Challenging a court's jurisdiction? (Lawyers??)

skidoo said:
Here is one thing that bugs me about speed limits and such speedometers.

Me: Officer, did you make your measurement for an hour?

Officer: No, I measured you for 1 minute.

Me: Officer, did you measure my distance traveled for the 110 miles?

Officer, No, I only measured you for less than a mile.

Me: Then, how can you say that I traveled at a speed of 110 miles in an hour if you neither measured the 110 miles, nor measured for the hour?

Officer: Well, it is converted to what you would have done if you kept the same rate of speed.

Me: So, what you are saying is that you are charging a crime for something I would have done rather than what actually was done. Judge, I move to dismiss this charge based on the fact that I actually did not do what was charged.


I don't know how it would go. But, I know the terms and measurements used do not match up with proper measurement techniques. If the law wanted to limit the short term speed, such as in a period of a second or a minute, then the speed limits should be defined in those terms, such as feet per second. Then, one can legitimately measure ones speed in the actual terms used. 110 fps sustained for an hour would travel 75 miles. So, if the speed law was specified as limited to 110 fps, then an officer could measure the distance traveled in one second and compare the actual measurement to the law rather than a calculated value.
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Where you fail with your argument in a court of law is that you don't argue the law.

Your senario only gives credit to the officer.

But please next time you get a speeding ticket and try to defend yourself with this logic....bring a go pro with audio so we can see the judges reaction!!! It will be priceless.
 
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Welcome to Colorado's screwed up traffic courts, Nick.

I'm surprised a geek like yourself isn't running a GPS tracker in the car.

I'm also surprised the court date is in Douglas instead of El Paso, but they'd never do it in the Monument municipal court for a Highway Patrol ticket. Probably scheduled further north because the Patrol's aircraft and crews are based out of KAPA.

It'd be a ***** to do 110 on I-25 there, even if you tried in the typical traffic, unless it was late at night or really early in the morning. Most folks are doing about 80 in the 75 zone and 80 in the 65 zone. Haha.

Of course, I'm assuming you were on I-25. If you were on 105 going to or from Palmer Lake, that's a nice drive, but even harder to go that fast.

And sometime you should stop in at O'Malleys in Palmer Lake and cook your own steak... It's a fun joint. I'd even meet ya there sometime. Probably best saved for summer and their outside porch, but it's good year round, really.

I'm doing whatever the sign says. I had enough of Colorado's traffic courts and screwed up revenue generation system in my teens and twenties here. Cruise control works great. ****es off the people in their Lexii, too, which is just added entertainment. I usually smile and wave at the off-ramp traffic light.

I gave Elbert County some money this year, but I was caught fair and square enjoying a freshly graded and empty dirt road.

It's stuff like your experience that makes me want to run a dash cam with continuous GPS logging here in this State.
 
If I get pulled over again in MI my argument is going to be that the traffic laws of Michigan do not define the length of a mile, or even which one they are using. Statute? Nautical? Arab? German?. Having not defined the length of a mile...
 
Welcome to Colorado.

fe47920e5adf32a556a60af2677b0de1.jpg
 
Henning said:
If you can end up in jail over it, how can it be a 'civil offense'?:dunno:
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You must have misunderstood my post, or I wasn't clear. There are 2 types of traffic citations issued in CO. Traffic Violations, which are treated as a civil offense, and Traffic Offenses which are criminal.
 
JB1842 said:
You must have misunderstood my post, or I wasn't clear. There are 2 types of traffic citations issued in CO. Traffic Violations, which are treated as a civil offense, and Traffic Offenses which are criminal.
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Typically speeding is one you go to jail for if you don't pay the ticket.
 
Henning said:
Typically speeding is one you go to jail for if you don't pay the ticket.
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Just because it starts as a civil offense doesn't mean it always ends the same. I've arrested enough people who were involved in civil/bankruptcy matters because they failed to follow the orders/rules of the court.
 
JB1842 said:
Just because it starts as a civil offense doesn't mean it always ends the same. I've arrested enough people who were involved in civil/bankruptcy matters because they failed to follow the orders/rules of the court.
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If I fail to appear in court even, I go to jail. To me that makes it a criminal offense. If it can go past having a collection agent calling and a credit hit, it is a criminal matter IMO. A judgement in Small Claims court going ignored will not end up in a jail sentence. That is the difference between Civil and Criminal issues.
 
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Henning said:
If I fail to appear in court even, I go to jail. To me that makes it a criminal offense. If it can go past having a collection agent calling and a credit hit, it is a criminal matter IMO. A judgement in Small Claims court going ignored will not end up in a jail sentence. That is the difference between Civil and Criminal issues.
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It's not about the "ifs". It's the original punishment that sets the initial difference between civil and criminal, assuming you follow the rules.
 
Sorry....
Late to the party.. But

As previously stated, All aerial speed traps need painted lines on the road surface for the airborne officers to use to start and stop the stopwatch.. Usually they are 1/4 mile /1320 feet apart...

Be prepared to state to the judge the EXACT numbers for a car going 110 in a 1/4 mile stretch.. If the airborne spotter cannot give accurate numbers, then it will look bad on the prosecutions part....

1- Before the court date I would go out and measure the actual distance, take pics and use other pics to show getting clocked at 110 mph is highly improbable because of conditions..

2- Demand to see video of the offense.

3- Demand to hear the recording of what the aircraft spotter said the the ground officer to confirm it was actually your vehicle..

You beat them with simple but effective and obvious facts.. Hopefully there will be others in the courtroom that day and the judge will not want to look like an idiot finding you guilty with numerous spectators witnessing a perfectly great defense...

If you are the last case of the day and all others have left the room... You are TOAST...

Small town politics and all..:mad2::mad2::mad2:..

Ps... I have gone about twice that fast on the track and never worried about speed or the other race drivers...... Running 75 mph on an interstate with all the idiots around me, scares the ***** out of me....:eek::yikes:
 
Henning said:
If I fail to appear in court even, I go to jail. To me that makes it a criminal offense. If it can go past having a collection agent calling and a credit hit, it is a criminal matter IMO. A judgement in Small Claims court going ignored will not end up in a jail sentence. That is the difference between Civil and Criminal issues.
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If you fail to appear in court for a traffic violation you intended to fight you don't go to jail.

If you don't pay the fine for the ticket....they will issue a warrant.

(Side note....in some states 20mph over speed limit can be considered a criminal offense)
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Consider yourself lucky you weren't in Virginia.

From a Jalopnik press ride, resulting in a journalist spending 3 days locked up for 93 in a 55: Never Speed In Virginia: Lessons From My Three Days In Jail
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http://youtu.be/OgtQj8O92eI

Viginia must not have an overcrowding issue....like I said in the above posts...anything above 20 mph can be considered criminal in some states.

Journalist broke the law...the law won. There are many tracks in the US to feel the need for speed that allow you to use your personal car. Pretty sure this guy has been fully educated.
 
JB1842 said:
It's not about the "ifs". It's the original punishment that sets the initial difference between civil and criminal, assuming you follow the rules.
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If my neighbor sues me for $150 and gets a civil judgement in court and I don't pay, at what point do I go to Jail.

The whole precept seems wrong to me, how can the State issue a Civil fine?:dunno: I thought they could only issue an Administrative fine or Criminal fine? I thought Civil issues were between citizens?
 
TEFLONSEAN said:
If you fail to appear in court for a traffic violation you intended to fight you don't go to jail.

If you don't pay the fine for the ticket....they will issue a warrant.

(Side note....in some states 20mph over speed limit can be considered a criminal offense)
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And then I will go to jail. I don't see how the state can issue a Civil fine.
 
Henning said:
And then I will go to jail. I don't see how the state can issue a Civil fine.
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Agreed you will go to jail if a warrant has been issued in your name and you run into the Police.

On the next sentence....look deeper grasshoppa....the answer will come to you!!
 
denverpilot said:
Welcome to Colorado's screwed up traffic courts, Nick.

I'm surprised a geek like yourself isn't running a GPS tracker in the car.

I'm also surprised the court date is in Douglas instead of El Paso, but they'd never do it in the Monument municipal court for a Highway Patrol ticket. Probably scheduled further north because the Patrol's aircraft and crews are based out of KAPA.

It'd be a ***** to do 110 on I-25 there, even if you tried in the typical traffic, unless it was late at night or really early in the morning. Most folks are doing about 80 in the 75 zone and 80 in the 65 zone. Haha.

Of course, I'm assuming you were on I-25. If you were on 105 going to or from Palmer Lake, that's a nice drive, but even harder to go that fast.

And sometime you should stop in at O'Malleys in Palmer Lake and cook your own steak... It's a fun joint. I'd even meet ya there sometime. Probably best saved for summer and their outside porch, but it's good year round, really.

I'm doing whatever the sign says. I had enough of Colorado's traffic courts and screwed up revenue generation system in my teens and twenties here. Cruise control works great. ****es off the people in their Lexii, too, which is just added entertainment. I usually smile and wave at the off-ramp traffic light.

I gave Elbert County some money this year, but I was caught fair and square enjoying a freshly graded and empty dirt road.

It's stuff like your experience that makes me want to run a dash cam with continuous GPS logging here in this State.
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I actually live in Monument. I love O'Malleys so I'm game.

And I suspect the reason for the court being in Douglas County is because the stop occurred just across the county line. I was, in fact, on I25, about a mile or so away from where I entered I25.
 
TEFLONSEAN said:
Agreed you will go to jail if a warrant has been issued in your name and you run into the Police.

On the next sentence....look deeper grasshoppa....the answer will come to you!!
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Please enlighten me, I see how the State can issue a criminal penalty, I see how the State can issue an Administrative penalty, I'm still not seeking how the State is a Civil entity.
 
Henning said:
If my neighbor sues me for $150 and gets a civil judgement in court and I don't pay, at what point do I go to Jail.

The whole precept seems wrong to me, how can the State issue a Civil fine?:dunno: I thought they could only issue an Administrative fine or Criminal fine? I thought Civil issues were between citizens?
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Civil issues aren't always between citizens. If you sue the government over their wrong-doing, that's a civil issue. I would be up to the judge to put you in jail for not paying a judgment, but it will probably be for contempt based on you failing to pay the fine the court ordered.
 
First I tbink there are Vascar marks on both sides of Monument pass. They catch people going downhill in both directions. If you were going north you were in Douglas county.

If you were going south you were in El paso county. But the vascar strips may straddle the county line so the tickets can all be processed in Douglas. They need a way to pay off the ginormous new county govt center in Castle Rock doncha know.
 
docmirror said:
First I tbink there are Vascar marks on both sides of Monument pass. They catch people going downhill in both directions. If you were going north you were in Douglas county.



If you were going south you were in El paso county. But the vascar strips may straddle the county line so the tickets can all be processed in Douglas. They need a way to pay off the ginormous new county govt center in Castle Rock doncha know.
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I was going to say something about that. DougCo got way bigger than their britches in the run up to the housing bubble when they were the "fastest growing county in the country". That place is enormous and the county is in some pretty good debt. I remember when people thought the Castle Rock Outlet stores were a cute novelty, way way too far out of town. And nothing else around them. That entire Interstate exit and everything there was an open field.

They gotta pay for it all somehow, I guess. I'm pretty sure any ticket in DougCo comes with the assumption by everyone involved including the Judge that big price tags for the ticket and the court costs are just the way business is done there. I doubt any DougCo judge is going to let you out of their courtroom for less than three Benjamins if you're innocent and five if you're not.

DougCo likes it that way, too. DougCo. JeffCo, Westminster, and Boulder... All places you're likely to pay far more if you go to court than if you just check the box on the ticket for the automatic plea deal and send them a check.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Consider yourself lucky you weren't in Virginia.

From a Jalopnik press ride, resulting in a journalist spending 3 days locked up for 93 in a 55: Never Speed In Virginia: Lessons From My Three Days In Jail
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Cruise control and built-in radar detector / laser jammer are the only thing that got me through living in VA for 5 years...btw, radar / laser detectors are also "illegal" however the fine is cheap (but need built-in because they can confiscate the ones on your window)
 
civil vs. criminal is based on what the state says is civil or criminal...the code usually says what it is when it sets what the conditions are, under what authority they are enacting, and how enforced...
 
Sigh. Went to court today, stood in line for about 2 hours to get stuck hearing a REALLY lame plea bargain offer, had to set a "real" court date of 2/25.

I asked for a copy of the citation, front and back and only got a copy of the front. The back is considered discovery, which they won't provide...

What a racket...

But at least I have a case number now: 2014 R 3796
 
SkyHog said:
So - back in September, I was pulled over and issued a speeding citation. The police used an aircraft to relay speed information to a state trooper on the highway, who pulled me over a few minutes later.

The alleged infraction occurred within the town limits of Monument, CO, which is in El Paso County, but the traffic stop occurred outside of any city limits within Douglas County. Since it was a State Trooper, I don't doubt for a moment that the police officer has jurisdiction, but the case is scheduled in Douglas County.

Now, I'm not fishing for a "techincality" to get out of this - in fact, I just want to get discovery so I can prepare to defend myself. Unfortunately, Colorado has an interesting law that removes the requirement for discovery for traffic cases, but individual towns and cities often have different requirements.

That said - if the case was scheduled in Monument, the prosecution would be obligated to provide me discovery. Today, they are not.

Why do I need discovery? Because I was not speeding, at least, not as much as they claim I was "clocked" at. I was told I was caught doing 110 in a 75MPH zone, but as a "favor," the penalty would be reduced to 96 in a 75. I need to know how the speed was determined so that I can figure out where their error was. And I certainly can't do that mere minutes before talking to a judge.

So - two questions for y'all:

1. Does the jurisdiction apply to the location the offense is alleged to occur, or the location of the traffic stop?
2. How does one challenge a court's authority without just ****ing off the judge and essentially ruining any defense that exists?
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I'm not sure about jurisdiction, but one interesting comment:

I have a friend that headed up the joint Police aviation unit here. Some nice aircraft--172s 182s.

We have all these signs around saying "Speed Limit Enforced by Aircraft". He told me, "You know what: We cannot do speed enforcement from the air. One, the cost of fuel is too cost-prohibitive. Two, judges will not admit the speed taken from the aircraft as evidence. It is not yet solid enough from a science standpoint [at least to the judges]."

So in Virginia, the case would not have been brought. They don't worry about trying to change #2 because of #1--the cost.
 
SkyHog said:
Sigh. Went to court today, stood in line for about 2 hours to get stuck hearing a REALLY lame plea bargain offer, had to set a "real" court date of 2/25.

I asked for a copy of the citation, front and back and only got a copy of the front. The back is considered discovery, which they won't provide...

What a racket...

But at least I have a case number now: 2014 R 3796
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:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:..

The system is set up to make most people cave in and pay the fine...


Good for you to see this through..:yes::yes::yes:
 
I think from previous experience with Colorado and traffic stuff, you're not going to get a better deal, but maybe you'll hit the Judge on the right day and he'll be ticked at his longtime friends and co-workers from the DA's office.

Sorry, too cynical? Sigh.

I do hope for the best for your court date... Not holding out much hope though.

Colorado courts need fancy new buildings regularly and they need to pay for them. What you'll probably get is a better deal on the ticket and exorbitant court "fees", because you know... Your taxes aren't nearly high enough to pay for the Taj Mahal courthouses our affluent counties (like Douglas) build.

Too bad it wasn't in Elbert. We're still making them use the Courthouse built in the late 1800s. Heh. It flooded last year, though... So maybe they're due for an upgrade.

I'm sure we'll pay for the damages soon. Even the fake Tea Party county commissioner actively begs for more tax money constantly.
 
So I'm going to file a motion to compel discovery to force the judge to rule against it so I will have something to appeal up should I be found guilty.

Gotta be a rights violation to deny discovery.
 
Why are you going to this effort? Is the ticket very expensive or do you face jail time or revocation of your permit?
 
David7700 said:
Why are you going to this effort? Is the ticket very expensive or do you face jail time or revocation of your permit?
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Nope. It's because I wasn't speeding and don't particularly care to donate money willingly.
 
Then I'd get an expert and try to challenge the science.
 
SkyHog said:
I'm not going to get a lawyer for a speeding ticket, that's silly. This is a mere procedural question. I know how to file the motion, but I am looking for advice on whether I have the grounds to challenge the jurisdiction of the court based on the facts above, and also whether its just going to make the judge mad because its a silly distinction to him anyway.

If the state of Colorado hadn't removed the obligation to provide discovery this would be a much simpler thing anyway, as I don't really care where the case is tried if not for that small requirement.
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It's silly to get a lawyer for a speeding ticket of this magnitude?! no.......YOUR silly! And get a real good lawyer too! The ticket writer will explain his credentials, the classes he's attended to run the equipment he used and the judge will look at you like your road kill. The officer will also explain his authority to write the ticket in this specific case. You know what they say about a person who defends himself in court. He has a fool for a client.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
It's silly to get a lawyer for a speeding ticket of this magnitude?! no.......YOUR silly! And get a real good lawyer too! The ticket writer will explain his credentials, the classes he's attended to run the equipment he used and the judge will look at you like your road kill. The officer will also explain his authority to write the ticket in this specific case. You know what they say about a person who defends himself in court. He has a fool for a client.
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Hmmmmm..
I "think" Skyhog IS an attorney...
 
As I said.....get a GOOD lawyer. In maryland this is a very serious ticket. Nothing to make light of unless driving is just too much of an inconvenience and he'd rather not drive again. Usually there are mile markers easily seen by the aircraft and they simply time you thru it. Hard to beat unless the attorney and judge golf together, etc.
 
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