Checklist? (And forgive me if this has been covered)

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Tracey

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tracey
I'm sure this has been asked before (although I just did a search and didn't come up with a thread).

My question is: Do you always use a checklist-- not for pre-flight and run-up, but for cruise & pre-descent (and not just GUMPS, but pullilng out the actual checklist and going over it).

... and thanks for your input!
 
Tracey said:
I'm sure this has been asked before (although I just did a search and didn't come up with a thread).

My question is: Do you always use a checklist-- not for pre-flight and run-up, but for cruise & pre-descent (and not just GUMPS, but pullilng out the actual checklist and going over it).

... and thanks for your input!
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For preflight and run-up I stick to the checklist. For normal ops, the rest is best put to rote, IMHO.
 
FlySince9 said:
For preflight and run-up I stick to the checklist. For normal ops, the rest is best put to rote, IMHO.
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I'd ask the same question that I just asked David then-- have you ever missed anything because of that? Or are your flows very thorough?

I'm not confident enough to rely on flow, but I always wonder what others do.
 
Tracey said:
I'd ask the same question that I just asked David then-- have you ever missed anything because of that? Or are your flows very thorough?

I'm not confident enough to rely on flow, but I always wonder what others do.
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If I was flying something more complex than my skyhawk, I might change my ways, but to answer your question, no, I have "never" missed anything. :confused:
 
FlySince9 said:
If I was flying something more complex than my skyhawk, I might change my ways, but to answer your question, no, I have "never" missed anything. :confused:
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You have a confused emoticon at the end, so I'll explain... I've heard many stories of people forgetting to enrichen the mixture on descent, or to put the carb heat back in. Just seems like a checklist would help catch that, but maybe if you have enough hours and confidence in your flow, you'd catch these things anyway.

Im really just curious if you all pull out the checklist everytime you're in cruise, for example. Or everytime you begin a descent, but it doesn't sound like it!
 
No, I've never missed anything. Even when I was flying the 210 I used GUMPS, not a real checklist for cruise and descent. Starting the 210 I NEEDED a checklist though. That thing was a beast.
 
I never pull the carb heat out for descent, I leave it in cruise power. I payed to get up there so I'm going to get some extra speed on the downhill.
 
Tracey, this is going to depend on the plane and the situation. If you are a student or perhaps a new PP flying rental aircraft than many fly you might want to use an actual check list for even a simple plane. The other end of that spectrum might be something like I fly. If you went strictly by the POH you would have to start an hour before the expected arrival of the boss. I use a modified check list that has items for first flight of the day then a abbreviated list for additional legs. Climb, enroute, descent is so straightforward that a glance at the few important items just to make sure you did not forget anything. The two things I find easy to miss is the altimeter through 18,000 feet and lowereing the cabin altitude on descent. Not exactly life threatning but, needs to be done.
So, each pilot will have his proceedure, depending on make and model of plane, do you fly just this plane and what kind of flying you are doing. If I am taking off into low cielings, perhaps expecting some ice, my preflight will be a little more intense and my looking at a check list might be a little more frequent.
Good question, if you are a student follow what your instructor says. When you get on your own you will adapt and work out what is best for you.
 
Tracey said:
You have a confused emoticon at the end, so I'll explain... I've heard many stories of people forgetting to enrichen the mixture on descent, or to put the carb heat back in. Just seems like a checklist would help catch that, but maybe if you have enough hours and confidence in your flow, you'd catch these things anyway.

Im really just curious if you all pull out the checklist everytime you're in cruise, for example. Or everytime you begin a descent, but it doesn't sound like it!
Click to expand...

The confused emoticon is because I don't want to swear that I've "never" missed anything. In my mind some things are forever connected. When I adjust the throttle, checking the position of the mixture and the carb-heat are a natural part of (and connected to the action) of making a throttle adjustment.
 
Tracey said:
I'm sure this has been asked before (although I just did a search and didn't come up with a thread).

My question is: Do you always use a checklist-- not for pre-flight and run-up, but for cruise & pre-descent (and not just GUMPS, but pullilng out the actual checklist and going over it).

... and thanks for your input!
Click to expand...

No, I do not. A check list is not a do list anyway. The way GA uses checklists isn't that hot. Check lists are meant to be a challenge reference to the flow you have performed from memory. ALL emergency check lists should be committed to memory as well. GA doesn't have subdirectories like more complex jets will.
As for operational checklists, if you haven't got them to rote by 50 hrs in a plane, you aren't working nearly hard enough at your duties.
 
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Use the checklist long enough, after a while you can recite it from memory without looking. ;)

I bought one of those "fancy" one-card types for our plane. I use it. I even found an error on it and the manufacturer reved the thing. (Always check those third party airspeed numbers on anything you buy.)

Usually it goes like this... Do preflight and walk around with the card sitting on the seat. Pick up card and read all items to ensure they're all complete.

Get in, configure aircraft. Read card to confirm.

Etc. Throughout the flight.

When I visited Jesse in December and was in total brain overload, I fell back to "leaning on the checklist" pretty heavily. And I was still missing stuff. (Usually closing the cowl flaps and the cruise checklist.).

My usual "flows" from VFR flying were all interrupted with having to watch those instrument thingys in the panel. ;) ;) ;)
 
I use them for preflight, engine start, and runup. That's it. I have far more important things to do while piloting an aircraft than read lists. I do not want to be in the same landing pattern as someone who's reading a checklist rather than keeping their eyes outside the cockpit.
 
denverpilot said:
Use the checklist long enough, after a while you can recite it from memory without looking. ;)

I bought one of those "fancy" one-card types for our plane. I use it. I even found an error on it and the manufacturer reved the thing. (Always check those third party airspeed numbers on anything you buy.)

Usually it goes like this... Do preflight and walk around with the card sitting on the seat. Pick up card and read all items to ensure they're all complete.

Get in, configure aircraft. Read card to confirm.

Etc. Throughout the flight.

When I visited Jesse in December and was in total brain overload, I fell back to "leaning on the checklist" pretty heavily. And I was still missing stuff. (Usually closing the cowl flaps and the cruise checklist.).

My usual "flows" from VFR flying were all interrupted with having to watch those instrument thingys in the panel. ;) ;) ;)
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Right, now try it with SVT and report back.;)

Really, you're an ideal spokesperson for the merits of either. Do not forget, you can have a panel with only, and multiply redundant, SVT, you'll never have to look at anything like you did before. Tell us how much time you think it would take to become comfortable and competent at flying by reference to the panel.Fly your 182 to a dealer with a G1000 SVT plane for sale and say, "I'd like one hour of instrument instruction with the SVT and I bet you get 2 or 3 for free.;)
 
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For cruise and descent, only when flying an aircraft new to me. Otherwise, I do pretty much as Nate said. When transitioning to the 182, I had no trouble remembering to adjust the prop when reaching cruise, but those cowl flaps, on the other hand...

My checkout CFI got on me for not using the pre-landing checklist, but I generally do GUMPS at least three times, so that pretty well covers it.
 
Cruise and descent? No. The only thing I have available to change is the throttle and trim. No mixture or carb heat (the carbs draw warm air behind the engine).

For runup - the checklist is pasted to the wing root over on the passenger side because when I didn't use it, I did miss things.
 
Yes, I always use a checklist, but it's not always a printed checklist. DPE (and former FAA Inspector) Frank Phillips talks about the checklist issue with every applicant who comes to him. I haven't yet memorized his definition of "checklist," but it's something like "an ordered series of steps in a process to accomplish a particular task." He emphasizes that it need not be printed. For simple light planes, those who (like me) use the CIGAR-TIP checklist for pretakeoff are using a method equally as valid as running their finger down a printed checklist.

No, this won't fly with the FAA for Part 121 ops, nor will it be acceptable in a multicrew environment where "challenge and reply" is the order of the day. But if you can order your thoughts, and have a means to accurately and reproducibly run through and check the steps needed for tasks like engine start, pre-takeoff, etc., there is no requirement to refer to a printed checklist each time you do that task.
 
Tracey said:
My question is: Do you always use a checklist-- not for pre-flight and run-up, but for cruise & pre-descent (and not just GUMPS, but pullilng out the actual checklist and going over it).
Click to expand...

My CFI gave me a printed checklist for a C-152 that included the following, but I have never consulted it during those phases of flight:

CLIMB
1. Flaps - UP
2. Airspeed - CRUISE-CLIMB

CRUISE
1. Power (65%) - SET
2. Mixture - SET
3. Engine Instruments - MONITOR
4. Heading Indicator - MONITOR
5. Next ATIS - MONITOR

IN RANGE
1. ATIS - REVIEWED
2. Heading Indicator & Altimeter - SET
3. Radios - SET
4. Approach - REVIEWED
5. Mixture - ADJUST

To me, most of above points aren't really check-list material (at least for VFR flying) but are so fundamental that they need to be committed to memory as part of the ongoing flying process.
 
What if you forget one or more? Same answer(s) as frequently appear in NTSB reports? Forgot #2 on cruise checklist, fuel exhaustion, crashed. RIP

Jim Logajan said:
My CFI gave me a printed checklist for a C-152 that included the following, but I have never consulted it during those phases of flight:

CLIMB
1. Flaps - UP
2. Airspeed - CRUISE-CLIMB

CRUISE
1. Power (65%) - SET
2. Mixture - SET
3. Engine Instruments - MONITOR
4. Heading Indicator - MONITOR
5. Next ATIS - MONITOR

IN RANGE
1. ATIS - REVIEWED
2. Heading Indicator & Altimeter - SET
3. Radios - SET
4. Approach - REVIEWED
5. Mixture - ADJUST

To me, most of above points aren't really check-list material (at least for VFR flying) but are so fundamental that they need to be committed to memory as part of the ongoing flying process.
Click to expand...
 
Jim Logajan said:
My CFI gave me a printed checklist for a C-152 that included the following, but I have never consulted it during those phases of flight:

CLIMB
1. Flaps - UP
2. Airspeed - CRUISE-CLIMB

CRUISE
1. Power (65%) - SET
2. Mixture - SET
3. Engine Instruments - MONITOR
4. Heading Indicator - MONITOR
5. Next ATIS - MONITOR

IN RANGE
1. ATIS - REVIEWED
2. Heading Indicator & Altimeter - SET
3. Radios - SET
4. Approach - REVIEWED
5. Mixture - ADJUST

To me, most of above points aren't really check-list material (at least for VFR flying) but are so fundamental that they need to be committed to memory as part of the ongoing flying process.
Click to expand...

Not one mention of fuel? I am all for instructors giving abbreviated and pointed lists to new students, no need to have to memorize it all at once. Give them the core and feed them more later. Fuel management should be mentioned in every heading.
 
Henning said:
Not one mention of fuel? I am all for instructors giving abbreviated and pointed lists to new students, no need to have to memorize it all at once. Give them the core and feed them more later. Fuel management should be mentioned in every heading.
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:yesnod:
 
Henning said:
Right, now try it with SVT and report back.;)

Really, you're an ideal spokesperson for the merits of either. Do not forget, you can have a panel with only, and multiply redundant, SVT, you'll never have to look at anything like you did before. Tell us how much time you think it would take to become comfortable and competent at flying by reference to the panel.Fly your 182 to a dealer with a G1000 SVT plane for sale and say, "I'd like one hour of instrument instruction with the SVT and I bet you get 2 or 3 for free.;)
Click to expand...

I don't want to hijack this thread with the SVT conversation again, but I read the other one and I agree that SVT would be nice to have. You all made interesting points.

The reality is though that while any kid in their basement could probably code up a working SVT with already available open-source software components, a Certified SVT is pitched to the world by the avionics folk as a "new" technology and priced way out of the reach of a Certified panel recreational flyer.

And the American Avionics group opened their trade show yesterday lamenting that they've lost their edge. No kidding. You guys haven't had any real competition or a good price war in two decades. And you wonder why you're fat dumb and happy?! LOL.

The same SVT tech in an Experimental, cheaper but still rediculous. We've hashed through that one before too.

If I were flying IMC regularly it'd be a serious consideration. But if I were doing that it would probably mean I were in need of a serious all-weather traveling machine, and that wouldn't be the Skylane. It's a good-to-slightly-cloudy traveling machine if you're honest about the risks involved.

So... For my mission and needs, there won't be an SVT in the panel anytime soon unless it came along as a ride-along option on say, a future Aspen upgrade.
 
Keep your eyes on the future, there is noise at the FAA of creating an Owner Maint category and you'll be able to put the avionics packages from the experimental models (BTW, there is a way to legally use Experimental SVT in your plane, there is a current Fed on this board that had such a thing going for quite a few years in a certain Cherokee 6 IIRC) in what are currently certified airplanes. The FAA wants everyone to have this stuff because it's required for NEXTGEN to work. Since their masters have broken the economy so no one can afford it, they told the FAA to make it so we can buy the cheap stuff. ;)
 
I use flows and I confirm my flows with a checklist designed for this purpose. I generally do not use the checklist after departure and use only flows for descents and climbs, level offs, approach, landing, and taxi. I use a flow then confirm with checklist for an after landing check.

Flows are great. Enroute climb in the Cardinal? Start on the floor with fuel selector both, move up to open the cowl flaps, right to enrichen the mixture, left to increase the prop rpm, manifold pressure, and your hand is right where it needs to be to trim everything up. Level off? Touch the same things in reverse.

In addition to flows I use standard call outs, for example, on short final I am going to do one final gear check "green light, gear in the window, gear in the mirror". I also run through GUMPS on base although generally the only item I haven't done at that point is prop and maybe mixture forward.

When I was renting 172s I used the flight school's checklist much more like a do-list. This is silly. Many checklists are much too verbose and it took me ages to get from startup to taxi as I read and fumbled through every item.
 
Always, but always as a CHECKLIST, not a DO-LIST.

When you're learning to fly, it's appropriate to use the checklist as a do-list, as a good one will lead you around the airplane and through the tasks in an organized fashion. I make my students take the factory checklist and modify one section and tell me why they did it, as an exercise in showing they are are at at least the application and hopefully the correlation level.

Once you are proficient and familiar, then the checklist is to make sure you've not forgotten anything. So while I may set up the airplane for cruise completely by memory, I will then pull out the checklist and make sure I haven't forgotten something (like closing the cowl flaps). By the time I turn base, I've done all my tasks, reviewed the checklist, and I will then do a final gumps check on final, and one more "short final, gear down" check out loud.

"completes the appropriate checklist" is a PTS item, so you need to be able to point to SOMETHING or recite SOMETHING to show you've checked yourself. In my CFI ride, part of my "checklist" was the placards on the panel of the Arrow for takeoff and landing, particularly on the engine-out spot landing where there was no time to pull out paper. Did the tasks, pointed to the placard and said "all done" and the Inspector was happy, and then we were down. In an early arrow, the time from pattern altitude to the runway seems like less than a minute with no power.
 
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As a student Tracey use the checklist everytime. I think most DPE's would like to see you use it. Yes it *can* be in your head but on a checkride you're head may be somewhere else and if you're use to pulling out the checklist then it'll be a no brainer on the 'ride. After your checkride you can do it however you want.
 
Tracey, despite all of the good advice you have received in this thread, the bottom line for you is that the Practical Test Standard has language like "Completes appropriate checklist" for just about all of the Tasks. Get in the habit now so that you won't get that deer-in-the-headlights look when the examiner is in the plane. Blessings upon those who have responded...but they won't be there during your checkride.

Bob Gardner
 
One guy on this forum is struggling with IFR training because he can't keep up with the checklists and fly the airplane. Another guy busted a PPL checkride within the past month because he forgot to turn on the transponder. If both had been better trained (as Tim suggests) would the outcomes be different?
 
BMW 530i Checklist:

1. Seat heaters - on
2. Keyless fob - in cup holder #2
3. Starbucks half decaf carmel lowfat latte chai - in cup holder #1
4. Radio - Presets to XM hip hop, groove funk and eclectic hobo
5. Engine start - Depress brake, push the button thingie
6. Cell phone - send queued texts
7. Backing from parking stall - observe rear cam
8. Exiting parking garage - ensure credit card information has been entered in dash console
9. GPS - engage program. Use function keys to delete Starbucks from route if step 3) has been completed
10. Initial surface street route - set autohorn to "off" engage horn manually
11. Freeway entrance - ensure "age" parameter has been set in GPS. Enter <= 55 if a standard speed entry is desired
12. Freeway unrestrained condition - set headlights to autoflash and enable graphical finger display
13. Freeway restrained condition - set autohorn to "on"
14. Parking garage entrance - ensure credit card information has been entered in dash console
15. Parking - engage parking assist
16. Securing vehicle - place keyless fob in purse, cell phone in "fake call mode" and verify presence of expresso drink
 
Sac Arrow said:
BMW 530i Checklist:

1. Seat heaters - on
2. Keyless fob - in cup holder #2
3. Starbucks half decaf carmel lowfat latte chai - in cup holder #1
4. Radio - Presets to XM hip hop, groove funk and eclectic hobo
5. Engine start - Depress brake, push the button thingie
6. Cell phone - send queued texts
7. Backing from parking stall - observe rear cam
8. Exiting parking garage - ensure credit card information has been entered in dash console
9. GPS - engage program. Use function keys to delete Starbucks from route if step 3) has been completed
10. Initial surface street route - set autohorn to "off" engage horn manually
11. Freeway entrance - ensure "age" parameter has been set in GPS. Enter <= 55 if a standard speed entry is desired
12. Freeway unrestrained condition - set headlights to autoflash and enable graphical finger display
13. Freeway restrained condition - set autohorn to "on"
14. Parking garage entrance - ensure credit card information has been entered in dash console
15. Parking - engage parking assist
16. Securing vehicle - place keyless fob in purse, cell phone in "fake call mode" and verify presence of expresso drink
Click to expand...
17. Call AAA for assistance due to fuel exhaustion.
18. Call 911 to report the gang-bangers who just stopped behind me.

FTFY
 
bobmrg said:
Tracey, despite all of the good advice you have received in this thread, the bottom line for you is that the Practical Test Standard has language like "Completes appropriate checklist" for just about all of the Tasks. Get in the habit now so that you won't get that deer-in-the-headlights look when the examiner is in the plane. Blessings upon those who have responded...but they won't be there during your checkride.

Bob Gardner
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Do not forget this. The question asked does not address this issue. For your checkride, go through your flow get everything set, grab the check list and challenge /verify. Each list is only a few items so it's not that tough. You'll notice that cockpits are designed with flows in mind.
 
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wabower said:
One guy on this forum is struggling with IFR training because he can't keep up with the checklists and fly the airplane. Another guy busted a PPL checkride within the past month because he forgot to turn on the transponder. If both had been better trained (as Tim suggests) would the outcomes be different?
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Multiple fundamental issues.
 
Tracey: When I did my SODA flight with an FAA Examiner it went well, but with the following comment: "That was a good ride but I'll make one suggestion. Use that check list. Someone else could have busted you three times; but with the check list in the pocket by my right knee you didn't miss a trick." Those are words I'll remember, though I now keep it handy "for reference."

HR
 
bobmrg said:
Tracey, despite all of the good advice you have received in this thread, the bottom line for you is that the Practical Test Standard has language like "Completes appropriate checklist" for just about all of the Tasks. Get in the habit now so that you won't get that deer-in-the-headlights look when the examiner is in the plane. Blessings upon those who have responded...but they won't be there during your checkride.
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Good point Bob.

And thanks everyone.. when I'm a "real" pilot I will probably do what you all do.. for now I will keep pulling out the handy-dandy checklist.:yesnod:
 
Tracey, did this come up because you are looking at the little PTS book by chance? I remember, as I got closer to my checkride, seeing "checklist" all over the place in there. Then I thought "Gosh, I never use a checklist for HALF of those things."
 
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