that ask would you fly if it was broken off, I said no(not gonna fly if something idk is broken), DPE said why not. I said I'd have to look it up real quick.
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Didn't see this before. Your first response (what is it) was OK, if not great. Your third response (why wouldn't you fly with an external part broken off) is what killed your checkride.

If something is broken on the outside, the 1st question in your mind shouldn't be "is it legal to fly like that?", it should be "what happened to the plane, how long ago, and has an A&P looked at it since?"
 
warthog1984 said:
Didn't see this before. Your first response (what is it) was OK, if not great. Your third response (why wouldn't you fly with an external part broken off) is what killed your checkride.

If something is broken on the outside, the 1st question in your mind shouldn't be "is it legal to fly like that?", it should be "what happened to the plane, how long ago, and has an A&P looked at it since?"
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With you on that.
 
What a bizarre dpe. If you didn't know what the thing was (off the top of your head), what is even the point of asking a followup question regarding that thing? Being it was a PPL check-off, it would have been so much more beneficial to go over a couple of the other exterior things and see if the transponder fin ended up ringing a bell. Everyone is stressed on check-rides for one thing, and the whole process should not be just a "quiz" session, but a learning opportunity as well. Best of luck on your 2nd go!
 
warthog1984 said:
Didn't see this before. Your first response (what is it) was OK, if not great. Your third response (why wouldn't you fly with an external part broken off) is what killed your checkride.

If something is broken on the outside, the 1st question in your mind shouldn't be "is it legal to fly like that?", it should be "what happened to the plane, how long ago, and has an A&P looked at it since?"
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Afraid I don't agree here either.

Antennas occasionally fall off for reasons unrelated to the mechanical condition of the aircraft. It's kinda difficult to whang an antenna without whanging something else more important. For a transponder antenna, something would have had to go through the prop.

I agree that flying without identifying the broken part is somewhat unwise and can be illegal (this one certainly is within 30 miles of a Class B airport, or inside any Class C without prior arrangement). But essential to have an A&P look at it? No. It's entirely reasonable and legal to identify the transponder is broken, then phone the relevant towers and arrange a ferry to the avionics shop to have it fixed (no ferry permit is required because it's not an airworthiness issue, but that's a real good excuse to ask the tower to let you in anyway).

Part of flying is knowing what's important and what isn't. You don't ground an aircraft because there is a rip in the upholstery, unless it somehow makes the aircraft unflyable. You might because of unexplained fuel stains on the asphalt below a sump drain with evidence of fuel having dripped out the flap gap (BTDT, found out later it was old, and due to Mx work on the tank, so it was actually fine to fly). You also don't ground an aircraft because one of two radios is inop, or if the DME is inop (but to be legal, they do have to be disabled and placarded) unless you are going to fly an approach that requires DME and there is no alternative.

Having said that, I really doubt the failure was only due to that one question, though it might have been the last problem. If it was, the DPE is a doofus. The instructor in question should have a debrief to explain it, and that lesson can be quite valuable.
 
MAKG1 said:
Afraid I don't agree here either.

Antennas occasionally fall off for reasons unrelated to the mechanical condition of the aircraft. It's kinda difficult to whang an antenna without whanging something else more important. For a transponder antenna, something would have had to go through the prop.
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Exactly. In this case, the important question is "why did an external part come off the plane". If (as the DPE seemed to be asking), it was snapped/broken off, then there absolutely has to be some sort of semi-intensive inspection to figure out WHY. If it's something that was deemed airworthy at annual, that's one thing. If CFI Jim-Bob looked at it and went "Yeah, me and Cletus wacked the tail on the last flight. You can't see the scrapes on the elevator, though", that's something else.
 
falconkidding said:
Yeah I wish I could have continued, but he seemed in a hurry. after i got my letter of discontinuance he was gone, left his flight bag in my airplane and everything.
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Sounds strange to me. Did he actually give you a Letter of Discontinuance, and not a Notice of Disapproval? If so, my understanding is that you did not fail the checkride, but that the checkride was stopped for reasons other than your performance. How could the DPE have been in a hurry to get out of there when he was expecting to maybe have several hours of checkride to administer? :dunno:
 
The examiner disapproved you because you did not have 91.213(d) memorized and said you'd go look it up and do what it said? That seems a bit harsh to me. However, fi the issue was that you didn't know which antenna was which, I can understand that, since you can't use the 91.213(d) process without knowing which system was affected.
 
Ron Levy said:
The examiner disapproved you because you did not have 91.213(d) memorized and said you'd go look it up and do what it said? That seems a bit harsh to me. However, fi the issue was that you didn't know which antenna was which, I can understand that, since you can't use the 91.213(d) process without knowing which system was affected.
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Henning, which antennas are required for day VFR for a 172, under 91.213(d) et ref.?

The only electrical equipment I see is the anticollision lighting system, which has no antenna.

Intended operation may be a problem, particularly in or near Class C, but that's not a 91.213 problem. Same deal with the ELT. A check ride is not training, so the 50 nm exclusion doesn't apply. But that's not 91.213(d) either.
 
Thank you for the kind words people. Just reflecting back on it(for like 2000hours) I think that outside of not knowing what i should have perhaps I just came across wrong. I mean he did give me a 2nd chance to get it right perhaps my meek and apologetic i'm drawing a blank just came across as o well don't care.
I have a laundry list of complaints about the guy but none of them are about why I failed(gotta know the plane) still frustrating to be knocking everything out and fail cause you blanked but live and learn. Hard call to make to your cfi and be like well I busted the ride... Cause i went dumb on the transponder antenna :/

To answer someones earlier statement it was a disapproval(I put discontinue on accident earlier) comments on form state applicant not familiar with external features/equipment on exterior of plane. Idk if he was in a hurry or not but he just handed me my form said call me when you want to reschedule we'll jsut have to fly and it will only be $250 for retest and was out the door. I went out to the plane got his stuff brought it back someone said he left so I just left it at the office.:dunno:
 
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Was it only the one antenna, or were there other issues? Some of the exterior features can be pretty important and definite airworthiness issues, like the static port.
 
MAKG1 said:
Was it only the one antenna, or were there other issues? Some of the exterior features can be pretty important and definite airworthiness issues, like the static port.
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No other issues we probably only got 2 min of preflight.

Master on lower flaps (all the way cause someone said he busted someone for not doing that) get out checklist in hand go towards tail to begin preflight. DPE says whats these (beckons towards the antenna's up top) I say the antennas (advice prior to checkride was always just answer what was asked) DPE says I know but to what, I say for the nav and radio. He kinda looks at me a second yeah but which is which. Tell him radios over the wing navs in the tail. Then comes the question I busted on about the transponder antenna underneath the front.

I may have just come across as not knowing jack cause I kept my answers brief and narrowly focused so maybe he felt I didnt know enough and my choking on the transponder antenna was enough to call it quits.

Kinda wish he would have saved the transponder for last cause maybe getting everything else I would have A. not gone pants on head retarded B. might have been given a break for getting everything else. :( :dunno:
 
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The more I think about it, this DPE sounds like he felt you didn't understand your aircraft enough to properly implement 91.213 in case of equipment failure. Just study up on all of your aircraft components and the FAR's pertaining to MEL, equipment lists in the POH, and your standard ATOMATO FLAMES/FLAPS for Day and Night VFR and you shouldn't have an issue in your next go around (no pun intended).
 
Sounds to me like the DPE had somewhere to be and was looking for an excuse to get out of there. Especially if he gave you a letter of discontinuance with no discussion. But that's just based on what you're telling us.
 
Lindberg said:
Sounds to me like the DPE had somewhere to be and was looking for an excuse to get out of there. Especially if he gave you a letter of discontinuance with no discussion. But that's just based on what you're telling us.
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I was thinking it sounds like that too. And leaving his bag behind as he flies out the door is not helping my trust in this DPE....
 
falconkidding said:
Thank you for the kind words people. Just reflecting back on it(for like 2000hours) I think that outside of not knowing what i should have perhaps I just came across wrong. I mean he did give me a 2nd chance to get it right perhaps my meek and apologetic i'm drawing a blank just came across as o well don't care.
I have a laundry list of complaints about the guy but none of them are about why I failed(gotta know the plane) still frustrating to be knocking everything out and fail cause you blanked but live and learn. Hard call to make to your cfi and be like well I busted the ride... Cause i went dumb on the transponder antenna :/

To answer someones earlier statement it was a disapproval(I put discontinue on accident earlier) comments on form state applicant not familiar with external features/equipment on exterior of plane. Idk if he was in a hurry or not but he just handed me my form said call me when you want to reschedule we'll jsut have to fly and it will only be $250 for retest and was out the door. I went out to the plane got his stuff brought it back someone said he left so I just left it at the office.:dunno:
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No debreif, forgot his stuff in the plane :rolleyes:

Did you pay by check or cash.

I'd cancel the check.

I agree with the others sounds like he had somewhere "more important" to be than your checkride.
 
Finish with a new DPE if you feel confident about passing the oral again. What airport or state are you flying out of? I was under the impression the DPE would give you the option to continue if it wasn't a major mistake.

Good luck and post a follow up!
 
dpe seemed he was in a hurry and saw an easy way out on your failure to name the antenna. i dont know if i would used him again.
 
I've gotta say man, I've been in your exact shoes. My CFI (excellent stick, but severely lacking on the ground) never thought it would be a good idea to have me learn what antennas did what, so I ended up guessing (wrongly) :rolleyes: However, he just set me straight and we continued, I was fairly sharp otherwise.



But I know how it feels to bust a ride for a brain fart. I busted my CPL ride because I forgot to announce my clearing turn before I did it, even though I remembered halfway through and announced the area was clear afterward. Then they took me through all of the maneuvers and didnt give me credit for any of them, and I had to repeat all of them on the retest :mad2:
 
Sounds like the DPE was out to get you. Honestly, Antenas are there and any Pilot should check them during a pre-flight but to say that he failed you cause you could not identify which antena did what is, in my opinion, crazy.

I do think that you would have been allowed to continue if, instead of saying you would look it up, if you instead would have said, " If something ever appears broken in or on my airplane my first response will be to get a mechanic here to take a look." The DPE may have worried that if you looked it up and the POH said what it was( doubt it would honestly) then you may have been content knowing what the antena did but still may decide to fly with something broken, thus making you in violation and, in fact if it is in the mode c veil, you then are violating regulations.

Tough one honestly- go get em next time! If he is charging you 250 dollars for a re-test I'd have some serious issues. I thought they were not allowed to do that? Man this story makes me appreciate my DPE even more. He is a great guy who was incredibly fair! If you are in the NY area PM me and I'll give you his name!
 
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