Cheapest route to IFR panel

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Lawson Laslo

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Hello,
Curious what would be the cheapest options to make my Ercoupe IFR capable to use for insturment training.
I DO NOT plan to fly the Ercoupe in actual IMC conditions but would like to use it to get my 20 hours training.
Heres my panel.
No VOR, GPS, or Nav radio.
IMG-4161 (2).JPG
 
As we've discussed in another thread, to use it as your sole plane for IFR training you're options are as follows:

Install a VOR/ILS/LOC and an ADF
Install a VOR/ILS/LOC and a GPS (possibly in the same box such as an older GNS430 or the like).
 
If you are not going to fly this plane in IMC I wouldn't bother installing an IFR panel. I would instead train in an appropriately IFR-equipped aircraft, which these days would include WAAS GPS as well as VOR/LOC/ILS. You can buy a lot of training for what it costs to install an IFR panel from scratch. At a minimum, you need VOR/LOC/ILS or a GPS/NAV/COM. Either option would require an external CDI for IFR ops. Only one VOR is REALLY clumsy for certain non-precision approaches. I would also argue that for practical IFR training you would want an FIS-B source to get experience with in-flight weather management. ADS-B would be highly recommended so you can operate in Class B or C airspace. I would recommend training in a plane with the configuration that you plan on flying IFR. If you are not planning on flying IFR, then I would still recommend training in a well-equipped aircraft. Ultimately, if you are not going to use the IR, it is a quite perishable skill.
 
Lawson Laslo said:
So is that the only thing I would need?
Click to expand...

The practical answer to this is it depend on what approaches are available where you are training. Also, what plane are you planning to take the check ride in? You can do a great deal of useful training with simply that VOR/ILS/GS assuming there are VOR, LOC and ILS approaches where you train. The problem is, those are going away relatively rapidly. They are being replaced by GPS/LPV approaches.

John
 
In short, yes. You can get your instrument rating using just this.

You obviously won’t get the benefit of knowing how to do GPS approaches and as was mentioned the VOR approaches are starting to go away but you will be able to take a checkride using just that.

It is a VOR as well as an ILS with GS all in one.


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Math it.

Your plane has an engine and fuel/oil cost per hour. Then add the cost of an IFR panel.

A rental plane for IR training has a cost as well.

One will cost more than the other.

Compare the two.

I say the above because you mentioned the cheapest option.
 
Lawson Laslo said:
Hello,
Curious what would be the cheapest options to make my Ercoupe IFR capable to use for insturment training.
I DO NOT plan to fly the Ercoupe in actual IMC conditions but would like to use it to get my 20 hours training.
Heres my panel.
No VOR, GPS, or Nav radio.
...
Click to expand...

So that begs the question what is the motivation to get your IR?

If it is the challenge and desire for the rating then spending some modest amount of money to achieve the minimal IFR requirement panel may make sense. End result is a more capable airplane and a more capable pilot. :thumbsup:

However, if you plan to actually use the IR frequently ITRW you'd be much better off training in a better equipped airplane with an IFR certified GPS/NAV and HSI (and maybe an autopilot).

BTW, that is a fine looking Ercoupe you have there!
 
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GRG55 said:
So that begs the question what is the motivation to get your IR?

If it is the challenge and desire for the rating then spending some modest amount of money to achieve the minimal IFR requirement panel may make sense. End result is a more capable airplane and a more capable pilot. :thumbsup:

However, if you plan to actually use the IR frequently ITRW you'd be much better off training in a better equipped airplane with an IFR certified GPS/NAV and HSI (and maybe an autopilot).

BTW, that is a fine looking Ercoupe you have there!
Click to expand...
Thank you!
 
k9medic said:
Roughly $1400 plus install and antenna for the Nav 122.
Click to expand...
I like the idea of the Narco Nav
If I could find space in the panel to mount it, what all would I need besides the unit itself?
 
I wouldn't add anything to your 'Coupe. You could still do basic instrument practice, and even nav course tracking, with a portable GPS or ipad. All you need for "practice" is something that draws a course line, and a CDI-type display. Yes, it will all be simulated/contrived, and you won't really have anything with a glideslope, but, eventually, you'll have to use another fully IFR equipped plane anyway.
 
k9medic said:
Find/buy a Narco Nav 112 or 122. It's a VOR/ILS/GS all in one. I did this in a Warrior years ago.
Click to expand...
Which will not allow him to complete instrument solely in his aircraft.
 
flyingron said:
Which will not allow him to complete instrument solely in his aircraft.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Installing a Nav 122 would allow ILS and VOR approaches and navigation, but, what about nonprecision approaches? The instrument rating needs more than ILS/VOR... the best bet would be a used Garmin 430, allowing ILS/VOR plus GPS/RNAV nonprecision stuff. VOR approaches are going away...

That's a nice looking Ercoupe, but... an IFR Ercoupe? Ugh. IMHO, a better idea would be to use the G430 upgrade money to rent an actual IFR trainer.
 
I don’t have a copy of the current ACS in front of me but I don’t recall it saying you had to have a GPS.

You only had to fly using the instruments that you had installed. I know some things have changed but when I got my CFII and ATP the aircraft I flew did not have a GPS.

A VOR or localizer approach is a non-precision approach so you have what you need there.


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Lawson Laslo said:
So is that the only thing I would need?
Click to expand...

Let's all sing it in unison: NO

You'll need a CDI of some type, and space to put that in your scan. Potentially you'll need an annunciator if the distance to the Navigator is too great to be considered part of the scan, Then there's antennae. And the "GPS only foolishness" is a great retread of every thread of this nature always.

Best advice you've gotten so far is don't screw with your Ercoupe panel. The next owner will thank you and no money you put into that panel will ever come back to you. The money you don't waste in your panel will pay for the rental of an equipped plane.
 
Frankly, it would be cheaper to rent a plane to do your instrument rating in. You could do the basic attitude stuff in your airplane and rent one for the approaches, to cut the cost some. But I don’t think it would be cost effective to try to make your airplane legal to do the training in.
 
The ACS is not a problem, but 61.65(d)(2)(ii)(C) is a sticking point unless you either have an ADF or GPS or you can find an SDF or LDA approach nearby. As I stated, the checkride can be done with a single VOR/GS/LOC receiver, but as the FAA interprets the rule above you practically need one.
 
k9medic said:
I don’t have a copy of the current ACS in front of me but I don’t recall it saying you had to have a GPS.

You only had to fly using the instruments that you had installed. I know some things have changed but when I got my CFII and ATP the aircraft I flew did not have a GPS.

A VOR or localizer approach is a non-precision approach so you have what you need there.
Click to expand...

You keep pushing this idea that installing an old Narco Nav 122 is the cat's meow and that's all he needs... and I'm not going to say that you're wrong; my CFII ticket expired in '92 and I haven't looked lately at the regs as to the absolute minimum required equipment. But, it's just a bad idea. Why even go into trying to get an instrument rating with bare bones equipment? After getting his ticket in a Nav 122 equipped Ercoupe, there's no way he'd be ready for "real world" IFR flying.

k9medic said:
You obviously won’t get the benefit of knowing how to do GPS approaches and as was mentioned the VOR approaches are starting to go away but you will be able to take a checkride using just that.
Click to expand...
VOR approaches are "starting" to go away? Too late. They're almost gone. When I built the panel in my RV-8 back in '05-06, I installed a KX-125 nav/com thinking I could get around as needed using VOR or LOC approaches. I was wrong; there's almost no utility left using this method. And don't get me wrong, I understand wanting to do the cheapest route to an IFR panel; when building my RV, "inexpensive" was my religion, but cheap can bite you. When I upgraded my panel last spring I spent a few bucks and added dual G5s and a GNX375 transponder/navigator; I also kept the KX125 as a nav/com backup. So far in my travels last year the 375 has been incredibly useful.

So, in a nutshell, I'll agree with Ravioli; "NO!"
 
jbDC9 said:
You keep pushing this idea that installing an old Narco Nav 122 is the cat's meow and that's all he needs...
Click to expand...

I wrote that because his question is VERY specific. He wrote "what would be the cheapest options to make my Ercoupe IFR capable to use for instrument training." I do not think that there is any CHEAPER way to do this. I'm not saying it is the right way to do this. I'm not saying that I would do this but it is a clear answer to his specific question.

@flyingiron, I had a chance to pull up the ACS. It says:
Consistent with 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45 (b) and (d), the aircraft must have:
• the flight instruments necessary for controlling the aircraft without outside references,
• the radio equipment required for ATC communications, and
• the ability to perform instrument approach procedures
• GPS equipment must be instrument certified and contain the current database.

Note it just says if you have a GPS that is used for the test, you have to have a current database.

61.65 (d)(2)(ii)(c) requires three different types of approaches. You could do a VOR at one location, a LOC at another and a ILS at a third.

Again guys/gals, I'm not saying it is the best way to do this nor would I do this but it hits the basic benchmark. Heck, the OP could fly around under the hood in what he has now and just build time and then rent an IFR capable aircraft for the last 5-10 hours and he would be even better off financially.
 
Interesting. Never heard of the Glasner interpretation.

Wonder what precipitated that letter to the FAA.


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Let me chime in here. I don’t know about the Narco products mentioned, but one could substitute a KX170B to give GS, ILS, Vor and Com functionality. These are old but probably plentiful and reliable as far as old avionics are concerned. Mine are still going strong as my second Nav/Com. I keep my other removed unit as a backup to nav/com 2, should it die. As others have mentioned, you will need a CDI with GS and the antennas for the Vor, GS and comms.
What I don’t see is the panel space in your panel to accommodate those additions. Something would appear to have to be subtracted. A panel rework, along with other costs, may just price it out of the cheap category.
 
Measured under panel and there wouldn’t be enough room for the length of a narco 122 or a VAL insturment
Are there any other all in 1 instruments that are shorter?
 
MajorTurbulence said:
Let me chime in here. I don’t know about the Narco products mentioned, but one could substitute a KX170B to give GS, ILS, Vor and Com functionality. These are old but probably plentiful and reliable as far as old avionics are concerned. Mine are still going strong as my second Nav/Com. I keep my other removed unit as a backup to nav/com 2, should it die. As others have mentioned, you will need a CDI with GS and the antennas for the Vor, GS and comms.
What I don’t see is the panel space in your panel to accommodate those additions. Something would appear to have to be subtracted. A panel rework, along with other costs, may just price it out of the cheap category.
Click to expand...
Yes I would relocate the intercom and the 2 headphone jacks to above the radio and place the insturment in that area
 
Lawson Laslo said:
Yes I would relocate the intercom and the 2 headphone jacks to above the radio and place the insturment in that area
Click to expand...
Yes, but the CDI/GS placement has to be within a specified viewing area and I don’t see where that could be without major surgery. I’m not sure if using your tach spot would qualify which would force a relocation of the tach which would be a lot simpler.
 
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Lawson Laslo said:
Yes I would relocate the intercom and the 2 headphone jacks to above the radio and place the insturment in that area
Click to expand...
And where you would you put the required IFR clock?
 
asicer said:
And where you would you put the required IFR clock?
Click to expand...
Does the transponder have a clock/timer that would obviate the clock? Otherwise move a clock into one of the temperature gauge locations, and relocate that, or don’t know if you could legally place the clock all the way over to the right.
 
MajorTurbulence said:
Does the transponder have a clock/timer that would obviate the clock?
Click to expand...
Looks like a Stratus ESG in the post #1 picture, which I think does not has a timer function.
MajorTurbulence said:
Otherwise move a clock into one of the temperature gauge locations, and relocate that
Click to expand...
Actually, is one of the temp gauges OAT? Looks like one might be oil and the other CHT.
 
"Finding a place" for your CDI will also turn your panel into a shotgun (sometimes said hodgepodge) scan. Another great way to get bad skills that won't commute easily to rentals, be they round or glass.
 
1) Rent a plane that is IFR capable with a Nav computer.
2) You have a space problem. Rip out your half of your panel and replace with a G3 7 inch display with a remote Transponder and a Remote Nav Com
3) Don't do the second option, do the first.
 
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