Cheap Twin vs 6-place Single

steingar said:
Apologies to all offended parties. Never would have used the term had I thought it had any derogatory meanings. Then again, this seems to be the age when snowflakes get bent out of shape from everything under the sun.
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LOL. I got scolded at work for referring to those easily offended as snowflakes. I kid you not.
 
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SoonerAviator said:
outside of the care/feeding of a second windmill
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Mind you, that's not a negligible element, outside of fuel burn (which is the first thing everyone thinks of) you're looking at 4 magneto's, vs 2, 15-20 quarts of oil, vs 8-10, often much more complex fuel management systems, etc., and you're also twice as likely to have some kind of issue on one of the engines needing tinkering with and care. Many people poo poo the BRS due to the 10 year interval $10K-$15K repack.. but that second engine (which gives you, depending on who you talk to, a similar or better e/o survival in the right hands) is going to cost you more, and you really don't get *that* much more performance, out of most planes at least

*Other things to consider.. if your plane ever gets stuck somewhere for some reason or you need a buddy to fly it it's much harder to fly multi-rated competent pilots. If you ever want to share flying time with someone on a long XC etc., then same issue, good luck finding a competent multi copilot

*The added complexity will make single pilot ops, especially IFR, somewhat more difficult as now you're babysitting two engines

*There's a reason why sales are tiny and prices are bottom of the barrel for twins, even proper beasts like the 400 series Cessna twins. The market has spoken that for a multitude of reasons these are generally not great investments

Twins are cool, but at any price point once you start crunching the numbers it is hard to justify them in most cases, unless your machine specifically mandates having a second engine, or you follow in a narrow profile where something like a 310 makes a lot more sense than a 210 for example

Goodluck, if you end up buying a twin keep us along for the buying experience, etc.
 
Tantalum said:
Mind you, that's not a negligible element, outside of fuel burn (which is the first thing everyone thinks of) you're looking at 4 magneto's, vs 2, 15-20 quarts of oil, vs 8-10, often much more complex fuel management systems, etc., and you're also twice as likely to have some kind of issue on one of the engines needing tinkering with and care. Many people poo poo the BRS due to the 10 year interval $10K-$15K repack.. but that second engine (which gives you, depending on who you talk to, a similar or better e/o survival in the right hands) is going to cost you more, and you really don't get *that* much more performance, out of most planes at least

*Other things to consider.. if your plane ever gets stuck somewhere for some reason or you need a buddy to fly it it's much harder to fly multi-rated competent pilots. If you ever want to share flying time with someone on a long XC etc., then same issue, good luck finding a competent multi copilot

*The added complexity will make single pilot ops, especially IFR, somewhat more difficult as now you're babysitting two engines

*There's a reason why sales are tiny and prices are bottom of the barrel for twins, even proper beasts like the 400 series Cessna twins. The market has spoken that for a multitude of reasons these are generally not great investments

Twins are cool, but at any price point once you start crunching the numbers it is hard to justify them in most cases, unless your machine specifically mandates having a second engine, or you follow in a narrow profile where something like a 310 makes a lot more sense than a 210 for example

Goodluck, if you end up buying a twin keep us along for the buying experience, etc.
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I wasn't dismissing the care/feeding of a second engine, I was mentioning it because it's a known component in this debate in terms of twin vs single. I didn't figure it was worth rehashing for the purposes of this discussion. It's one of those "total cost of ownership" debates where, under the right circumstances, you could come out ahead in a twin vs single given certain parameters like purchase price and length of ownership. The larger that acquisition cost differential is (which seems to be exacerbated in the current market), the more likely that a twin piston can be better economically than a single piston. Obviously the longer the time span of ownership, the less likely the twin will win out economically as the chances of overhauls and general twin operating expenses increase.
 
Tantalum said:
Racism/sexism etc becomes very interesting when it's unintentional, or when the act of considering something racist/sexist is racist/sexist in itself.. "you wouldn't understand because you're X" .. ?

I'm Hungarian and when people learn this about me they inevitably will always bring up either paprika or goulash...
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I have a comment related to Hungary.

Since the term "offensive" and references to a regime in WWII by a subset of the political and informed are popular these days, I'd like to post something short and sweet about a seven week period in 1944. In just a few words, it illustrates the ignorance of those that use such references.

MAY 15, 1944
From May 15 to July 9, 1944, Hungarian gendarmerie officials, under the guidance of German SS officials, deported around 440,000 Jews from Hungary. Most were deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau, where, upon arrival and after selection, SS functionaries killed the majority of them in gas chambers.

Thousands were also sent to the border with Austria to be deployed at digging fortification trenches. By the end of July 1944, the only Jewish community left in Hungary was that of Budapest, the capital.


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Jews from Subcarpathian Rus (then part of Hungary) undergo a selection on the ramp at Auschwitz-Birkenau. May 1, 1944.

It took just over fifty days to exterminate almost half a million of our fellow humans.

History has a way of exposing those that would trivialize it for political gain.

Whatever discipline that comes my way from posting this is inconsequential to me.
 
steingar said:
Apologies to all offended parties. Never would have used the term had I thought it had any derogatory meanings. Then again, this seems to be the age when snowflakes get bent out of shape from everything under the sun.
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I was called this and rugrats a lot of times as a kid and had no idea it had racial overtones. glad I didn't say it, and I'll ensure I don't
 
..So I guess the term "Ramp Apes" to mean the awesome dudes who help you reposition your airplane into the hangar when it's raining is derogatory now?

I guess I'll call them "Aviation vehicle movement specialists" now. Jeez... :confused:
 
IK04 said:
..So I guess the term "Ramp Apes" to mean the awesome dudes who help you reposition your airplane into the hangar when it's raining is derogatory now?

I guess I'll call them "Aviation vehicle movement specialists" now. Jeez... :confused:
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Usually it’s ramp rats.
 
Bobanna said:
You gotta recipe?
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Yes, but my favorite is actually Kocsonya, the actual recipe and cooking part starts at 50 seconds in, below. I wish there was a legit Hungarian restaurant in San Diego. When we lived in Toronto there were some proper 'Eastern Bloc' delis, bakeries, and restaurants

You'll need to translate all this yourself.. my mouth is watering just watching him make it. Really most Hung-Aryan dishes are just a combination of meat, tons of manly vegetables like onions, etc., and basically just let it sit in a pot on low heat for a very long time

 
..and to bring this back to flying, AND Hungarian.. here are some glider pilots creating a 5 plane train. The epic cursing the guy is dropping is quite hilarious. I'm not totally sure why he was freaking out, but that man was losing his proverbial sh#t

 
Bobanna said:
You a Cannuck?
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Born in the US (only one in family) but we spent a long time in Canada before moving back to the states. Sister went to McGill after so spent a fair amount of time there even after we moved back to the states
 
schmookeeg said:
I've lived in Portland now almost two years. In this time, I've learned from the residents here that I can find the social injustice in practically any situation. I have no idea what was racist about the 'yard ape' remark. Was that some sort of old-timey slur that nobody else remembers except for you and pepperidge farm?
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Personally I think it's a social injustice you have a Colemill D55. :D

When do we get a ride? :cool:
 
GRG55 said:
Personally I think it's a social injustice you have a Colemill D55. :D

When do we get a ride? :cool:
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Haha. I need zero provocation to turn dinosaurs into noise. just picked it up this morning. bought it sight unseen.

Don't even know where I'm going to base it yet. Probably KUAO. If that's near, come on over. Am visiting friends in LA then headed home with it Friday. :D
 

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schmookeeg said:
Haha. I need zero provocation to turn dinosaurs into noise. just picked it up this morning. bought it sight unseen.

Don't even know where I'm going to base it yet. Probably KUAO. If that's near, come on over. Am visiting friends in LA then headed home with it Friday. :D
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That is going to be a BLAST to fly! Enjoy.
I am up in the PNW region, so a bit of a hike to KUAO area.
You never know though. ;)
 
schmookeeg said:
I've lived in Portland now almost two years. In this time, I've learned from the residents here that I can find the social injustice in practically any situation. I have no idea what was racist about the 'yard ape' remark. Was that some sort of old-timey slur that nobody else remembers except for you and pepperidge farm?
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That's not just an old-timey slur - its just a slur, and it shouldn't be used. Also, Portland is known to be among the most systemically racist cities in the US, regardless of otherwise progressive politics.

Tantalum said:
With the twin you get speed, and while I know they're not necessarily statistically safer, I would have piece of mind flying around with two donks instead of just the one. Crossing the rockies or an extended overwater route that hum of two engines can't be replaced


Nope. There isn't. The Lance, Saratoga, Cherokee Six, 210, 206, etc., all have a certain coolness factor over their absolutely utility capabilities, but they don't have a shred of sex appeal.. and aviation is in large part about that romanticism. Honestly had there not been a v-tail version of the Bo it's whole fame, stigma, and success, would look completely different
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Twins are not statistically safer because people don't maintain the kind of proficiency they need to make them safer. Flown correctly, twins are definitely safer.

Tantalum said:
I mentioned it up top but I'll mention it again, the 600 model Aerostar gets you lightning fast speeds with very reasonable fuel burn around or just under 30 gallons per hour.. in a pseudo cabin-class plane.. and they look pretty bad#ss and would be guaranteed to turn heads on any ramp
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Twins mentioned = my man talking about Aerostars. You should just buy that one Henshall has been flying.

steingar said:
Apologies to all offended parties. Never would have used the term had I thought it had any derogatory meanings. Then again, this seems to be the age when snowflakes get bent out of shape from everything under the sun.
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Snowflake - a term used by someone who is too scared to go buy a sandwich without a machine gun.

Tantalum said:
*There's a reason why sales are tiny and prices are bottom of the barrel for twins, even proper beasts like the 400 series Cessna twins. The market has spoken that for a multitude of reasons these are generally not great investments
.
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Actually, I can't agree that, as of now, twins are poor investments. Especially compared to the price of comparable singles. You can buy a whole lot of airplane for not a whole lot of money, and one that offers a lot of utility. This is particularly true of early 55 Barons, 310s, and even working up to 414/421 and MU2s. At $300-350k, you and me could do a lot with an MU2, especially when you get contract gas for less than $3 a gallon.
 
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