Charleston Jet - $2800 alternator on Cherokee

Ted DuPuis said:
I keep a spare left magneto and a spare starter with me at all times, as well as enough hand tools to replace either. I don't worry about an alternator since I have two, and I figure it's unlikely that both alternators will fail on me on one trip.

Since I have the accessories, any A&P can put them on. I even have the tools.
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as long as the left mag fails u r good to go!:D:D
 
comanchepilot said:
as long as the left mag fails u r good to go!:D:D
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In a pinch, a left mag can be used in replacement of a right mag. The reason for choosing a left mag is that it is the one that has your shower of sparks or impulse coupling, required for starting.

Put it on the right side and it works just as well.
 
And then flip one of the props to convert it to CR?:D
Ted DuPuis said:
In a pinch, a left mag can be used in replacement of a right mag. The reason for choosing a left mag is that it is the one that has your shower of sparks or impulse coupling, required for starting.

Put it on the right side and it works just as well.
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A lot of RV owners will help each other with repairs and spare parts. Lot's of times there is a "Call for Help" on the VAF forum and anyone near usually responds with what ever assistance they may need. Pretty amazing really, and a way to meet new aviation friends.

I've picked up parts in Omaha and hauled them to a little town airport to get an RV back in the air. Sold tires, tubes, and done repairs in my hangar.

I've got spare alternator, but don't carry it with me! :eek:

No A&P needed. :nono: ;)
 
Henning said:
R&R the prop is an hour. Cowl and uncowl is a half hour, R&R the alternator is 45 minutes including safety wire.
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Validate your times or admit you're pulling ***** out of thin air as usual.
 
pilot_dude said:
Validate your times or admit you're pulling ***** out of thin air as usual.
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Those are reasonable times. I could match them doing the exact same stuff on my RV.

Henning didn't mention the time spent diagnosing the problem or the time dealing with alternator logistics (who has one?, when will it get here?, do I need to return the core?), but I wouldn't expect those things to take more than a couple of hours.
 
What if it wasn't your plane? Would you know that about all of them?

What if it wasn't in your hangar? Would you go get it or try to fix it on the ramp?

What about another dozen or so things that might be reasonably expected to require time to accomplish? Any paperwork? Any parts research necessary? Any M/M research necessary? Any cleaning, tightening, rigging, testing, connectors, grounds, other stuff to be wrung out and checked? Any time required to troubleshoot and be sure it's the alternator vs regulator, wiring, or other electrical issues?

Engine runs necessary to validate or test? How many? How many techs required? If it's an intermittent problem, do they keep working until they find it or throw up their hands and quit?

Anybody who's BTDT knows all these things are to be expected from time to time, but nobody (AFAICT) knows exactly when/why/how they will manifest themselves. Some of them drive the shops crazy, including the good ones.

Not saying any, some or all of this stuff came into play on the job that's been mentioned, the bill could be nothing more than a blatant screwing.

But it's also nonsense to believe the "well I coulda done it in X" from people who have absolutely no clue about the facts surrounding the job.

kyleb said:
Those are reasonable times. I could match them doing the exact same stuff on my RV.

Henning didn't mention the time spent diagnosing the problem or the time dealing with alternator logistics (who has one?, when will it get here?, do I need to return the core?), but I wouldn't expect those things to take more than a couple of hours.
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Ted DuPuis said:
In a pinch, a left mag can be used in replacement of a right mag. The reason for choosing a left mag is that it is the one that has your shower of sparks or impulse coupling, required for starting.

Put it on the right side and it works just as well.
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in a pinch? its like the guy at the AOPA annual event that sells the 'wrap on sealer' for things like oil lines and tries to convince you in a pinch you can just wrap this stuff on your oil or gas line and off you go . . .

just kidding - I got why.
 
wabower said:
What if it wasn't your plane? Would you know that about all of them?

What if it wasn't in your hangar? Would you go get it or try to fix it on the ramp?

What about another dozen or so things that might be reasonably expected to require time to accomplish? Any paperwork? Any parts research necessary? Any M/M research necessary? Any cleaning, tightening, rigging, testing, connectors, grounds, other stuff to be wrung out and checked? Any time required to troubleshoot and be sure it's the alternator vs regulator, wiring, or other electrical issues?

Engine runs necessary to validate or test? How many? How many techs required? If it's an intermittent problem, do they keep working until they find it or throw up their hands and quit?

Anybody who's BTDT knows all these things are to be expected from time to time, but nobody (AFAICT) knows exactly when/why/how they will manifest themselves. Some of them drive the shops crazy, including the good ones.

Not saying any, some or all of this stuff came into play on the job that's been mentioned, the bill could be nothing more than a blatant screwing.

But it's also nonsense to believe the "well I coulda done it in X" from people who have absolutely no clue about the facts surrounding the job.
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I called out most of that stuff in my post and wrote that a couple of hours should take care of it. Obviously, intermittent problems can be a nightmare. Been there, done that.

One thing you brought up - Whether to do the job on the ramp or to do the job in the hangar? As the owner, I don't care. Do whichever works for the shop. But...Whatever works best for the shop should work best for the owner's pockebook.
 
I saw no reference to many potential time-killers. Are engine runs allowed on your ramp? Or theirs? Or only at specified areas on the airport? Ours are on the taxiway at the end opposite the departure line. Figure an hour labor best-case for each one with one guy at the controls and one on the ground. Sometimes they have the stuff they need to do more than one, sometimes they must return to the hangar for more work or parts and go again.

kyleb said:
I called out most of that stuff in my post and wrote that a couple of hours should take care of it. Obviously, intermittent problems can be a nightmare. Been there, done that.

One thing you brought up - Whether to do the job on the ramp or to do the job in the hangar? As the owner, I don't care. Do whichever works for the shop. But...Whatever works best for the shop should work best for the owner's pockebook.
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wabower said:
What if it wasn't your plane?...
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It's a Cherokee, not a Jenny. Every A&P in the known universe knows how to wrench a Cherokee.
What if it wasn't in your hangar? ...
Any paperwork? Any parts research necessary? Any M/M research necessary?
...
But it's also nonsense to believe the "well I coulda done it in X" from people who have absolutely no clue about the facts surrounding the job.
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Wayne, I understand where you are coming from, but 17 hours for an ALTERNATOR?

Again, in less time my shop diagnosed and replaced the problem starter (including ordering time and the STC for a Hartzell starter), diagnosed and replaced the entire exhaust (from the exhaust gaskets down, including time to get three quotes), rebuilt the left brake caliper and bled the system, replaced the cowl bushings and pins, replaced all the induction tubing, and swung the compass.
An A&P can do an ANNUAL on a Cherokee in less time than they want for an alternator replacement.
 
And I acknowledged that this deal may be the all time screwing and won't be surprised if it turns out that way.

But it may not be as bad as the only side of the story we've heard sounds, especially the half-ass chriping from the usual suspects who can fix whatever is broke before it rolls over the rails while washing and waxing at the same time. The trite little 'but he can do an annual in less time' has absolutely no relevance to this repair that could be simple as pie or harder than Chinese arithmetic.

What we actually know about this event is scant and certainly presented from the point of view of one of the participants, so hardly an unbiased reporting.

Until somebody knows what happened, everything else will be speculation and second-guessing, at which this group seems to excel.

PilotAlan said:
It's a Cherokee, not a Jenny. Every A&P in the known universe knows how to wrench a Cherokee.


Wayne, I understand where you are coming from, but 17 hours for an ALTERNATOR?

Again, in less time my shop diagnosed and replaced the problem starter (including ordering time and the STC for a Hartzell starter), diagnosed and replaced the entire exhaust (from the exhaust gaskets down, including time to get three quotes), rebuilt the left brake caliper and bled the system, replaced the cowl bushings and pins, replaced all the induction tubing, and swung the compass.
An A&P can do an ANNUAL on a Cherokee in less time than they want for an alternator replacement.
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wabower said:
And I acknowledged that this deal may be the all time screwing and won't be surprised if it turns out that way.

But it may not be as bad as the only side of the story we've heard sounds, especially the half-ass chriping from the usual suspects who can fix whatever is broke before it rolls over the rails while washing and waxing at the same time. The trite little 'but he can do an annual in less time' has absolutely no relevance to this repair that could be simple as pie or harder than Chinese arithmetic.

What we actually know about this event is scant and certainly presented from the point of view of one of the participants, so hardly an unbiased reporting.

Until somebody knows what happened, everything else will be speculation and second-guessing, at which this group seems to excel.
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That's why I said have them provide an accounting of the time, because the alternator work itself including prop for the belt is 5 hours. Perhaps they have a swipe card time recording system where the mechanic logs off and on each job as they move around and he forgot to swipe on and off the job he worked on for a day and a half waiting for the alternator?
 
comanchepilot said:
in a pinch? its like the guy at the AOPA annual event that sells the 'wrap on sealer' for things like oil lines and tries to convince you in a pinch you can just wrap this stuff on your oil or gas line and off you go . . .

just kidding - I got why.
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I know you're kidding, but just for the benefit of others so they know:

The mags will have the same timing, same performance, same everything. Only difference is you'll be putting a mag that has extra capability where it's not needed. No operational differences. So "in a pinch" might not be the best wording. My point is more I'd put it on to complete the trip and get home, and then repair the offending right mag, replace it, and put my spare left mag back in its home.

If it was a left mag that went out, I might just leave it.
 
Henning said:
That's why I said have them provide an accounting of the time, because the alternator work itself including prop for the belt is 5 hours. Perhaps they have a swipe card time recording system where the mechanic logs off and on each job as they move around and he forgot to swipe on and off the job he worked on for a day and a half waiting for the alternator?
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He also 'swiped in' on the phase check he worked on the remaining 12 hrs. They work just as hard as the lawyers with 25 billable hours per working day ;)

When I had my '$2400 alternator' (that included a replacement of the 4800hr exhaust and some gear work), the initial hours on the greasy time-card were pretty steep. When the owner of the shop transferred the hours onto the bill, he reduced the total considerably while mumbling 'I'm not gonna charge you for them drinking coffee'.
 
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weilke said:
He also 'swiped in' on the phase check he worked on the remaining 12 hrs. They work just as hard as the lawyers with 25 billable hours per working day ;)
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Not to derail this too far, but when I had a case working with a property lawyer, he advised on initial that it would be between 12-20 hours. I said I would be present for each hour of work in his office, or on the road and I asked him the schedule so I could be present. He then said he would no longer represent me. Well, I went to another atty office and explained the case again, and asked him if I could attend every work session. He was a bit hungrier and said we could work that out. The whole thing took less than 7 hours. I was there in the office or on the road for every hour. Saved me some serious cash, and it worked out in my favor nicely.
 
I won't work on jobs that require hourly billing or tracking. Too much hassle for too little benefit for both the client and me.

Scope of work will include everything it takes to get the job done to their satisfaction. Fee will be stated up front, payable half in advance and half on conclusion or whatever payment schedule makes sense for everybody. Job is guaranteed with no surprises at the end.

If you need or want it done by the hour, I'm not your guy.
 
wabower said:
I won't work on jobs that require hourly billing or tracking. Too much hassle for too little benefit for both the client and me.

Scope of work will include everything it takes to get the job done to their satisfaction. Fee will be stated up front, payable half in advance and half on conclusion or whatever payment schedule makes sense for everybody. Job is guaranteed with no surprises at the end.

If you need or want it done by the hour, I'm not your guy.
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So, you pull your plane up to the shop hangar with the charging system not working. Before they can hand you a "scope of work" they have to diagnose the problem. Charging systems are simple, but they have to uncowl the plane, start it and and pull out the Fluke meter and test a couple of circuits and come up with "Failed Alternator". Would you accept more than an hour's billing for this phase? Now they prepare a 'scope of work' for you to replace the alternator and it comes up to 16hrs, would that seem correct to you?
 
If I pulled up, that means it's running. In which case, none of the above.

Henning said:
So, you pull your plane up to the shop hangar with the charging system not working. Before they can hand you a "scope of work" they have to diagnose the problem. Charging systems are simple, but they have to uncowl the plane, start it and and pull out the Fluke meter and test a couple of circuits and come up with "Failed Alternator". Would you accept more than an hour's billing for this phase? Now they prepare a 'scope of work' for you to replace the alternator and it comes up to 16hrs, would that seem correct to you?
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Another twin owner friend had this same exchange on redboards 8-9 years ago and this thread gave me Dujavu....




Ted DuPuis said:
In a pinch, a left mag can be used in replacement of a right mag. The reason for choosing a left mag is that it is the one that has your shower of sparks or impulse coupling, required for starting.

Put it on the right side and it works just as well.
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Yeah, they only have about 15 minutes until they quit. Then the prop curls back and eventually the engine reverts to a flat-head Ford.

If the engine is running, is it necessary to pull up anywhere other than your own hangar?

Henning said:
Seriously? You think the alternator/charging system failing will cause the engine to quit running?
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That right there might be the real value of experimental. Many, many many pilots at airports are complete butt heads to each other. Not all and the ones that are not are worth meeting but the rest you just wish they would speed past that traffic cop at the corner.

Geico266 said:
A lot of RV owners will help each other with repairs and spare parts. Lot's of times there is a "Call for Help" on the VAF forum and anyone near usually responds with what ever assistance they may need. Pretty amazing really, and a way to meet new aviation friends.

I've picked up parts in Omaha and hauled them to a little town airport to get an RV back in the air. Sold tires, tubes, and done repairs in my hangar.

I've got spare alternator, but don't carry it with me! :eek:

No A&P needed. :nono: ;)
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wabower said:
Yeah, they only have about 15 minutes until they quit. Then the prop curls back and eventually the engine reverts to a flat-head Ford.

If the engine is running, is it necessary to pull up anywhere other than your own hangar?
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Yeah, unless you only fly into your home field and your maintenance guy comes to your hangar. In the OP, the failure happened on a trip away from home. Normally when one has a failure away from home, one pulls up to a maintenance hangar.

So just humor me, if you get an estimate to change your alternator that says 16 hours, are you good with that?I'll even give it that it's in your hangar and needs to be tugged both ways. Does it seem reasonable to you?
 
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No. And knowing the ineptitude of most shops insofar as electrical work is concerned, I wouldn't bother to ask for a quote.

Henning said:
Yeah, unless you only fly into your home field and your maintenance guy comes to your hangar. In the OP, the failure happened on a trip away from home. Normally when one has a failure away from home, one pulls up to a maintenance hangar.

So just humor me, if you get an estimate to change your alternator that says 16 hours, are you good with that?I'll even give it that it's in your hangar and needs to be tugged both ways. Does it seem reasonable to you?
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wabower said:
No. And knowing the ineptitude of most shops insofar as electrical work is concerned, I wouldn't bother to ask for a quote.
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So you think it's ok to be charged for 11 hrs of ineptitude? (5 to repair, 1 to tow your plane around)
 
As a data point, last week as I was taking off from my home airport my alternator failed. Since I was at home I just flew the pattern and landed. The shop checked it and said the alternator had to be replaced. Turns out they had one in stock and they had the plane back in about 3 hours. Cost was 500.00 total.
 
jtheune said:
As a data point, last week as I was taking off from my home airport my alternator failed. Since I was at home I just flew the pattern and landed. The shop checked it and said the alternator had to be replaced. Turns out they had one in stock and they had the plane back in about 3 hours. Cost was 500.00 total.
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This is what I mentioned way back. If a shop with trained people will take 3 hours, and a shop with idiots working will take 6 hours a shop that takes 17 hours(~3X idiot time) for that job will not stand in front of the bar of law(or -- small claims court which is a reasonable facsimile thereof).

Get 3-4 estimates, and take them to court. If you want to call and discuss first that's fine, but have your data ready and this should be a slam dunk.
 
wabower said:
The answer was no. Do you read well?
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I read fine, you said you wouldn't bother with an estimate which kinda contradicts your former scope of work deal. Ok, I was just wondering since you seemed pretty adamant about defending the bill.
 
No, muscle-mind, you asked if I would be happy with the estimate. The answer was no. Which word don't you understand?


Henning said:
I read fine, you said you wouldn't bother with an estimate which kinda contradicts your former scope of work deal. Ok, I was just wondering since you seemed pretty adamant about defending the bill.
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Don't be surprised when you lose. The shop will say that would have been their estimate as well, if you had asked for one.

docmirror said:
This is what I mentioned way back. If a shop with trained people will take 3 hours, and a shop with idiots working will take 6 hours a shop that takes 17 hours(~3X idiot time) for that job will not stand in front of the bar of law(or -- small claims court which is a reasonable facsimile thereof).

Get 3-4 estimates, and take them to court. If you want to call and discuss first that's fine, but have your data ready and this should be a slam dunk.
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wabower said:
Don't be surprised when you lose. The shop will say that would have been their estimate as well, if you had asked for one.
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Post 15: "Now, having said that, did you approve a repair with no stop limit or estimate? If you did, then you are going to have a hard time in court. "

The OP never answered. If I were to lose this because of no estimate, that would be all I need to know about that court system. Hell, I even won a case in San Diego court as the defendant and that's pretty much unheard of.
 
I've already concluded this bill couldn't have been a normal course of business transaction and that something happened to drive up the cost. Otherwise there's no rational explanation.

docmirror said:
Post 15: "Now, having said that, did you approve a repair with no stop limit or estimate? If you did, then you are going to have a hard time in court. "

The OP never answered. If I were to lose this because of no estimate, that would be all I need to know about that court system. Hell, I even won a case in San Diego court as the defendant and that's pretty much unheard of.
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Yeah, the prop was welded on, the cowl screws were all glued in, the alternator was cast into the crankcase, and the belt was unobtanium. Justify 17 hours. They could get a job with the feds.
 
wabower said:
I've already concluded this bill couldn't have been a normal course of business transaction and that something happened to drive up the cost. Otherwise there's no rational explanation.
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Why does the explanation have to be rational? It's free market economics.
 
Have you read the shop notes and tech notes for the work-order? You holding back information about what happened? I can show you a 30+ hour job on a P-210 alternator as well, but you obviously know that's impossible to defend and that the shop was either crooked or inept.



docmirror said:
Yeah, the prop was welded on, the cowl screws were all glued in, the alternator was cast into the crankcase, and the belt was unobtanium. Justify 17 hours. They could get a job with the feds.
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The invoice had no explanation of why it took so long. They were obviously comprehensive in their billing so I can assume any parts they used would have been accounted for. The only part mentioned on the bill was an alternator. They did not even charge for the fuse that took $170 to change. They likely pulled it from my onboard supply of glass fuses. They did not change the belt. Did not have to drill out or replace any broken bolts. According to the bill it was just a routine alternator exchange. I have not called them for an explanation because my partner handled this one. But he has complained to them and they have not told him any extra work had to be performed.

This is my partners home field when he is using the plane. He goes between there and W29 and spends an equal amount of time at each. No estimate was given. It was a small job, not an engine overhaul that we would send out for quotes. I personally try to deal with honest people, if they tell me it took them x amount to fix it I pay them. Sometimes I get a little surprised by a bill, but such is life for me not wasting all the time running around getting quotes when I could be working. A few bucks here or there is no big deal. What made this one a big deal is because my BS transponder flashed. I want to know specifically if this company is known for this, and if I am correct in thinking this is BS. I am far from an expert on planes so I honestly don't know if it is possible for it to take this long. I did do an owner assisted annual last year after another shop tried to molest me, and to me it looked like the alternator was a pretty simple thing to replace.
 
It's BS, maybe it was supposed to be 1.7hrs and someone missed a decimal place.
 
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