Chartering a Plane - Minimizing Pocket Damage

We do charters in our 208s and people still get on. They just don't go real fast when they get on though.
Jaybird probably has a better feel for the passengers. It's 464 nm so what is that, about 3 hours in a 310? Remember that to non-pilots even King Airs look "small" and they have props! Atlanta to DC is also a route that most likely has many direct flights on the airlines.
 
still, the fastest piston airplane with five pac isnt gonna save that much time over driving. it vsn only take you so far. the sad truth about the practicality of piston planes over driving. well, with the exception of an sr22t!!!:rofl:
 
still, the fastest piston airplane with five pac isnt gonna save that much time over driving. it vsn only take you so far. the sad truth about the practicality of piston planes over driving. well, with the exception of an sr22t!!!:rofl:

In my not-so-fast 140 knot cruiser, ATL-DC outside the SFRA should be about 3½ hours, call it 4 hours even with headwinds. Yeah, that will still leave plenty of fuel in reserve.

Driving ATL-DC is at least 10 hours, plus traffic in Greenville, Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham, etc.

Taking the fastest piston plane will gain 100 knots and subtract a couple of hours, but it won't do it in the ~35 gallons that I will. Faster than driving, and cheaper, too. I'm thinking Mooney Acclaim, the fastest production piston single, 242 knots . . .
 
Am I making sense here? Where is the error in my thought process, because clearly this is _not_ done.

Actually, many brokers do advertise deadhead legs. Keep in mind legs with passengers have higher overheads, and the companies still want to maximize profit, so the prices are often still pretty steep. If you can get one out of five empty legs filled at $5k, you are doing better than filling all the legs at $500.
Check out http://www.jethub.com/empty-leg-private-jet-charter/ as an example.
 
still, the fastest piston airplane with five pac isnt gonna save that much time over driving. it vsn only take you so far. the sad truth about the practicality of piston planes over driving. well, with the exception of an sr22t!!!:rofl:

A lowly little Cherokee 140 turned a 3:45 driving trip into a 1:35 relaxing flight this weekend. Ditto on the return...4:20 of agony saved! And that was on a 240 sm trip (184 nm flying.)

Seldom does driving beat flying!
 
If the flight is 135 that is a no-go.

If you were to find a MEI with a 421 to perform the flight as instructional flight...... :stirpot: *

*Note for the traditionally humor and clueless, I do not advocate doing this as there are 12 ways til sunday for this to go wrong.

Actually, if he is paying the entire bill as a demise charter it can operate under Pt. 91.
 
I like pointing this out just to annoy other pilots :)

For passengers, it is always remarkably faster to fly GA regardless of the aircraft type. "On-time" is whatever time you arrive at the FBO. The plane waits for you. And you get there without having to do any work or get molested. Board, take off, land, leave, done.

For pilots, we often leave out some details for ourselves. To get from FDK to MMK visiting family, it is a 5.5 hour drive door to door. "But it is only a 2.8 hour flight in the 150!" I say. But let's compare apples to apples. To fly in the 150, it is really 4.3 hours. The reality for flying one's own self is actually only about 1 hour saved.:
- 0.4hrs drive to FDK
- 0.2hrs preflight and load up
- 0.1hrs startup an taxi
- 2.8hrs flying
- 0.1hrs taxi and shut down
- 0.2hrs unload and secure
- 0.2hrs rental car BS
- 0.3hrs drive to Mom's house

That said, you can very easily make the argument that everything from pre-flight through securing is fun, and therefore the time spent is irrelevant :)
 
Where should I go to find such a thing at reasonable pricing?

First, don't stick them on some clapped out piston 135 outfit. Second, unless you are providing 'image' as part of the reason, it is far cheaper to buy them 4 First Class tickets.
 
Look for a 310 on charter.

Do you seriously advocate putting clients/customers, coworkers, family, etc. on a 310? Unless you hate them, or are named as beneficiary, you gotta be kidding...
 
Do you seriously advocate putting clients/customers, coworkers, family, etc. on a 310? Unless you hate them, or are named as beneficiary, you gotta be kidding...

I know how to read a set of requirements and provide an accurate response. Apparently that's hard. :rolleyes:
 
Do you seriously advocate putting clients/customers, coworkers, family, etc. on a 310? Unless you hate them, or are named as beneficiary, you gotta be kidding...

You are wrong. The best way to impress someone is to cram them into an old tatty cabin with one of them sitting up front with the pilot. Then start up those old piston engines with some backfiring too if you can manage that. Extra points for some smoke. For the actual trip itself stay low below the weather and give them an experience they will never forget because everyone likes rollercoasters right? Take three times longer to get them versus flying first class on Delta and twice the price.

You're guaranteed to make an impression.

:rolleyes:
 
I like pointing this out just to annoy other pilots :)

For passengers, it is always remarkably faster to fly GA regardless of the aircraft type. "On-time" is whatever time you arrive at the FBO. The plane waits for you. And you get there without having to do any work or get molested. Board, take off, land, leave, done.

For pilots, we often leave out some details for ourselves. To get from FDK to MMK visiting family, it is a 5.5 hour drive door to door. "But it is only a 2.8 hour flight in the 150!" I say. But let's compare apples to apples. To fly in the 150, it is really 4.3 hours. The reality for flying one's own self is actually only about 1 hour saved.:
- 0.4hrs drive to FDK
- 0.2hrs preflight and load up
- 0.1hrs startup an taxi
- 2.8hrs flying
- 0.1hrs taxi and shut down
- 0.2hrs unload and secure
- 0.2hrs rental car BS
- 0.3hrs drive to Mom's house

That said, you can very easily make the argument that everything from pre-flight through securing is fun, and therefore the time spent is irrelevant :)

No annoyance here , you make a good point and we all need to keep this in mind when justifying based on time and cost. But you do need to keep in mind the comparison is not always the same apples to apples. :wink2: For example last week I took a trip from my home town airport in michigan to another in the same stupid state but as the cows fly it was a little bigger margin.

IE: KBIV - KSAW direct over the water at 130kts was around 2 hr with climb to 8000 included then add about 30 min for pre-flight, bathroom, taxi, and clearance then add 30 for travel to the airport and I ended up with about 3 hr and on the way home I caught a tail wind and shaved another 20 min off the flight.

Driving 440 miles around Lake Michigan and stopping for fuel and food puts the trip well over 8hr. :hairraise:

Another example is when visiting my sister in Milwaukee its a 45 minute flight (1-1/2 with driving to airport and fueling included) but sometimes a 5-6 hour drive if we hit chicago traffic. :confused:
 
You are wrong. The best way to impress someone is to cram them into an old tatty cabin with one of them sitting up front with the pilot. Then start up those old piston engines with some backfiring too if you can manage that. Extra points for some smoke. For the actual trip itself stay low below the weather and give them an experience they will never forget because everyone likes rollercoasters right? Take three times longer to get them versus flying first class on Delta and twice the price.

You're guaranteed to make an impression.

:rolleyes:

Nah, you need a Beech 18 for all of that, preferably one that's outfitted as a jump plane.
 
Do you seriously advocate putting clients/customers, coworkers, family, etc. on a 310? Unless you hate them, or are named as beneficiary, you gotta be kidding...

Actually I found my clients and co workers jump at the chance to get up in any little prop plane with me and travel. Especially if I put them in the right seat. Except for the ones that hate to fly regardless of the plane size. So I guess it all depends on who we are talking about. :dunno:
 
For pilots, we often leave out some details for ourselves. To get from FDK to MMK visiting family, it is a 5.5 hour drive door to door. "But it is only a 2.8 hour flight in the 150!" I say. But let's compare apples to apples. To fly in the 150, it is really 4.3 hours.

My drive/fly decision criteria:

2 hrs or less, drive wins every time
3hrs or more, fly wins every time
2-3hrs? The grey zone, depends on directness of driving route.

Of course, no matter how short or long, flying is much more relaxing than driving.
 
If the flight is 135 that is a no-go.

If you were to find a MEI with a 421 to perform the flight as instructional flight...... :stirpot: *

*Note for the traditionally humor and clueless, I do not advocate doing this as there are 12 ways til sunday for this to go wrong.
'Splain
 
My drive/fly decision criteria:

2 hrs or less, drive wins every time
3hrs or more, fly wins every time
2-3hrs? The grey zone, depends on directness of driving route.

Of course, no matter how short or long, flying is much more relaxing than driving.
2hrs of driving, agreed.
The 3hrs - is that 3hrs driving or 3hrs flying the same trip?

But I run through similar logic. It's a bit fuzzier after we purchased the Odyssey though. It's a nice road-trip machine.
 
I fly for Epps, so I appreciate all the recommendations. The Pilatus is our least expensive plane. I could guess about what the price would be, but I am usually better off leaving that up to our dispatchers who quote these trips every day.

It won't be cheaper than the airlines, but that isn't why you charter a plane. Convenience, schedule, destination, and "because I can" are better reasons.

PS, book the trip, I'd love to spend a weekend in DC. :)
 
:eek:

Friends don't let friends drive minivans. But you're not my friend so go ahead.

:nonod:

It's pimpalicious man. Maybe one day you'll have a wife and family too and there will be someone that you'll want to spend time with on a road trip, and there will actually be someone glad to see you at your destination.

But for now, there isn't.
 
I drive a minivan now. Minivans are cool.
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Part 135, no one touches the controls, buttons, switches, radios, etc. unless they are trained and qualified per the certificate. If you tried to call it an instructional flight, that would make the duck quack, as you would be disguising charter as instruction.
 
I fly for Epps, so I appreciate all the recommendations. The Pilatus is our least expensive plane. I could guess about what the price would be, but I am usually better off leaving that up to our dispatchers who quote these trips every day.

It won't be cheaper than the airlines, but that isn't why you charter a plane. Convenience, schedule, destination, and "because I can" are better reasons.

PS, book the trip, I'd love to spend a weekend in DC. :)

Oh well...I guess Sophia is too busy to return my email.
 

As Indigo said, no touchings of knobbens and levers during a 135 flight.

There have been some operators (one in GA iirc) who have advertised primary multi-engine instruction in planes like Queen Airs and 421s. 'You tell us where you want to go and we plan an instructional flight to get you there' is what one of them put on his website :eek: . You know that every charter operator in the area knows the plane and has the FSDO on speed dial. Sooner or later, one of these 'instructional flights' is going to be met on the ramp at the destination.

That being said, there is certainly nothing illegal about receiving instruction in something that is not a traditional ME trainer and on a flight with passengers. Anyone who buys a pressurized twin or turboprop and has to fly off 25 or 50hrs with a mentor pilot probably does so with their family or staff in the back. But that is different and easy to explain. That is a bit different from explaining an initial training flight that went to a point destination with passengers on board and where the 'instructor' returns with an empty plane after the 'lesson' is done.
 
That being said, there is certainly nothing illegal about receiving instruction in something that is not a traditional ME trainer and on a flight with passengers. Anyone who buys a pressurized twin or turboprop and has to fly off 25 or 50hrs with a mentor pilot probably does so with their family or staff in the back. But that is different and easy to explain. That is a bit different from explaining an initial training flight that went to a point destination with passengers on board and where the 'instructor' returns with an empty plane after the 'lesson' is done.

It also depends on the ownership and payment structure.

I had a Navajo customer who owned a business, needed to go places, and had employees who needed to go places. He paid all the bills, including my fee. Sometimes he was left seat, sometimes we had passengers, sometimes I flew the plane single pilot, and sometimes I ferried it solo either after a drop-off or for some other reason. It was all legit and clearly 91.
 
What's the minimum takeoff distance required for a BE-200 with 6 people and bags for a trip DC > ATL? 1hr IFR fuel planning requirement, of course.

Anyone?
 
What's the minimum takeoff distance required for a BE-200 with 6 people and bags for a trip DC > ATL? 1hr IFR fuel planning requirement, of course.

Anyone?

Balanced field requirement I would guess at 3200'
 
There are some unusual requirements for landing at DCA. These include crew vetting a limited number of airports you can depart from, and an armed guard on board.

Paul
 
What's the minimum takeoff distance required for a BE-200 with 6 people and bags for a trip DC > ATL? 1hr IFR fuel planning requirement, of course.

Anyone?

What's the weather in DC, do you require a takeoff alternate? What's the weather in ATL, how bad is it, how far is the alternate?
 
A lowly little Cherokee 140 turned a 3:45 driving trip into a 1:35 relaxing flight this weekend. Ditto on the return...4:20 of agony saved! And that was on a 240 sm trip (184 nm flying.)

Seldom does driving beat flying!

add the time to the airport, preflight, rent a car etc and you probably come even.
 
What's the weather in DC, do you require a takeoff alternate? What's the weather in ATL, how bad is it, how far is the alternate?

Sorry, I don't know know what a takeoff alternate is. I guess I will have to look that up.
 
What's the weather in DC, do you require a takeoff alternate? What's the weather in ATL, how bad is it, how far is the alternate?

Now that I've looked up takeoff alternate for 121 and 135 operations (thank you) I don't see how it's related? My question was to find out if there was a closer airport I can direct the charter to, rather than IAD or DCA as is common. Can I fit one into a 2,000 foot grass strip (for example)?

I was wondering if someone was either familiar with or had performance charts to give me a round about number.
 
Now that I've looked up takeoff alternate for 121 and 135 operations (thank you) I don't see how it's related? My question was to find out if there was a closer airport I can direct the charter to, rather than IAD or DCA as is common. Can I fit one into a 2,000 foot grass strip (for example)?

I was wondering if someone was either familiar with or had performance charts to give me a round about number.
Once you find someone who will do the charter for you they will determine whether or not they can operate out of any particular airport. They can also probably help you with the choice of airport if you tell them your final destination.

Just a guess, but having flown King Air 200s in the distant past, I would say no for the 2000' grass strip.
 
Now that I've looked up takeoff alternate for 121 and 135 operations (thank you) I don't see how it's related? My question was to find out if there was a closer airport I can direct the charter to, rather than IAD or DCA as is common. Can I fit one into a 2,000 foot grass strip (for example)?

I was wondering if someone was either familiar with or had performance charts to give me a round about number.

It's related because all of that is going to dictate how much fuel you need to carry, which is going to limit your runway performance, which is going to limit your airframe options for the given trip.

Buy them a 1st class ticket, it will be cheaper and more reliable.
 
Quick numbers we use are 4000' for the King Air 200 and 3000' feet for the Pilatus. Both airplanes can do better, but you really need get into the performance charts for the specific mission.
 
I am so glad that I did not do this. The guests from Atlanta could not come, not even airlines.

And at the prices I was being quoted it would have been a bad financial idea, even if it were cool.

On that note, I had an interesting dream that I was flying my family on our very own VLJ.
 
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