checkride today

[MAKG1]

What antennas are required for airworthiness?

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

I think expecting a private pilot student to know what each antenna is connected to is silly. You don't need to know. You just need to recognize it is present and not damaged.

If the plane had a transponder, DME, ADS-B, TIS, etc etc, there could be 3-5 identical looking antennas on the belly. No pilot could or would know what each one is on a plane they don't own. And even a plane they own, many still wouldn't and don't need to know. Just like you don't know which of the two com antennas on the roof is com 1 and com 2. You could have two GPS antennas. Which is which? No way to know and no reason to know.

If his reason for failing you was that you didn't know the name of the antenna, I think you need a new DPE. Especially given his "i want to leave now" attitude.

 

[RotorAndWing]

What antennas are required for airworthiness?

I think expecting a private pilot student to know what each antenna is connected to is silly. You don't need to know. You just need to recognize it is present and not damaged.

If the plane had a transponder, DME, ADS-B, TIS, etc etc, there could be 3-5 identical looking antennas on the belly. No pilot could or would know what each one is on a plane they don't own. And even a plane they own, many still wouldn't and don't need to know. Just like you don't know which of the two com antennas on the roof is com 1 and com 2. You could have two GPS antennas. Which is which? No way to know and no reason to know.

If his reason for failing you was that you didn't know the name of the antenna, I think you need a new DPE. Especially given his "i want to leave now" attitude.

A private pilot should know what antennas are for what radios. A broken Transponder antenna would be a no go item in certain airspace.

Also, recognizing a broke item, as well as what to do is also required knowledge.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

The transponder, DME, ADS-B, and TIS antennas all look alike. With diversity receivers, you might even have a few identical looking ones on the top too. They're not labeled. And there is no requirement for such. Please explain how anyone other than the avionics tech that installed the equipment could possibly know which is which. Then explain how the DPE could possibly know in order to tell the student they're wrong.

Recognizing there is a problem that requires further investigation does not require knowing the intricate details of the problem. An antenna is broken is all anyone can be expected to know. There is no way to know any further without taking apart the interior to access the coax.

 

[MikeELP]

To the OP...sorry you had a little set-back, but you seem to have a great attitude - push onward and complete the test on the next meeting.

That said...I always tell the students that I prep for checkride that the "oral exam" does not end when you head out to the airplane. It's an on-going process throughout the test. Very easy to get your mind set on flying the airplane and easily blowing otherwise easy questions.

Hang in there!!!

 

[jordane93]

The transponder, DME, ADS-B, and TIS antennas all look alike. With diversity receivers, you might even have a few identical looking ones on the top too. They're not labeled. And there is no requirement for such. Please explain how anyone other than the avionics tech that installed the equipment could possibly know which is which. Then explain how the DPE could possibly know in order to tell the student they're wrong.

Recognizing there is a problem that requires further investigation does not require knowing the intricate details of the problem. An antenna is broken is all anyone can be expected to know. There is no way to know any further without taking apart the interior to access the coax.

You should know what your comm, VOR, etc antennas are.

 

[ChrisK]

The transponder, DME, ADS-B, and TIS antennas all look alike. With diversity receivers, you might even have a few identical looking ones on the top too. They're not labeled. And there is no requirement for such. Please explain how anyone other than the avionics tech that installed the equipment could possibly know which is which. Then explain how the DPE could possibly know in order to tell the student they're wrong.

Recognizing there is a problem that requires further investigation does not require knowing the intricate details of the problem. An antenna is broken is all anyone can be expected to know. There is no way to know any further without taking apart the interior to access the coax.

Not to mention the number of times I've departed into the Mode C veil only to discover that my transponder signal was not being received by approach. Heck, once I even crossed into Canada primary only (but still under positive control). Fine, departing with a knowingly faulty transponder into airspace which requires it without prior coordination is illegal; however, departing with a faulty transponder or associated system without knowing it happens every darn day. I'm not going so far as to say it isn't a big deal, but legality seems to favor the pilot's best information and knowledge as far as the functionality of the systems.

I am required to know how to use all of the equipment in my aircraft during a checkride. I am required to know enough to detect and react to faults. I just don't understand the idea that I'm required to know which antenna is which on every aircraft I rent. I can see how this information would be helpful, but I can't see how this information would be necessary. Maybe this makes me a danger to fly with or around. I don't know. I'd fly with me.

 

[MAKG1]

It's not like it's hard to test a transponder for functionality.

Set it to ALT or ON, watch the little interrogation light go on episodically.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

You should know what your comm, VOR, etc antennas are.

Which one is com 1? Which one is com 2? What if you had an old Loran? Now you have three identical com looking antennas on the roof. No way to know which is which. The VOR and ADF antennas are the only ones which are positively identifiable. All the others are assumptions, which is far more dangerous than asking.

It's not like it's hard to test a transponder for functionality. Set it to ALT or ON, watch the little interrogation light go on episodically.

Sure, if there is radar coverage down to the ground at the ramp.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Which one is com 1? Which one is com 2? What if you had an old Loran? Now you have three identical com looking antennas on the roof. No way to know which is which. The VOR and ADF antennas are the only ones which are positively identifiable. All the others are assumptions, which is far more dangerous than asking.
.

Some are trying to play lawyer here.

If you have a broke antenna, you have a problem. Can a private pilot initiate the flight with a known broke item?

Transponder and DME use the same type antenna. A pilot sees a broke antenna, now he must determine if it's transponder or DME. Can the pilot inop the broke system and initiate the flight?

 

[jcepiano]

I was watching one of those DPE seminars on the PPL checkride, and he discussed a situation like this. The answer that he wanted to hear was that the applicant would consult a mechanic and not assume that they could figure out whether system X or Y would be legal to fly. Again, the critical thing is, every DPE has things they want to hear, and I think it's good to speak to other folks that have received checkrides from the DPE to find out what those sensitive issues are.

 

[MAKG1]

If you have a broke antenna, you have a problem. Can a private pilot initiate the flight with a known broke item?

Yes. Disable and placard inop unless it is a required airworthiness item. Pulling and clipping the CB ought to be enough. 14 CFR 91.213(d)(4) explicitly allows a rated pilot to do that. Failing that, a mechanic can easily remove the unit from the panel tray.

All airspace that requires a transponder can be entered by asking for it, at any time. 14 CFR 91.215(d)(2). It is not required to fly it somewhere to get it repaired right now.

Virtually all the aircraft around here that have DME units have them placarded inop.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Yes. Disable and placard inop unless it is a required airworthiness item. Pulling and clipping the CB ought to be enough. 14 CFR 91.213(d)(4) explicitly allows a rated pilot to do that.

What else must be done?

All airspace that requires a transponder can be entered by asking for it, at any time. 14 CFR 91.215(d)(2). It is not required to fly it somewhere to get it repaired right now.

So you would launch into say a Class B with a known inop transponder?

Virtually all the aircraft around here that have DME units have them placarded inop.

And that has what to do with the discussion??

 

[MAKG1]

What else must be done?

Gotta put it in the logbook.

So you would launch into say a Class B with a known inop transponder?

With permission, yes. Which you always need for Class B. For crossing KSFO, you won't see any jet traffic if you pass close to the 10 numbers (across the highway as the clearance usually restricts) at 3500.

I would expect that Approach would give a "remain clear of Class B" given the history of the Cerritos midair. Not a problem unless the destination airport is inside Class B or VFR requires a transition (it happens sometimes). But if they are willing to clear me in and take altitude reports (or, more likely, restrict altitude), I can avoid the 747s.

I'd expect them to have a bigger problem below the floor of Class B than inside it, but I'd be talking to Approach regardless.

And that has what to do with the discussion??

You asked if a private pilot could fly with known broken equipment. It is done by almost every local airplane with a DME unit, every time it is flown. The transponder is not the only potentially broken piece of equipment, just the example at hand.

 

[RotorAndWing]

With permission, yes. Which you always need for Class B. For crossing KSFO, you won't see any jet traffic if you pass close to the 10 numbers (across the highway as the clearance usually restricts) at 3500.

I would expect that Approach would give a "remain clear of Class B" given the history of the Cerritos midair. Not a problem unless the destination airport is inside Class B or VFR requires a transition (it happens sometimes). But if they are willing to clear me in and take altitude reports (or, more likely, restrict altitude), I can avoid the 747s.

I'd expect them to have a bigger problem below the floor of Class B than inside it, but I'd be talking to Approach regardless.

All fine and dandy, but we are talking about a check ride for a private pilot here.

So if this was you on the checkride, and the transponder antenna was broke, and you couldn't identify which antenna it is, nor could you explain to the examiner what the procedure should be at this point, you would expect the examiner to let you continue? Really?

 

[MAKG1]

All fine and dandy, but we are talking about a check ride for a private pilot here.

So if this was you on the checkride, and the transponder antenna was broke, and you couldn't identify which antenna it is, nor could you explain to the examiner what the procedure should be at this point, you would expect the examiner to let you continue? Really?

We're talking about a check ride where the applicant did exactly what you're getting at, and got failed anyway.

But, that's not at all what you asked. You asked if a private pilot -- not a check ride applicant -- could fly with known broken equipment. Yes, he can with the correct procedures.

 

[RotorAndWing]

We're talking about a check ride where the applicant did exactly what you're getting at, and got failed anyway.

Uh, no, read below.

Go out to the plane begin preflight he ask what the antenna on the top is (radio) then he asked me what the fin on the bottom is.... And I just blank... something you go over your first flight and any other day i'd get it but not today. So being honest I said I'd have to look it up. DPE wasn't happy about that ask would you fly if it was broken off, I said no(not gonna fly if something idk is broken), DPE said why not. I said I'd have to look it up real quick.

Seems to me the applicant was unsure and wanted to "look it up real quick".

I've been an examiner, and quite frankly I don't think the problem here is with the DPE.

But, that's not at all what you asked. You asked if a private pilot -- not a check ride applicant -- could fly with known broken equipment. Yes, he can with the correct procedures.

And our applicant in this thread didn't know the correct procedures, yet you believe he should have been given a pass.

 

[mtuomi]

Could it be possible, that the DPE during the oral part found out, that OP had some weaknesses in the airplane systems, and not knowing what the xpdr antenna was, was simply the last straw to say no, we need to do this again?

 

[RotorAndWing]

Could it be possible, that the DPE during the oral part found out, that OP had some weaknesses in the airplane systems, and not knowing what the xpdr antenna was, was simply the last straw to say no, we need to do this again?

Ding ding ding!!!! We have a winner!

 

[MAKG1]

And our applicant in this thread didn't know the correct procedures, yet you believe he should have been given a pass.

You're reading that in.

I do think the response was a bit harsh, especially with no debrief. But that's well short of thinking "it's fine." I also think that looking up one or a few things prior to flight is reasonable if one is unsure. No private pilot knows everything. An obvious line there is that once already in flight, if a lookup is not feasible (say for spin recovery or another emergency), it's no good. But we can all look up 91.205, 91.213, and 91.215 prior to taking off if we feel the need. Obviously, within reason; we can't go look up every VFR flight rule.

You will find some speculation in my earlier posts that perhaps something else had happened as well. That can make a massive difference. The basic question is, is the applicant a safe pilot, and weakness in knowledge can mean "no."

 

[James331]

Ok, so if this broken antenna had happened in the wild, the applicant would have not flown, contacted a AP and researched it.

What's the problem?

His research, or for sure the AP, would have found it to be the transponder, removed and replaced, or removed and placarded the plane for the busted antenna.

 

[falconkidding]

Again appreciate the positive sentiments and understanding comments. As well as agreeing with those that point out how important it is to know your plane and understanding why dpe failed me.

Of course it wouldn't be the internet without some speculation and differing opinions I probably shouldn't have speculated as much as I have maybe the dpe just left to get something out of his car, and honestly forgot his stuff in the plane. Maybe my quiet personality came across as unsure and that very awkward 90 seconds put it over the edge,who knows. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. So will further refrain from any more speculation on dpe Well till the 2nd ride at least lol.

I will say though nothing on the oral sank me. Outside of forgetting power affects stall speed the other stuff I missed was minor. Like would atc know if f15s or 16s were on this MTR (pointing to a below 1500 one) I said no thinking they can't see that low (nearest atc facility 50+miles away) He said of course they'd know (he meant operation on the MTR I was thinking actual location on it) Just a few items like that. Being honest judging from past interviews and exams for various things I'd probably give myself a 90(just depends how much you wanna take off for the stall speed thing).
... of course this is the internet and theres 2 sides to each story but I will say I'm not a butthurt applicant looking to disparage anybody or "exaggerate" anything.


EDIT: 2 any protocol for scheduling a 2nd ride? Like an appropriate wait time, I've pounded the books, and reviewed over and over in my head but is it too soon?

 

[MAKG1]

Despite all the wild guessing here about what happened, your best bet is to discuss it in detail with your instructor. That's the one guy who knows all the personalities involved, and he should have gotten the run-down from the DPE. I'd be pretty ticked if he didn't, but if that's there, you can fix it.

 

[jspilot]

I was watching one of those DPE seminars on the PPL checkride, and he discussed a situation like this. The answer that he wanted to hear was that the applicant would consult a mechanic and not assume that they could figure out whether system X or Y would be legal to fly. Again, the critical thing is, every DPE has things they want to hear, and I think it's good to speak to other folks that have received checkrides from the DPE to find out what those sensitive issues are.

This is my point in my previous post. In the real world( non checkride once you have your PPL, the best thing to do is get a mechanic involved without trying to fix it yourself. That's just common sense. Who knows why the DPE failed the OP in the first place but, if I had been the DPE I may be very hesitant to continue a checkride with someone who did not really take into consideration the common sense response-- get a mechanic.

I'm curious to read how this situation plays out and to read if the OP gets any more information about why he failed.

 

[HouTxPilot82]

Glad to see you are keeping your head up. All the best on your upcoming checkride!

 

[eman1200]

sorry about the busted checkride, but really, everyone should know that the fin underneath the plane is connected to the flux capacitor, which is required if you're going to carry passengers during the day.

you'll do fine next time now that you have the correct information!

 

[MAKG1]

sorry about the busted checkride, but really, everyone should know that the fin underneath the plane is connected to the flux capacitor, which is required if you're going to carry passengers during the day.

Those of us who fly 172s and 182s start off almost all our trips by accelerating to 88 MPH (75 KIAS). It sucks when the flux capacitor doesn't work. Then you have to get your airplane struck by lightning.

I prefer the oscillation overthruster, though.

 

[MikeELP]

sorry about the busted checkride, but really, everyone should know that the fin underneath the plane is connected to the flux capacitor, which is required if you're going to carry passengers during the day.

you'll do fine next time now that you have the correct information!

And I always thought that fin was for the cloaking device!


Mike