The other day, after a xc, my instructor said, "next time we have to remember to lean the mixture."
And then I started thinking, "Um... maybe I better start using the checklists....."
Checklist? (And forgive me if this has been covered)
- Thread starter Tracey
- Start date
The other day, after a xc, my instructor said, "next time we have to remember to lean the mixture."
And then I started thinking, "Um... maybe I better start using the checklists....."
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
The other day, after a xc, my instructor said, "next time we have to remember to lean the mixture."
Checklists are good but my CFI said ESPECIALLY for the engine out / emergency landing I should memorize the items (for attempting engine restart and then the other stuff). And no matter what a checklist said he always had me pitch for / trim for best glide speed, achieve that speed, and then pull out the list.
Yes, I have memorized those. And when I have pulled out the checklist, I always say "fly the airplane" to myself first, so I don't get caught up in looking down.
denverpilot
Tied Down
The other day, after a xc, my instructor said, "next time we have to remember to lean the mixture."
Heh. The perfect "fix" for that behavior is to own the engine.
You always remember to lean, and open cowl flaps. And the usual comment that we have to lean on the ground up here at this altitude for takeoff...
Ok, forgive this comment... but I have never opened or read about opening the cowl flaps in my 172. So maybe that's not something that I have to do (in my plane)?Heh. The perfect "fix" for that behavior is to own the engine.
And the usual comment that we have to lean on the ground up here at this altitude for takeoff...
TMetzinger
Final Approach
You don't have them in a 172.
I knew that.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Sorry if that was confusing. You'll fly something with them someday.
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
I knew that.
You would need to un-do a lot of screws.... to get yours off. Some planes just have big flaps (on one side, or both) that you can lift up and see EVERYTHING. Pretty cool, I have this on my 150 and I've seen it on a Comanche.
For some reason the boss in the show "The Office" just came to mind.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
OK - Movable cowl flaps that can be adjusted IN FLIGHT are for cooling. The things you open up to look at the engine as part of the preflight are access covers, not cowl flaps.
The point behind cowl flaps is that if you have them open they provide an exit for the ram-air that enters the cowling to flow out the bottom, this increases cooling flow and if your baffling is in good shape the air follows a specific path over the cylinders. Once you're up in cruise in cooler temps, you may close the cowl flaps which decreases the airflow through the engine compartment. It also reduces drag a bit too.
When you fly airplanes with bigger engines and tight cowlings (Mooneys come to mind immediately) the cowl flaps become important items. Forget to open them and you can cook your engine in the climb.
The point behind cowl flaps is that if you have them open they provide an exit for the ram-air that enters the cowling to flow out the bottom, this increases cooling flow and if your baffling is in good shape the air follows a specific path over the cylinders. Once you're up in cruise in cooler temps, you may close the cowl flaps which decreases the airflow through the engine compartment. It also reduces drag a bit too.
When you fly airplanes with bigger engines and tight cowlings (Mooneys come to mind immediately) the cowl flaps become important items. Forget to open them and you can cook your engine in the climb.
Ok, got it. Thanks for the clarification.
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
Sorry. Didn't read his post. My mistake. Cowling vs. cowl. Whoops.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
Kimberly, I hope my message didn't come across harsh. I'm doing some ugly math homework now and have other things going on, all of which make me behave like a grizzly bear with a toothache.
Aeric
Line Up and Wait
Michael Scott was the best!For some reason the boss in the show "The Office" just came to mind.
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
Actually, I have a toothache. Turns out I need a root canal. Dead nerve. So that probably distracted me. If I had read his post the way it was written I would have realized he wasn't talking about the flaps on the outside used for pre-flight.
denverpilot
Tied Down
The things at the top of the nosegear strut in this photo.
(Yeah. The belly's really dirty in this shot.)
(Yeah. The belly's really dirty in this shot.)
TMetzinger
Final Approach
Ouch... I'm sorry. Go get your root canal and feel better.
wabower
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View attachment Cockpit Flow.pdf
Many pilots have never seen a flow diagram, so I attached a scan from a King Air that shows the pilot-side pre-start flow, assuming a two-pilot crew. If flown by a single-pilot, the flow would obviously include the other side of the panel as well, since all of the items must be accomplaished wihout regard to the number of pilots.
This particular flow pattern happens to work quite well (by including the dashed line and ignoring the overhead) for most single-engine Cessnas as well, if the flow is started with the pilot's right hand on the floor between the seats (Fuel Selector, Trim, Flaps in my Cessna 180) then up the center to the power controls (Carb heat, Throttle, Prop, Mixture) then across the lower switch panel to the sidewall (turn on master in this row so fuel gages will show quantity) then back across the flight instruments to the other sidewall and return across engine gages and envirnonmental controls to the power quadrant for engine start.
Once familiar with this flow, list, the pilot should be able to quickly run the printed check list as a "done list" to confirm all items have been complied with, assuming the printed check list has been arranged in the same order as the flow pattern. Finding such an arrangement is unusual, so many pilots will reconfigure the factory list to match the flow pattern in order to facilitate the completion of the process. I've done so for every airplane that I've owned or flown regularly, and the resulting normal check lists are easily contained on one side of an 8.5"X 11" sheet that I laminate and fold vertically with the "out and up" items on one side and the "down and in" items on the other, along with the "first flight of the day" and "secure" items that are only used once each day.
Many pilots have never seen a flow diagram, so I attached a scan from a King Air that shows the pilot-side pre-start flow, assuming a two-pilot crew. If flown by a single-pilot, the flow would obviously include the other side of the panel as well, since all of the items must be accomplaished wihout regard to the number of pilots.
This particular flow pattern happens to work quite well (by including the dashed line and ignoring the overhead) for most single-engine Cessnas as well, if the flow is started with the pilot's right hand on the floor between the seats (Fuel Selector, Trim, Flaps in my Cessna 180) then up the center to the power controls (Carb heat, Throttle, Prop, Mixture) then across the lower switch panel to the sidewall (turn on master in this row so fuel gages will show quantity) then back across the flight instruments to the other sidewall and return across engine gages and envirnonmental controls to the power quadrant for engine start.
Once familiar with this flow, list, the pilot should be able to quickly run the printed check list as a "done list" to confirm all items have been complied with, assuming the printed check list has been arranged in the same order as the flow pattern. Finding such an arrangement is unusual, so many pilots will reconfigure the factory list to match the flow pattern in order to facilitate the completion of the process. I've done so for every airplane that I've owned or flown regularly, and the resulting normal check lists are easily contained on one side of an 8.5"X 11" sheet that I laminate and fold vertically with the "out and up" items on one side and the "down and in" items on the other, along with the "first flight of the day" and "secure" items that are only used once each day.
Good point Bob.
And thanks everyone.. when I'm a "real" pilot I will probably do what you all do.. for now I will keep pulling out the handy-dandy checklist.
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Everskyward
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It says "invalid attachment".
wabower
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So it do. It was fine when I previewed, I must have screwed it up after that. So what else is new? I'll try to fix it.
PS: It seems to work now, but don't bet on anything I do with a computer.
PS: It seems to work now, but don't bet on anything I do with a computer.
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GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
Depends how much time I have in the airplane. For the C150 that I own a share in, I have set flows that I use, then glance over the checklist to make sure I didn't miss anything. If it's a type I've never flown or don't fly much, then I go through each item, line by line. For Emergency procedures, the checklist will always come out to make sure I get it right (unless my engine quits at 500AGL...).
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
The problem with alot of flight school checklists is that they are too cluttered with needless, rudundent information (thus causing students to miss alot of important stuff, like turning on the transponder). Anyone who needs a checklist to tell them to get the ATIS or request a taxi clearance has the wrong idea of what a checklist is for. Same thing for the whole "key-turn and release" line that appears in alot of flight school checklists.
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
When I'm doing a checkout, I'm more impressed with the guy who uses GUMPS and keeps his/her head outside than I am with the guy who looks down at a printed checklist and uses it as an instruction manual. It frustrates me, but I don't blame it on the pilots. I blame it on CFI's who are too lazy to teach people to develope a flow.
dmccormack
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It depends. here's my ideal progression:
- New student: Checklist + flow after checklist is run.
- Progressing student: Checklist for startup, runup, flow before rolling onto the runway, cruise, descent, landing.
- Ready for checkride (PVT, COMM, CFI): Can perform all flows with eyes closed.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I'm one of the rebels that doesn't use a checklist. I flow left to right on start up, left to right on descent, and right to left on shut down. But I also have a couple hundred hours plus in my plane. For the first 20 flights or so it was checklist checklist checklist.
Everskyward
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Hmmm... not for me.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
My version is the same, except for
- Ready for checkride (PVT, COMM, CFI): Can perform all flows with eyes closed, but then opens them and scans the appropriate checklist.
Mike5250
Line Up and Wait
I use the checklist from preflight to landing. Maybe beacause I am a newbie with only 150 Hours? Its not difficult to use and it helps avoid any mistakes, especially when switching between different model a/c.
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wabower
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wabower
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Keep on keepin' on. The practice will stand you in good stead. Let somebody else explain why they forgot something important when they were distracted by an unexpected event, or temporarily got out of sequence. The creativity of those limp-lies is always interesting to hear.
Jim Logajan
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In theory, for optimum stoichiometric ratio, mixture needs to be changed every time the airplane changes altitude. And you can change altitude several times in cruise flight; do you believe then that a printed checklist should be consulted after every altitude change? When leveling off, I was taught the mnemonic "pitch, power, trim" but my personal, and no doubt anti-authority position, is that "pitch, power, trim, mixture" is slightly more complete and the one that should be committed to memory.
In my humble and no doubt dangerous opinion: manual mixture controls are an unfortunate engineering abomination. Where they exist they should be treated as a flight control on the same par as rudder pedals, yoke/stick, throttle, carb heat, and flaps. Pilots shouldn't be trained to consult printed check lists as reminders for any of these for any of the basic maneuvers, whether climbs or descents or turns.
However, I am merely a low-time pilot, and casual readers need to treat my opinion as singularly unique. There may be perfectly good reasons for why mixture needs to be treated as a non-flight control such that it should be on a printed checklist for flight maneuvers. The only dubiously "good" reason that I can think of is that instructors do not believe or train in a way that treats mixture as affecting flight performance. In that case, I can see why it becomes an annoyance that has to be relegated to a printed check-list.
John Baker
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Checklist for start, run up, and take off. If I was dealing with an HP/complex, I would be using a checklist for more phases of the flight. Driving and landing a Warrior is not all that complicated. The mandatory panel mounted place cards usually suffice, if for some reason, I suffer a momentary brain fart.
-John
-John
wabower
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You should rest comfortably in the knowledge that most low-time pilots have low-time answers. And since they have committed everything they need to know to their unfailing (so far anyway) memory, there's no reason to use any other resources. Carry on.
Threefingeredjack
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In my personal A/C, for start up and pre-take-off ,Yes. Always. Cruise and descent, nope. Landing, nope. In complex A/C (HC-144, HC-130, HU-25) Yup every time, every evolution.
Jim Logajan
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So you believe that a pilot, when in the pattern coming abeam the numbers on downwind, should consult a printed checklist containing the items "carb heat on, throttle back, trim, flaps, turn with low bank, flaps, turn with low bank, flaps, flare," lest the pilot forget one and crash. We know such crashes happen - so clearly printed checklists must be the solution, right?
The above "solution" is the simple logical progression to the kind of training dependency you are defending, which doesn't have any sound or consistent basis, notwithstanding whatever personal acquaintance you had with the Wright brothers.
Note to Tracey and other student pilots: my views are (mostly) quite outside the mainstream. Rely on the ways your CFI trained you. My arguments here are on a more abstract level and directed toward CFIs.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Doug and I had an interesting discussion in cruise today due to this thread as "discussion fodder".
We've both been up with very old (we're talking 70 years old+) pilots recently who have flown a ton and THINK they have their flows memorized... who should probably be migrating back to using their darn checklists... because frankly, they're missing stuff. Regularly.
They get reminders from other crew on board and don't really de-brief in their minds later and realize they're getting reminders on virtually every flight that there's another pilot on board. Not closing their own loop and realizing they are slipping a bit.
And they get their checkouts/Flight Reviews from 20-30 year buddies who are doing the same thing.
No new blood to say, "Hey, you missed some things there... I'd really like to see you referencing the checklist as a backup to your flows." Something they might hear diplomatically from a younger, non-flying-buddy CFI.
We've both been up with very old (we're talking 70 years old+) pilots recently who have flown a ton and THINK they have their flows memorized... who should probably be migrating back to using their darn checklists... because frankly, they're missing stuff. Regularly.
They get reminders from other crew on board and don't really de-brief in their minds later and realize they're getting reminders on virtually every flight that there's another pilot on board. Not closing their own loop and realizing they are slipping a bit.
And they get their checkouts/Flight Reviews from 20-30 year buddies who are doing the same thing.
No new blood to say, "Hey, you missed some things there... I'd really like to see you referencing the checklist as a backup to your flows." Something they might hear diplomatically from a younger, non-flying-buddy CFI.
wabower
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Can you produce any written checklist that includes the final three items?
I understand that you have all the answers regarding aviation and that anybody who disagrees with your self-assessed level of expertise is simply another old guy who accumulated his thousands of accident-free hours of pilot and instruction time by pure happenstance.
I understand that you have all the answers regarding aviation and that anybody who disagrees with your self-assessed level of expertise is simply another old guy who accumulated his thousands of accident-free hours of pilot and instruction time by pure happenstance.
wabower
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The self-exalted opinion of some posters not withstanding, everybody forgets something from time to time, even in the best of circumstances. Put a little pressure on them (distraction, mechanical, weather, lost comm, electrical, etc.) and they unfold like a flea-market accordian. The reason that writtten lists are used as "done lists" rather than "do lists" is to simply verify that the flows were completed properly. Older guys are prime suspects to forget anything and everything, and their time in the seat shouldn't be an excuse for sloppy flying. OTOH, pilots can arrange their flows and checklists in such a way that they can be used quickly and become a convenient tool that makes flying easier rather than harder.
When reading the various posts in this thread, simply ask yourself how many pilots were trained to operate as they do, and how many decided on their own that "there's no need to go through all that checklist crap, I got this handled without it." Then read the NTSB reports and ask yourself if the pilot population has things figured out as well as they thought. I'm not suggesting that check-list usage is a cure-all for all of the accidents, I'm simply trying to eliminate the easy ones that help contribute to our horse-shlt safety record.
You have already seen first-hand how the wheels fall off if check-list usage isn't up to speed. Every other pilot who starts IR training will be faced with similar issues, and most will come away with a different outlook.
When reading the various posts in this thread, simply ask yourself how many pilots were trained to operate as they do, and how many decided on their own that "there's no need to go through all that checklist crap, I got this handled without it." Then read the NTSB reports and ask yourself if the pilot population has things figured out as well as they thought. I'm not suggesting that check-list usage is a cure-all for all of the accidents, I'm simply trying to eliminate the easy ones that help contribute to our horse-shlt safety record.
You have already seen first-hand how the wheels fall off if check-list usage isn't up to speed. Every other pilot who starts IR training will be faced with similar issues, and most will come away with a different outlook.
Wayne, do you adhere to strict checklist protocol transitioning phases of flight in your 180?