Charleston Jet - $2800 alternator on Cherokee

The first mistake was letting any shop with the word "Jet" on the company logo touch a Cherokee...
 
bnt83 said:
The first mistake was letting any shop with the word "Jet" on the company logo touch a Cherokee...
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I don't know, they aren't all bad, but I typically turn my own wrenches and pay them for shop space and facilities and a sign off, which are often given for free since I bought fuel there and brought a box of donuts when I asked them about what I needed. Even the Signature FBOs that everybody bad mouths I've never had issues with. They have given me free nitrogen to top up a strut and typically I can negotiate the price of gas to within a nickel of the best regional price by just asking what the price is on 100+ gallons, worst I managed was a quarter over and that was on a field where they had a fuel monopoly. I've also had them stick my plane in the hangar for free when a storm was coming and I was still in town in their Mercedes crew car.
 
tmyers said:
What would you feel a reasonable fee for an oil change on a 4 cyl lycoming should be?
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Depends on circumstances.

If oil and filter are priced separately, does number of cylinders matter?

Is this to be part of our ongoing business and billed accordingly, or as a promo loss-leader for other work?

Will we actually observe our techs doing the work and record the process for time and billing purposes or accept the pretense that it can be done in an hour or so?
 
tmyers said:
What would you feel a reasonable fee for an oil change on a 4 cyl lycoming should be?
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wabower said:
Depends on circumstances.

If oil and filter are priced separately, does number of cylinders matter?

Is this to be part of our ongoing business and billed accordingly, or as a promo loss-leader for other work?

Will we actually observe our techs doing the work and record the process for time and billing purposes or accept the pretense that it can be done in an hour or so?
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Tim you should expect an answer like this from Wayne. Of course it depends on circumstances. But once again he didn't answer your question because he knows that. Not before he pointed out that your shop would go broke doing that.....:rolleyes2:
 
At the very least you have learned never to take your Cherokee to a shop that has the word "Jet" in it's name.
 
tmyers said:
What would you feel a reasonable fee for an oil change on a 4 cyl lycoming should be?
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50 per hour, you bring the oil and filter. and remove the old oil.
 
I left my house about 930a and had changed the oil [ok, I left it draining when I left the night before], replaced the oil, replaced the filter, took it out, leak checked it, and pushed it back in the hangar, safety wired the filter and got back to my house in time for a noon conference call - and its 7 miles away. By bicycle.

100 minutes maybe total? It takes more time to put the oil in that do anything else.

I'm thinking an alternator on a Cherokee / Comanche etc should take maybe 2 hours - and thats if you drop the bolts several times and need to crawl around and find them.
 
Henning said:
I don't know, they aren't all bad, but I typically turn my own wrenches and pay them for shop space and facilities and a sign off, which are often given for free since I bought fuel there and brought a box of donuts when I asked them about what I needed. Even the Signature FBOs that everybody bad mouths I've never had issues with. They have given me free nitrogen to top up a strut and typically I can negotiate the price of gas to within a nickel of the best regional price by just asking what the price is on 100+ gallons, worst I managed was a quarter over and that was on a field where they had a fuel monopoly. I've also had them stick my plane in the hangar for free when a storm was coming and I was still in town in their Mercedes crew car.
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You forgot to throw in the BJ from the counter girl......... As long as you're bloviating might as well go all out.
 
Not to rub salt in it, but by way of comparison, I had the alt quit in my Cherokee 140 at MHT. I believe the entire bill came to around $900+/-, including a new 12/70 by overnight freight.

Unfortunately, I tink you been had. I'd talk to somebody and register your displeasure.
 
comanchepilot said:
I'm thinking an alternator on a Cherokee / Comanche etc should take maybe 2 hours - and thats if you drop the bolts several times and need to crawl around and find them.
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Yeah. Even with removal/reinstall of the prop, you should be under 4 hours.

By way of comparison, my certified repair station flat does an ANNUAL in 15 hours.
This year, on the number of hours your A&P wants for an alternator, my shop r/r'd the starter, replaced the entire exhaust (from the exhaust gaskets down), rebuilt the left brake caliper and bled the system, and replaced the cowl bushings and pins, replaced all the induction tubing, and swung the compass.
 
Henning said:
I'd ask for documentation of the time. Many states have departments for repair shop fraud. 17hrs to replace an alternator? Even if they had to pull the prop to change the belt it should not have been more than 5 if even that. A reasonably skilled mechanic doing just the alternator could do it in an hour and a half.
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Troubleshooting the alternator on a 172 today, had it off and on at least twice in the two hours I worked on it
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Not to rub salt in it, but by way of comparison, I had the alt quit in my Cherokee 140 at MHT. I believe the entire bill came to around $900+/-, including a new 12/70 by overnight freight.

Unfortunately, I tink you been had. I'd talk to somebody and register your displeasure.
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This number I like including the parts and overnight freight.
 
When you go to a "JET center "you have to expect to pay their prices,stick with the little guys ,if given no choice I feel your pain.
 
There's no question that the shop would go broke, the only question is how long it would take.

What circumstances would you consider relevant to the amount of time required?

How many line items would the tech expect to see if each task were listed separately?

How many techs would be required to do it properly?
flyingmoose said:
Tim you should expect an answer like this from Wayne. Of course it depends on circumstances. But once again he didn't answer your question because he knows that. Not before he pointed out that your shop would go broke doing that.....:rolleyes2:
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I really have to watch my tounge when it comes to the Jet Shop. I know exactly what the outcome will be when a PA-46 ends up in one of those shops. The owners often feel comfortable and tell me that it's okay they work on jets.

The management will not care about your aircraft or the final bill. The mechanics will often feel that this little airplane is below them. I remember when I ran a shop in CA. One of my mechanics came in and told me he was hired to work on King-Airs and I should pay him more to work on the lowly recipes. I had some new jobs for him!

I'm very sorry for your lousy experience. At least it worked when it left.
 
Henning said:
Except for the fact that as an owner one can drive the alternator down the street to Mike's Auto Electric and get if fixed for $75.:rolleyes:
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Maybe at home. Harder to do on the road.
 
My first serious traveling machine had an alternator-conversion kit but never seemed to be quite right in spite of constant twiddling and fiddling. I carried a spare alternator in the bag compartment along with a belt, spark plug, vacuum pump plus tools, safety wire and a few other failure-prone items. To save time I just peeled the foil Cessna sticker off so the Ford label would be visible when I took it to the alternator shop, then reattached the sticker when it went back on the plane.

Chip Sylverne said:
Maybe at home. Harder to do on the road.
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Henning said:
Depends where, in the middle of nowhere,ok, but any town of any size has an auto electric shop.
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It's not so much finding an alternator shop, but having the testicular fortitude to start peeling parts off in the transient parking area of an airport where no one knows who the hell you are.

" uh, pardon me, but can I borrow a 9/16" box end wrench?"

There's always a premium for away from home breakdowns. Though some places are great. RAM aviation at Ormond Beach fiexed up an ASI problem for me for $30. An A&P in Georgetown, Ky, got me back on my way after I lost a jug for no more than it would have cost me at home.

I guess I oughta carry more tools. But $2,800 is airport robbery for an alt.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
It's not so much finding an alternator shop, but having the testicular fortitude to start peeling parts off in the transient parking area of an airport where no one knows who the hell you are.

" uh, pardon me, but can I borrow a 9/16" box end wrench?"

There's always a premium for away from home breakdowns. Though some places are great. RAM aviation at Ormond Beach fiexed up an ASI problem for me for $30. An A&P in Georgetown, Ky, got me back on my way after I lost a jug for no more than it would have cost me at home.

I guess I oughta carry more tools. But $2,800 is airport robbery for an alt.
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I have more good luck than bad with it, but then I pull my tool box out and it has most the tools I need, including a compression tester lol, my wrenches and such are Snap On... The 'We mechanics are kin' thing happens.:lol:
 
RotorAndWing said:
Except those mechanics have actual ratings to allow them the privilege.
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LOL, never met one that worried about it and I've worked at a CRS and for an IA. All the certificate is for is paperwork, and back when I worked for the CRS, I could sign off on the CRS's number with no rating.
 
Henning said:
LOL, never met one that worried about it and I've worked at a CRS and for an IA. All the certificate is for is paperwork, and back when I worked for the CRS, I could sign off on the CRS's number with no rating.
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LOL, when you can actually achieve an A&P rating on your own merits come back and tell us about it.

Henning said:
All the certificate is for is paperwork.
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And to exercise the privileges.
 
yachtjim said:
My partner recently had the alternator fail while he was in SC. Took the plane to Charleston Jet to have the alternator replaced. The final Bill was $2800! They charged $170 to replace a fuse. $235 for misc. 17 hours labor. $240 for shipping! I talked to my shop in MD and he said it is a 4 hour job at worst. I am thinking it should be an $800 bill. What do you guys/gals think?
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I'd contact the shop and complain about the labor. I think the consensus is that they must have got the figure wrong. The question I'd ask my partner was did he get an estimate or did he toss the keys and say fix it?
 
jonnyjetprop said:
I'd contact the shop and complain about the labor. I think the consensus is that they must have got the figure wrong. The question I'd ask my partner was did he get an estimate or did he toss the keys and say fix it?
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An estimate doesn't limit your exposure. "Yes, I estimated $0.50, and the real charge was $1,000. But it was a non-binding estimate and you gave me permission to fix the problem. As it turned out, the problem wasn't a bad fuse, it was a ....."

Define the scope of the inspection or repair and get a quote. In writing.

If you don't, you're subject to unfortunate surprises.
 
kyleb said:
An estimate doesn't limit your exposure. "Yes, I estimated $0.50, and the real charge was $1,000. But it was a non-binding estimate and you gave me permission to fix the problem. As it turned out, the problem wasn't a bad fuse, it was a ....."

Define the scope of the inspection or repair and get a quote. In writing.

If you don't, you're subject to unfortunate surprises.
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well, thats not really the case - most mech types are pretty decent guys [and gals now] and when they end up blowing through an estimate feel bad enough about it to work with you a little bit -
 
Henning said:
LOL, never met one that worried about it and I've worked at a CRS and for an IA. All the certificate is for is paperwork, and back when I worked for the CRS, I could sign off on the CRS's number with no rating.
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I have, several times when I was in need of a tool I wasn't going to get it until I mentioned I was an A&P
 
comanchepilot said:
well, thats not really the case - most mech types are pretty decent guys [and gals now] and when they end up blowing through an estimate feel bad enough about it to work with you a little bit -
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Or at least keep you in the loop, "hey I found xxx"
 
wabower said:
Based on what? The same book you use to quote 20 minutes for wheel bearings?
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R&I the prop on a Cherokee takes an hour, I would expect they would charge 1.5. R&R Alternator would be another hour. Belt (with prop, and alt removed) would be about 2 min. so we'll give them .2 (12 min),
R&I cowling would be another hour (most likely less) So we've got a total of 3.7 hours flagged time. Now if they screw off and take all day, they still should only get paid for 3.7, and If they get it done in an hour, they should still get 3.7.

20 min for wheel bearings on one wheel, with spats removed isn't totally out of the ballpark, but I'd like to see .5, or .6.
 
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You just broke the code. When you're estimating the time required for any MX job, when do the the meter start?

If it's an oil change, where's the plane? His hangar or ours? Do we tow or taxi? He thinks it takes 5 minutes to taxi, we know it takes at least a half-hour to tow because ground puts all the towed planes at the bottom of the movement list.

Do we have the correct combination, or has he changed it? Will the hangar doors move by hand? How many battery chargers, engine heaters and other doo-dads do we need to disconnect and move to get it out of the hangar? Is the airport car in the way? Will it start? Will the plane start?

bluerooster said:
R&I the prop on a Cherokee takes an hour, I would expect they would charge 1.5. R&R Alternator would be another hour. Belt (with prop, and alt removed) would be about 2 min. so we'll give them .2 (12 min),
R&I cowling would be another hour (most likely less) So we've got a total of 2.7 hours flagged time. Now if they screw off and take all day, they still should only get paid for 2.7, and If they get it done in an hour, they should still get 2.7.

20 min for wheel bearings on one wheel, with spats removed isn't totally out of the ballpark, but I'd like to see .5, or .6.
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wabower said:
You just broke the code. When you're estimating the time required for any MX job, when do the the meter start?

If it's an oil change, where's the plane? His hangar or ours? Do we tow or taxi? He thinks it takes 5 minutes to taxi, we know it takes at least a half-hour to tow because ground puts all the towed planes at the bottom of the movement list.

Do we have the correct combination, or has he changed it? Will the hangar doors move by hand? How many battery chargers, engine heaters and other doo-dads do we need to disconnect and move to get it out of the hangar? Is the airport car in the way? Will it start? Will the plane start?
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What code?
Yer splittin' hairs here.
Dude was soaked some un-godly number of dollars for an alternator, and fuse. I doubt that his hangar was involved, and probably taxied it up to the door of the shop. I don't know.
But the fact remains that the time to replace an alternator with belt on a Cherokee should be about 4 hours and the fuse should be about .1 plus fuse (about $1) $240 for shipping is usurious. I can ship a whole engine for $250.
 
No hairs being split here, pards, just examples of how things can turn out and how much billing should be attached.

The code regards the rest of this thread that discusses cost of mx and how they are billed. Read back through and you'll see them.


bluerooster said:
What code?
Yer splittin' hairs here.
Dude was soaked some un-godly number of dollars for an alternator, and fuse. I doubt that his hangar was involved, and probably taxied it up to the door of the shop. I don't know.
But the fact remains that the time to replace an alternator with belt on a Cherokee should be about 4 hours and the fuse should be about .1 plus fuse (about $1) $240 for shipping is usurious. I can ship a whole engine for $250.
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OK so my labor times flow with the consensus.

Now the only variable is the rate, @ 500/hr I guess $2400 for an alt change (including $240 shipping) is not too far off the mark?
 
Well, the head guy said to get right on it because the plane was AOG. :p

bluerooster said:
OK so my labor times flow with the consensus.

Now the only variable is the rate, @ 500/hr I guess $2400 for an alt change (including $240 shipping) is not too far off the mark?
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Must have charged for Gomer Pile to run into Raleigh and pickup the part.

Henning said:
I'd ask for documentation of the time. Many states have departments for repair shop fraud. 17hrs to replace an alternator? Even if they had to pull the prop to change the belt it should not have been more than 5 if even that. A reasonably skilled mechanic doing just the alternator could do it in an hour and a half.
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I paid $475 for a battery when visiting California on vacation.

I learned quickly to IRAN or OH accessories on my run out engine to prevent getting stuck in far away air fields. The engine never let me down but the accessories are notorious for getting you stuck elsewhere.
 
I keep a spare left magneto and a spare starter with me at all times, as well as enough hand tools to replace either. I don't worry about an alternator since I have two, and I figure it's unlikely that both alternators will fail on me on one trip.

Since I have the accessories, any A&P can put them on. I even have the tools.
 
comanchepilot said:
well, thats not really the case - most mech types are pretty decent guys [and gals now] and when they end up blowing through an estimate feel bad enough about it to work with you a little bit -
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Most are. The "Daddy needs to pay the mortgage" FBO when you're away from home has you by the short hairs and knows they will never see you again. They may not be as scrupulous as the service at your home field.

I'm getting a quote and instructing the FBO to call me before they do anything beyond the quote. I don't like surprises.
 
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