Challenging a court's jurisdiction? (Lawyers??)

Sooo....i dont know if this has been answered yet...so here i go:

1. Because State Troopers have statewide juristiction and are assigned large tracts to work, the citations that they issue will goto court in a magistate court that is within that juristiction, not the municipality, even if the citation was issued in the municipality. The municipality only has juristiction over it's own officers and "territory". Also, because of the fact they they are state troopers, the case has to be tried in a court that has juristiction over state cases, which municipalities do not have. Thats why it is going to the county.

2. The right to a jurt trial is a constitutionally protected right, regardless of state or type of infraction. You ALWAYS have the right to a trial by jury...but...you have to request it, or your attorney on your behalf. To say that is not a right in Colorado is inaccurate. If you do have a jury trial, be prepared to pay the full fine and take all the points if you are convicted.

3. The State Trooper does not need a reason to measure your speed. Driving a motor vehicle on a state roadway is enough reason. They can also randomly check tags, set up checkpoints and so on.

4. The stopwatch method is accurate if the math is done correctly. I'm pretty sure, as I have extensive experience here, that unless they make something specifically designed to be used from an aircraft, that radar will not work. Lidar definitely wont if the device is in motion.

5. It would be very easy to put reasonable doubt into a jury's mind in this....how do they know that the trooper on the ground got the right car? How did the aircraft identify your car to the trooper? If there is a device used other than a clock, when was it last calibrated and where are the records showing such? How many other cars of similar color and size were close to you at the same time? All you need is reasonable doubt, not a game changing slam dunk.

The only real way that any of this matters is if you get the jury trial. The judge has heard all of this plenty of times before, and it likely will not sway them in a traffic case. A jury though will likely see it your way.

Based on the date of the original post, i imagine this has already been to court. If so, what was the outcome if you dont mind my asking...


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SPAJC said:
Sooo....i dont know if this has been answered yet...so here i go:

1. Because State Troopers have statewide juristiction and are assigned large tracts to work, the citations that they issue will goto court in a magistate court that is within that juristiction, not the municipality, even if the citation was issued in the municipality. The municipality only has juristiction over it's own officers and "territory". Also, because of the fact they they are state troopers, the case has to be tried in a court that has juristiction over state cases, which municipalities do not have. Thats why it is going to the county.

2. The right to a jurt trial is a constitutionally protected right, regardless of state or type of infraction. You ALWAYS have the right to a trial by jury...but...you have to request it, or your attorney on your behalf. To say that is not a right in Colorado is inaccurate. If you do have a jury trial, be prepared to pay the full fine and take all the points if you are convicted.

3. The State Trooper does not need a reason to measure your speed. Driving a motor vehicle on a state roadway is enough reason. They can also randomly check tags, set up checkpoints and so on.

4. The stopwatch method is accurate if the math is done correctly. I'm pretty sure, as I have extensive experience here, that unless they make something specifically designed to be used from an aircraft, that radar will not work. Lidar definitely wont if the device is in motion.

5. It would be very easy to put reasonable doubt into a jury's mind in this....how do they know that the trooper on the ground got the right car? How did the aircraft identify your car to the trooper? If there is a device used other than a clock, when was it last calibrated and where are the records showing such? How many other cars of similar color and size were close to you at the same time? All you need is reasonable doubt, not a game changing slam dunk.

The only real way that any of this matters is if you get the jury trial. The judge has heard all of this plenty of times before, and it likely will not sway them in a traffic case. A jury though will likely see it your way.

Based on the date of the original post, i imagine this has already been to court. If so, what was the outcome if you dont mind my asking...


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Click to expand...

The same rule set that prohibits discovery also prohibits jury trials for traffic offenses...
 
SPAJC said:
Sooo....i dont know if this has been answered yet...so here i go:

1. Because State Troopers have statewide juristiction and are assigned large tracts to work, the citations that they issue will goto court in a magistate court that is within that juristiction, not the municipality, even if the citation was issued in the municipality. The municipality only has juristiction over it's own officers and "territory". Also, because of the fact they they are state troopers, the case has to be tried in a court that has juristiction over state cases, which municipalities do not have. Thats why it is going to the county.

2. The right to a jurt trial is a constitutionally protected right, regardless of state or type of infraction. You ALWAYS have the right to a trial by jury...but...you have to request it, or your attorney on your behalf. To say that is not a right in Colorado is inaccurate. If you do have a jury trial, be prepared to pay the full fine and take all the points if you are convicted.

3. The State Trooper does not need a reason to measure your speed. Driving a motor vehicle on a state roadway is enough reason. They can also randomly check tags, set up checkpoints and so on.

4. The stopwatch method is accurate if the math is done correctly. I'm pretty sure, as I have extensive experience here, that unless they make something specifically designed to be used from an aircraft, that radar will not work. Lidar definitely wont if the device is in motion.

5. It would be very easy to put reasonable doubt into a jury's mind in this....how do they know that the trooper on the ground got the right car? How did the aircraft identify your car to the trooper? If there is a device used other than a clock, when was it last calibrated and where are the records showing such? How many other cars of similar color and size were close to you at the same time? All you need is reasonable doubt, not a game changing slam dunk.

The only real way that any of this matters is if you get the jury trial. The judge has heard all of this plenty of times before, and it likely will not sway them in a traffic case. A jury though will likely see it your way.

Based on the date of the original post, i imagine this has already been to court. If so, what was the outcome if you dont mind my asking...


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Click to expand...
I don't know about Colorado, or South Carolina either, but in Iowa you don't get a jury trial for minor traffic offenses. It just isn't an option.
 
SPAJC said:
2. The right to a jurt trial is a constitutionally protected right, regardless of state or type of infraction. You ALWAYS have the right to a trial by jury...but...you have to request it, or your attorney on your behalf. To say that is not a right in Colorado is inaccurate. If you do have a jury trial, be prepared to pay the full fine and take all the points if you are convicted.
Click to expand...

Most traffic tickets are civil offenses. Due process is required but not a jury. Due process is pretty limited since it is assumed the LEO is honest and correct and the accused is a poor guilty bastard. Just the way it is.
 
I stand corrected....just looked it up. You are right about traffic offenses and jury trials. I apologize for my bad info....we have jury trials all the time for traffic offenses. I believed it to be a right because you are in court as a defendant. I didnt realize that there was a difference between traffic and criminal in the aspect of rights to a jury trial. Now i know, so, thanks for the info. We also have to provide discovery for traffic offenses here, so apparently it differs from state to state. News to me. Apologize again for the bad info on that.....


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Ask for a public defender. They wont give you one, but ask anyway. then request a two month continuance. Then ask to talk to the DA or whoever is in charge in the "back room". Be nice to the judge. Wear a tie. Ask the DA if he will plea it down. If he will, take it.

Ask the court clerk to give you copies of all the papers in your case file. Get friendly with her!

If you do decide to fight it tell the court to ask the police to produce all the paperwork and cerification documents for the speed measuring equipment used.

Hope the police don't show up, if so ask for a dismissal. If the police do show up hope they don't have current documents proving compliance of equipment. Ask for another dismissal. Ask for another continuance to get a professional to examine the police paperwork.

Put the police on the witness stand. Ask him about the cop car or plane he used. Ask if it ever needs maintenance because something is broken. Ask him if the speed measuring equipment ever needs maintenance. Say "That is all!" and turn away before he can answer that one.

Make a friendly pest of yourself. Sometimes if the judge thinks you are clever and witty and determined they will let you off. Don't be arrogant. Don't lie. If you keep delaying it, sometimes it will just go away.

Ask for a dismissal or continuance every other sentence.

Be nice to the judge.

If you lose, ask how to file an appeal.
 
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Maxmosbey said:
I don't know about Colorado, or South Carolina either, but in Iowa you don't get a jury trial for minor traffic offenses. It just isn't an option.
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Apparently South Carolina provides for jury trials even for minor traffic offenses. He's just making the common error of thinking his local procedure is universal.
 
Actually it has nothing to do with local procedure. I am not naive enough to believe that because it is so here that it must be so everywhere. I simply had the understanding that the right to discovery and jury trial was constitutionally protected regardless of whether it was a traffic offense or criminal offense.
It specifies criminal in the constitution. That is the part that I had forgotten about. Yes, in SC we do extend the right to discovery and jury trials to traffic offenses. We dedicate one week every month in my municipality just for the jury trials. Again, apologies for that mistake in info.


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I think if I had to sit a jury trial as a jurist for a traffic violation I'd vote guilty just because the bastage made me sit through it.

Prolly why I'm not juror material.
 
docmirror said:
I think if I had to sit a jury trial as a jurist for a traffic violation I'd vote guilty just because the bastage made me sit through it.

Prolly why I'm not juror material.
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I am just the opposite....

As a juror, I would listen to both sides, weigh the evidence and vote accordingly..... All the while I would be hoping the motorist would present a compelling case and the LEO would step on his dick through the trial...

And, I would base my finding on beyond reasonable doubt... not the preponderance of the evidence as I consider a ticket a criminal offense, not a civil one..

Just read all the posts here. The vast majority say the state will win regardless of the evidence....


That needs to STOP....:mad2::mad:
 
docmirror said:
I think if I had to sit a jury trial as a jurist for a traffic violation I'd vote guilty just because the bastage made me sit through it.



Prolly why I'm not juror material.
Click to expand...


You wouldn't believe how long you can draw out a jury trial for a petty traffic ticket. They are requested for everything down to even a seatbelt ticket..


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SPAJC said:
You wouldn't believe how long you can draw out a jury trial for a petty traffic ticket. They are requested for everything down to even a seatbelt ticket..


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Click to expand...

So... that one week a month dedicated to jury /traffic cases.. Do they use the same jury throughout the day or pick a new one for each trial ??:dunno:
 
docmirror said:
...because the bastage made me...
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this-is-a-name-i-have-not-heard-in-a-long-time.jpg
 
coloradobluesky said:
Ask for a public defender. They wont give you one, but ask anyway. then request a two month continuance. Then ask to talk to the DA or whoever is in charge in the "back room". Be nice to the judge. Wear a tie. Ask the DA if he will plea it down. If he will, take it.

Ask the court clerk to give you copies of all the papers in your case file. Get friendly with her!

If you do decide to fight it tell the court to ask the police to produce all the paperwork and cerification documents for the speed measuring equipment used.

Hope the police don't show up, if so ask for a dismissal. If the police do show up hope they don't have current documents proving compliance of equipment. Ask for another dismissal. Ask for another continuance to get a professional to examine the police paperwork.

Put the police on the witness stand. Ask him about the cop car or plane he used. Ask if it ever needs maintenance because something is broken. Ask him if the speed measuring equipment ever needs maintenance. Say "That is all!" and turn away before he can answer that one.

Make a friendly pest of yourself. Sometimes if the judge thinks you are clever and witty and determined they will let you off. Don't be arrogant. Don't lie. If you keep delaying it, sometimes it will just go away.

Ask for a dismissal or continuance every other sentence.

Be nice to the judge.

If you lose, ask how to file an appeal.
Click to expand...

This, wear a tie, be nice to the judge. I show up in Santa Ana court for a couple of tickets, I am wearing slacks, sport coat and tie. Everybody else in court looks like they were painting or taping drywall for a couple hours before court. As people's names get called they shout out "Yo". My name gets called, I stand and say "Yes Your Honor." Judge looks at his clerk and says, "You hear that? He called me 'Your Honor!' and look at him! Case dismissed, next."
 
Henning has watched too many Jimmy stewart movies. That is not how it will work. Shirt and tie of course. " your honor" of course. Without a good lawyer this fellow will go down in flames. The only serious speeding ticket I ever beat.....lawyer said " give me a grand. You sit here and read the morning paper, I'll be back soon. " he left with a grand cash. Came back an hour later and said " case dismissed". End of story. I asked no questions and was very greatful as I needed a company car for my job. This fellow will look like JJ Watts got hold of him if he insists on breast beating and so forth.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Henning has watched too many Jimmy stewart movies. That is not how it will work. Shirt and tie of course. " your honor" of course. Without a good lawyer this fellow will go down in flames. The only serious speeding ticket I ever beat.....lawyer said " give me a grand. You sit here and read the morning paper, I'll be back soon. " he left with a grand cash. Came back an hour later and said " case dismissed". End of story. I asked no questions and was very greatful as I needed a company car for my job. This fellow will look like JJ Watts got hold of him if he insists on breast beating and so forth.
Click to expand...


Can you say CORRUPT legal system ??:dunno:
 
N801BH said:
So... that one week a month dedicated to jury /traffic cases.. Do they use the same jury throughout the day or pick a new one for each trial ??:dunno:
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They use the same pool of jurors all week, different jury for each case. They select the juries for all of the cases at the very beginning of each day. Then they bring in the jury for each case as it goes before the court. A very large amount of time is spent on jury selection.


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SPAJC said:
They use the same pool of jurors all week, different jury for each case. They select the juries for all of the cases at the very beginning of each day. Then they bring in the jury for each case as it goes before the court. A very large amount of time is spent on jury selection.


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I bet...
 
N801BH said:
Most lines I have seen are 1/4 apart.....

I still contend that unless it is 2AM,,, you ain't gonna get up to 110 MPH with other traffic on the road...:no::no:
Click to expand...

The lines are visible and measurable on google maps. Zoom in on this link. In the north bound lane, the first mark is next to the large south lake, the second mark is 1/2 mile north near the other lake. These marks are in the right hand breakdown lane.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/M...2!3m1!1s0x876cad8f6b05f3e5:0x21536aeb400e7fdb

If the traffic was really heavy that day, perhaps if you flew over that area around the same time and videoed the traffic, then asked the officer if that's the same amount that was there that day. Ask him to time a car between vascar lines, establish a speed and then ask him to explain how a car was going 14 mph faster in that much traffic. After all, if there was traffic and a car was going about 40% faster than traffic, that would have involved dangerous weaving back and forth too, right?

Looked at the video from a page or two back and I'm surprised at the altitude. Seems like it would be very easy to glance one way to read the clock, then glance back and obtain a different car.

Still, I don't see much hope for the OP without the officers just saying something that doesn't add up and I don't think you can count on that. Perhaps ask for video from the airplane and from the cruiser and hope to spot something? I presume that even without discovery, they are not permitted to withhold exculpatory evidence?

Still, hope is a very bad tactic in the air and in a courtroom.
 
bflynn said:
The lines are visible and measurable on google maps. Zoom in on this link. In the north bound lane, the first mark is next to the large south lake, the second mark is 1/2 mile north near the other lake. These marks are in the right hand breakdown lane.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/M...2!3m1!1s0x876cad8f6b05f3e5:0x21536aeb400e7fdb

If the traffic was really heavy that day, perhaps if you flew over that area around the same time and videoed the traffic, then asked the officer if that's the same amount that was there that day. Ask him to time a car between vascar lines, establish a speed and then ask him to explain how a car was going 14 mph faster in that much traffic. After all, if there was traffic and a car was going about 40% faster than traffic, that would have involved dangerous weaving back and forth too, right?

Looked at the video from a page or two back and I'm surprised at the altitude. Seems like it would be very easy to glance one way to read the clock, then glance back and obtain a different car.

Still, I don't see much hope for the OP without the officers just saying something that doesn't add up and I don't think you can count on that. Perhaps ask for video from the airplane and from the cruiser and hope to spot something? I presume that even without discovery, they are not permitted to withhold exculpatory evidence?

Still, hope is a very bad tactic in the air and in a courtroom.
Click to expand...

Yup.. Looks like 1/2 mile spacing.....
 
N801BH said:
As a juror, I would listen to both sides, weigh the evidence and vote accordingly [...] And, I would base my finding on beyond reasonable doubt... not the preponderance of the evidence as I consider a ticket a criminal offense, not a civil one.[emphasis added]
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What other laws and/or instructions would you disregard if you were selected?

Nauga,
goin' rogue
 
nauga said:
What other laws and/or instructions would you disregard if you were selected?

Nauga,
goin' rogue
Click to expand...

We both don't know what instructions would be given to the jury,, SO,, I cannot answer your cute question...:nonod::nonod:
 
Welcome to jury nullification. If you could get a jury trial. Hmmm. Perhaps that's why you can't.
 
Hmmmm''If it is civil and you don't pay the fine.. They will file a lien..

If it is criminal and you don't pay the fine, you get a bench warrant and you get arrested.......


Looks to me like a traffic infraction is criminal...:dunno:......:yes:
 
bflynn said:
Not really. The lines are known to be 1/2 mile apart and are verifiable as such. It's a fall-on-your face maneuver, which you don't want to do in front a judge. Should still ask the question, just like you should ask all the questions about his procedures and qualifications. Make them prove the did it right. Know the right answers and make them give them. If they don't then drill in deeper.

The question is going to be how long he took his eyes off the car, because he had to maintain contact with it for not just the 20 seconds it took to clock it, but also the time it took for the officer to chase down the car and pull it over. How long is that? 2 minutes? Can you fly at 1500' without looking at the sky for 2 minutes?

What was his flight speed and headwinds? What was his groundspeed? that would contribute to a identification error.

Make him doubt himself, did he get your car confused with another one...that's the best you've got short of them saying something obviously wrong. Were there two cars, did he clock one, look away and then find your car? 15 seconds is a 1/3 of a mile at 75 mph. It would be very easy to find the wrong car.

Where did you see the car come from? If it came from south on i-25, then you know it wasn't you. When you clocked the car, which lane was it in? When you looked away at your flight instruments, then looked back, which lane was it in? When you found the car in the right lane, did you look further down the other lane to see if there was a similar car?

So - ask all the questions and then make him give you the right answers. Make him doubt himself, show HIM and the judge that he might be wrong and then ask if he is absolutely sure...he'll either hesitate or he'll shoot down his own credibility.

Then in the end, you might not be able to poke the right hole and it will be time to be a big boy and take your medicine.
Click to expand...

Brian, verifiable by whom? Rules of evidence are very technical - it does not matter that they are easily verifiable - who is going to testify to their length at the spot he timed you?

The court cannot take judicial notice of a mandatory fact - they need to bring someone in to testify as to the distance - the fact he was 'told' the marks are 1/2 apart is hearsay unless he has personally verified the marks at that spot are 1/2 mile apart . . .
 
bflynn said:
The lines are visible and measurable on google maps. Zoom in on this link. In the north bound lane, the first mark is next to the large south lake, the second mark is 1/2 mile north near the other lake. These marks are in the right hand breakdown lane.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/M...2!3m1!1s0x876cad8f6b05f3e5:0x21536aeb400e7fdb

If the traffic was really heavy that day, perhaps if you flew over that area around the same time and videoed the traffic, then asked the officer if that's the same amount that was there that day. Ask him to time a car between vascar lines, establish a speed and then ask him to explain how a car was going 14 mph faster in that much traffic. After all, if there was traffic and a car was going about 40% faster than traffic, that would have involved dangerous weaving back and forth too, right?

Looked at the video from a page or two back and I'm surprised at the altitude. Seems like it would be very easy to glance one way to read the clock, then glance back and obtain a different car.

Still, I don't see much hope for the OP without the officers just saying something that doesn't add up and I don't think you can count on that. Perhaps ask for video from the airplane and from the cruiser and hope to spot something? I presume that even without discovery, they are not permitted to withhold exculpatory evidence?

Still, hope is a very bad tactic in the air and in a courtroom.
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so what - are they going to have a computer connected to GE in court with a scale and proper measuring equipment?

Brian - you're not a lawyer - please stop trying to play one. you are assuming the facts are as you know them to be, instead of forcing the 'state' to prove every element of the charge against you using the proper rules of evidence. . . .

Traffic offenses are not 'civil,' they are criminal infractions. Lower than a misdemeanor which requires a jury trial. The penalties are fine only - if they want incarceration then you are entitled to a jury trial.

Will you take the 'advice' of someone who has been practicing for 30 years or a bunch of guys in an internet forum . . . .whatever.
 
SkyHog said:
No answer to the big question yet - which jurisdiction applies - the location of the offense, or the location of the citation?
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Hey Nick,

This may be the funniest thread I've seen on PoA. I haven't read all of it so you may have already come across this. For the record, I've never handled a traffic offense in Colorado (trafficking, yes, traffic, no :D) but the answer to your question might be in C.R.S. §18-1-202:
==============================
6) If an offense is committed in or upon any automobile, trailer, railroad car, aircraft, or other vehicle of transportation passing within or over this state, the offense is deemed to have been committed and the offender may be tried in any county through or over which the vehicle of transportation passed.
 
nauga said:
What other laws and/or instructions would you disregard if you were selected?

Nauga,
goin' rogue
Click to expand...

I agree that a traffic ticket is incorrectly assigned the status of "civil offense". A government official initiates the complaint, and if I do not comply with the state, I am going to jail.

There is nothing about that scenario that allows it to be considered a civil offense.
 
comanchepilot said:
Brian, verifiable by whom? Rules of evidence are very technical - it does not matter that they are easily verifiable - who is going to testify to their length at the spot he timed you?

The court cannot take judicial notice of a mandatory fact - they need to bring someone in to testify as to the distance - the fact he was 'told' the marks are 1/2 apart is hearsay unless he has personally verified the marks at that spot are 1/2 mile apart . . .
Click to expand...

My point was that trying to attack the truth of the lines not being 1/2 mile apart is fruitless because they are in fact 1/2 mile apart.

How does that come out in court? I expect it will come as part of one of the officer's testimony. They will say the lines are 2640 feet apart. They will say that they have personally measured them and they know the distance. They will say that they checked the calibration on the timer and it was correct. They will say that the times conversions they used were calibrated and are accurate. They will say that they've done all their training and their training is accurate and they've been shown to be accurate in their work.

They should be made to say all that, but you should not expect that they will stumble here. They do this every month, it's a regular part of their job. They've seem all the amateurs trying to poke holes at facts and they're well prepared to shut them down.

How would you disprove any of that after they make the statement? You can't. All you can do is ask the questions and hope they fail to give the right answer.

Like I said, hope is not a good strategy.

And no I am not a lawyer, but I've been through mutiple court cases including as a prosecution witness, defendant and juror. I am acquainted with the processes of the legal system.

Whether they are civil or criminal depends on the location and severity. For example, in NC, running a stop sign might be a civil infraction but something more serious like drunk driving is criminal. So it depends.

But regardless of which one it is, if he does not go in with a strategy of how to create the necessary doubt that officers did their job correctly, then he doesn't have a prayer. Being in court is part of their job. They're much better at this than he will be.

So where does that doubt come from? I'm working from the assumption that the when the OP says he was traveling 75, then he was actually going 75. So that leave two questions - how did the officers clock him at 110 and how do you show it? I'm not sure it's possible.
 
Couldn't read all of this messs....but has anybody asked:

Were you speeding?
 
Merf said:
Couldn't read all of this messs....but has anybody asked:

Were you speeding?
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Post #4:

SkyHog said:
I'd rather not plea bargain this one - I am 99% sure I was not speeding, and certainly not to the level they claim. I probably have a good case, provided I can see what evidence they're gonna try to use against me.
Click to expand...
 
Merf said:
Couldn't read all of this messs....but has anybody asked:

Were you speeding?
Click to expand...

Probably not going 110mph. Most likely going around 80 or 85 tops. Unfortunately, I don't drive with my eyes on the speedometer, so I can't say for certain.

I can say for certain that at the exact moment that I saw the police officer behind me with lights on, I glanced down and was driving between 75 and 80mph.
 
SkyHog said:
Probably not going 110mph. Most likely going around 80 or 85 tops. Unfortunately, I don't drive with my eyes on the speedometer, so I can't say for certain.

I can say for certain that at the exact moment that I saw the police officer behind me with lights on, I glanced down and was driving between 75 and 80mph.
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Probably ??????????

Geez.... You should know if you were going 110 mph in traffic...:yes:
 
N801BH said:
Probably ??????????

Geez.... You should know if you were going 110 mph in traffic...:yes:
Click to expand...

Well, I can say with certainty that I was not driving 100mph. As you said, I would know (if nothing else, I'd hear my engine racing pretty hard).
 
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