CFIs--How long before you intervene?

[Richard]

How far do you let a student go before you take control?

The other day I witnessed a dual instruction flight in a C-172 practicing T&Gs. On one approach the pilot was too fast, too high on final. He was at or near idle power but maintaining his altitude. I figured he would clean up to make a go around (he was still very near to TPA). About 1/2 sm final he dove toward the rwy with an increase in speed.

Of course he landed long and he bounced as he tried to stick the landing. Further, I could see the tail rise slightly and begin to fish tail. I assume this is from hard braking. But he didn't touch down until the last third of a 3,700' rwy. I know this because he landed past traffic which had cleared the rwy and was waiting for gnd for taxi clearance. And that plane taxied straight ahead to a row of hangers which is at the last third of the rwy.

This aprt is surrounded by congested city if that makes any difference.

 

[jesse]

Not a CFI. But somewhere between them scaring themselves and the plane getting smashed would be a good place.

I recall my CFI letting me mess up a lot and telling me why that was bad after I did it. I think once or twice he took over when I was learning to flare.

As time went on he got more harsh but it was always verbally. So he wanted me to learn the correct way but he would teach that with words and not actions.

 

[Don Jones]

How far do you let a student go before you take control?

Well I for one feel you have to let them fly as far into the crash as possible, within reason and safety of course. In the example you give, mine would have been going around long before the attempt at salvaging the landing. I would much rather teach them to recognize when an approach was going bad than to teach them how to salvage a bad approach. Go-Arounds are our friend!!!!

 

[KennyFlys]

What I'm being taught is you let the student make mistakes and learn from the results... up to a point. That would preclude a stall at low level, a porpoise landing with second bounce likely (allow no opportunity for a third), excessive movements on control surfaces and overstress, etc.

You advise the student on initial interview before the first flight there will be learning from allowed mistakes but at any time the safety of flight is at risk, you'll simply state, "I've got the airplane." That's his or her cue to release the controls and reply with "You have the airplane." Once we've returned to a safe attitude and altitude, we'll discuss what just happen briefly and go over it in more detail on the ground.

Through most of the flying, you're going to have your right hand on the lower right corner of the yoke so you can take control if necessary but also so you can detect how the student is controlling the aircraft.

As far as landing, the more I've read the more I want to get into gliders. I'm certain I can learn a tremendous amount about energy management which will help me just as much in powered aircraft. So, that's my goal this next year. The next best thing is a lot of practice on Power-off 180s. Their a precision maneuver but also good for energy management.

That's my penny's worth.

Edit: Don, your last line goes well with my posts a few months ago... "What's the purpose of a landing?"

 

[poadeleted20]

Students don't learn if you take the plane away from them too fast. OTOH, damaging the plane (or even the student) is unacceptable. It's a balance you have to learn as an instructor, and one which cannot be given in quantitative terms. As my instructional experience has grown, I've become more able to anticipate what's going to happen before it does, and make a comment to the student on the order of, "See what's happening? What do you want to do about it?" rather than waiting for "it" to actually happen and have to intervene rather than teach.

 

[Richard]

All good answers worthy of pondering.

(Pondering WIE UFN)

 

[bbchien]

I spend a lot of time waiting for my students to lay in a correction....a lot of time. They get the verbal, and then I get the "I'm correcting"....and they get the "yes you are but Waaaaaayyyyyy to long to start correcting...."

My hand doesn't go under my left thigh until the corrections start happening within about two seconds of when I start thinking, "I wish he would correct that......"

 

[tonycondon]

im on the same boat with everyone else. i like jesses answer. between scared and crashed.

kenny - www.ssa.org and click on the where to fly tool. there are quite a few (I think) glider operations in Georgia. Have fun and be careful, its addicting!

 

[Tristar]

In relation to Power off 180s or even landings in general, I've noticed a possible tip that could help students and CFIs alike. Some may agree, some may not so take it with a grain of salt.

After a particularly stressfull flight a few weeks ago, my CFI and I were heading back to the airport. I still needed to practice power off 180s with him so he made a suggestion, we'll have a contest. I said he could take the first power off 180 so I could watch and review procedures. After that, I took the next one. After our little competition was over I noticed a couple things; I completed my practice for the day and did pretty well, my stress from earlier maneuvers was gone, and to top it off we both were having a lot of fun! Personally, small things like that which remind students that flying is still enjoyable can really help relieve thoughts of a more than usual stressfully flight.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Well I for one feel you have to let them fly as far into the crash as possible, within reason and safety of course. In the example you give, mine would have been going around long before the attempt at salvaging the landing. I would much rather teach them to recognize when an approach was going bad than to teach them how to salvage a bad approach. Go-Arounds are our friend!!!!

Whether it's approaches or virtually any other maneuver the priority would ideally be for the pilot/student pilot to recognize and correct in a timely manner. No matter how well THAT is taught and no matter how well it is learned, somewhere, sometime, it will be inadequate and therefore, to not teach the knowledge of how to rationally attempt salvages is to short change the flight student as well as for the CFI to also miss out on the more rewarding and exciting flight instruction experiences.

 

[Don Jones]

Whether it's approaches or virtually any other maneuver the priority would ideally be for the pilot/student pilot to recognize and correct in a timely manner. No matter how well THAT is taught and no matter how well it is learned, somewhere, sometime, it will be inadequate and therefore, to not teach the knowledge of how to rationally attempt salvages is to short change the flight student as well as for the CFI to also miss out on the more rewarding and exciting flight instruction experiences.

Oh, believe me Dave, I don't miss out on any of that. Like I said, they get to fly as far into the crash as possible. Which has left me some really exciting instructional experiences to say the least

 

[EdFred]

My dad kept getting "scared" of the runway when we first started. He thuoght it was rushing up on him way too quick, and would give the yoke a good healthy yank. Then we would balloon, and I'd have to add some power, yada yada yada. Finally one day, I just let him plant it real firm on the runway, because I told him to hold off on the flare. The nose wheel was higher than the mains, so no porpoising. It was a one hopper, but nothing that was even close to causing any damage, or bending of metal. After that he realized the runway was not going to kill him, and the landings got better exponentially after that.

Sometimes you just have to push the little kid off the high dive.

 

[gibbons]

Good question and a skill I'm still learning as a CFI. Tom Richards has given helpful input to me on this score. I know when I first started instructing I took the airplane much too soon. Then there was a very brief and scary period when I wouldn't take it quite soon enough.

I'm finding it depends on the student. Do they tend to get cartoon eyes and freeze on the controls when things go badly or do they at least make some attempt to correct the situation? If so, do they tend to over correct? Some students I'll let go much further into a bad maneuver than others.

 

[Don Jones]

The ones I hate are the ones who after a while you begin to trust them a little. Then out of the blue they do something un-expected. Boy does that wake you up. I had one working on x-wind landings one day wind was like 8g12, not that big a deal. We are over the runway maybe 2 feet off the ground and a gust hit him turning the nose to the right, he responds with right rudder(a lot of right rudder)----HuH, oh crap, we are like 45 degrees to the runway, plane quits flying, I stomp left rudder just in time to get it straight before we hit, there was no time for power, ka--thunk. Don't trust any of them anymore

 

[Earthroamer]

I have two rules:
1. Dont bend me.
2. Dont bend the airplane.

Other than that...you have let them make mistakes.....That is why they pay us the big bucks. Like most people have said...letting them make mistakes and not learning or talking about them...is the sad part.

 

[poadeleted20]

I have two rules:
1. Dont bend me.
2. Dont bend the airplane.

Other than that...you have let them make mistakes

There are limits to that, largely governed by the Law of Effect (which says essentially that if the training is scary, painful or unpleasant, the trainee won't learn and may quit). For example, if you let a student on the first couple of flights inadvertantly stall the plane, especially if you haven't covered stalls yet, you are likely to lose that student over the resulting scare. OTOH, if you're on a practical test prep ride, you might want to let it happen to get the trainee's attention, since by that time the trainee has seen enough stalls that they shouldn't scare him/her.

Thus, I might add a Rule 3: "Don't scare either of us." That means if I'm getting scared, or if I think the trainee is about to scare him/herself, I will intervene.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Seems to me that in this particular case it's as much a matter of "negative transfer of learning" (or something like that) as it is safety. The student may now have the impression that landing more than 2/3 of the way down the runway is acceptable.

Personally, under normal circumstances, I would have been prompting the student to think about a go-around, telling them to go around, giving them the specific steps for the go-around, and taking control of the airplane just prior to the student trying to force the landing to initiate the go-around.

On the other hand, I wasn't in the cockpit for this one, and it's entirely possible that the student had issues that the instructor thought might be solved by letting the student dig this big a hole ("I was gonna do that right when you took the controls!"), although I do think the instructor misjudged how far to let it go

Fly safe!

David

 

[nosehair]

Through most of the flying, you're going to have your right hand on the lower right corner of the yoke so you can take control if necessary but also so you can detect how the student is controlling the aircraft.

Please don't do that, Sir.

Having your hand on the control yoke, or stick, is very distracting to a student.

Yes, you will have to do that at first, but your comment is "through most of the flying", so it sounds like you are doing that most of the time.

Your goal, as a flight instructor, is to sit in the right seat, hands in your lap, (but ready with lightening-fast response) looking as though you are about to fall asleep while your student practices.

Of course, it takes experience. New instructors will have their hands on the controls too much. That is one of the downsides to having a new inexperienced instructor.

But it is incumbent on you too endeavor to become relaxed and hands-off the controls with a student as soon as he/she is capable of relatively safe control inputs.

 

[EdFred]

Please don't do that, Sir.

Having your hand on the control yoke, or stick, is very distracting to a student.

Yes, you will have to do that at first, but your comment is "through most of the flying", so it sounds like you are doing that most of the time.

Your goal, as a flight instructor, is to sit in the right seat, hands in your lap, (but ready with lightening-fast response) looking as though you are about to fall asleep while your student practices.

Of course, it takes experience. New instructors will have their hands on the controls too much. That is one of the downsides to having a new inexperienced instructor.

But it is incumbent on you too endeavor to become relaxed and hands-off the controls with a student as soon as he/she is capable of relatively safe control inputs.

Agreed. Keep the hands off the yoke until it's necessary. If you can't figure out what the student is doing just by sitting there and observing, maybe CFIing isn't your thing.

 

[tonycondon]

yea kenny, the problem with side by side is that the student can see when you are sprung for action, which is a huge confidence killer. i like teaching tandem for that reason. i can be hovering and ready to take over at a moments notice and they have no idea.

ive found as an instructor that i can usually see the bad stuff that is happening. it only takes a split second to get the hand on the yoke and make the right correction.

there have been a few times ive instructed from the front seat of tandem airplanes, and then I will often put my hands up on the fuselage bars so the back seater knows i am not helping them.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

The ones I hate are the ones who after a while you begin to trust them a little. Then out of the blue they do something un-expected. Boy does that wake you up. I had one working on x-wind landings one day wind was like 8g12, not that big a deal. We are over the runway maybe 2 feet off the ground and a gust hit him turning the nose to the right, he responds with right rudder(a lot of right rudder)----HuH, oh crap, we are like 45 degrees to the runway, plane quits flying, I stomp left rudder just in time to get it straight before we hit, there was no time for power, ka--thunk. Don't trust any of them anymore

Yeah, those are the really dangerous ones, and a love-hate relationship for me. Getting out of their fiascos in time will really show everybody if the CFI is on top of it enough, or not quite enough.

 

[poadeleted20]

yea kenny, the problem with side by side is that the student can see when you are sprung for action, which is a huge confidence killer.

The key is, as nosehair said, to always have your hand where it's easy to grab the yoke, but also where it looks non-threatening, and keeping it there all the time so the trainee gets used to it being there. Otherwise, the trainee will pick up on your hand moving to the "standby" position and will tense up with predictable (and occasionally unfortunate) results.

 

[Don Jones]

Yeah, those are the really dangerous ones, and a love-hate relationship for me. Getting out of their fiascos in time will really show everybody if the CFI is on top of it enough, or not quite enough.

Lol, when I first started, recovering from some of the screwed up positions students got us in, it made me feel like an aviation god, didn't take me long to reel in that hazardous attitude before experience proved otherwise

 

[KennyFlys]

After getting sort of lambasted here, I had to go back and think about what I was considering at the time of my post. Keep in mind, I'm a CFI candidate and still learning even how to become a CFI.

I fly out of PDK, a very busy GA airport under the northern half of Atlanta Class B. Consequently, the practice area is a good forty miles away. A while back, I asked my CFI instructor how he handles all that transition time for a student's first few flights, really just the takeoff and landing.

He lets the student fly the plane from the start, including the first takeoff and landing. The only difference is on the first two or three landings he keeps his hand near or lightly touching the lower right corner of the yoke. That's where my answer came from.

I certainly don't see that necessary through all of training. After a given point, which varies from student to student, you transition to simply being alert and occasionally providing demonstrations. Otherwise, the plane is in the student's control.

I hope that clarifies what I had really intended.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Seems to me that in this particular case it's as much a matter of "negative transfer of learning" (or something like that) as it is safety. The student may now have the impression that landing more than 2/3 of the way down the runway is acceptable.

Bingo. That old saying "Practice makes perfect" is bogus. It should really be "practice makes permanent." Practice wrong and ye shall perform wrong.

 

[nosehair]

on the first two or three landings he keeps his hand near or lightly touching the lower right corner of the yoke.

Yes, then it's ok, 'smatter of fact, it is usually comforting to a new student to see the instructor's hands on the controls for the first few T.O's and landings.

 

[tonycondon]

that reminds me of a discovery ride once. the wife bought it and wanted to ride in the back. as we were taking off i had the new guy flying and he was doing good. when i turned around to make sure the wife was doing OK she got a sudden look of complete horror on her face as she realized her husband was flying, not me. she told me she was fine but could i please fly. so i just rested a hand on the yoke to keep the wife happy and let the husband fly.

 

[Richard]

Seems to me that in this particular case it's as much a matter of "negative transfer of learning" (or something like that) as it is safety. The student may now have the impression that landing more than 2/3 of the way down the runway is acceptable.

Personally, under normal circumstances, I would have been prompting the student to think about a go-around, telling them to go around, giving them the specific steps for the go-around, and taking control of the airplane just prior to the student trying to force the landing to initiate the go-around.

On the other hand, I wasn't in the cockpit for this one, and it's entirely possible that the student had issues that the instructor thought might be solved by letting the student dig this big a hole ("I was gonna do that right when you took the controls!"), although I do think the instructor misjudged how far to let it go

Fly safe!

David

That's what I was thinking when I witnessed the event which started this thread. I personally know two CFIS and one DE who will generate an automatic go-around if the student turns to final and is not on their target altitude as shown by landing light system (PAPI or VASI).

I think that may be a bit extreme at the Pvt level but would become acceptable with a more advanced student. Like Dr Chien said, you want to see indications that the student will apply appropriate, timely corrections.

 

[EdFred]

Bingo. That old saying "Practice makes perfect" is bogus. It should really be "practice makes permanent." Practice wrong and ye shall perform wrong.

Disagree. Change can be hard, but nothing is permanent.

 

[poadeleted20]

I personally know two CFIS and one DE who will generate an automatic go-around if the student turns to final and is not on their target altitude as shown by landing light system (PAPI or VASI). I think that may be a bit extreme...

So do I, at any level other than breaking out on an ILS (which is normally aligned or close to the visual approach guidance device). For a lot of reasons, in light planes, we usually fly more like a 5-degree glide path in the VFR traffic pattern, so we should normally see a slightly high indication from the VASI/PAPI when turning final. Do the math -- 400 AGL at 3/4 mile from the end of the runway (the "normal" point at which we roll out on final in a standard VFR pattern) is 4.6 degrees for a 500-feet-down-the-runway landing. Even for a landing on the instrument touchdown zone marks 1000 feet down a standard instrument runway is over 4 degrees from that point. At the same time, the PAPI/VASI is going to be very close to 3 degrees unless it's specifically set higher for obstructions (like at Freeway in Mitchellville MD - W00), and that's going to put you less than 300 AGL when you turn final at 3/4 mile -- a bit low, in my book, for VFR pattern work in a light single.

 

[tonycondon]

Disagree. Change can be hard, but nothing is permanent.

true but if there is nothing that needs to be changed then its much easier. the law of primacy still rules

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

true but if there is nothing that needs to be changed then its much easier. the law of primacy still rules

Law of Primacy is strong but, not as strong as Law of Imgonnadowhatiwantacy.

 

[tonycondon]

well there is always that factor, but its often beyond the control of the instructor. i will change what i can and accept what I cannot change

 

[KennyFlys]

well there is always that factor, but its often beyond the control of the instructor. i will change what i can and accept what I cannot change

Don't you keep wet noodles in the PTS book for use during critiques?

 

[Richard]

Law of Primacy is strong but, not as strong as Law of Imgonnadowhatiwantacy.

 

[silver-eagle]

I remember my instructor keeping a hand on the yoke. I also don't remember when he stopped. I remember early on there were the occasional inputs of rudder or yoke but at some point, they just stopped.
There was only one time I really scared my instructor. I still have the knot in the back of my head from that day. Probably the second time in a C172 as most of my training up to that point had been C152s. My son was doing a ride along in a regular (his choice) lesson. Doing a power off stall, CFI was real casual with his arm hung on the back of my seat, one wing dropped, a spin started, and his hand came through my head as I recovered.
Same instructor, C152, way high on final, he taught me how to slip it to get down (ON THE NUMBERS). Anything else, and it was go around.
Sometimes, you have to teach, some times you have to let them learn on their own. It's the same with children. Knowing the difference, knowing when, is the key.

 

[tonycondon]

shouldnt take two hands to recover from a power off spin. but i understand his motivation. my arm is usually resting on the back of the left seat when i fly too. Tabrina will recall a ballooned landing where it came off pretty fast. that was one of the most exciting ones ive done. a tad fast on a no flap landing and a quick jerk and we are up 30 or 40 feet. i dont think ive ever whacked anyone in the head doing that though, but have probably come close. i suppose it may reinforce the learning process. "i messed up, the instructor saved it and now for some reason my head hurts, i dont like it when my head hurts, i better not do that again"

 

[t0r0nad0]

There was one time in particular when I was doing a x-wind landing with my CFI after having done several solo flights. I was side-slipping on final and my CFI had his fingers on the corner of the yoke. I had too much bank and he told me to lessen it, and I told him that I would if he would quit fighting me on the yoke! I guess he didn't realize that he was applying pressure. His hands flew up like I was sticking a gun at him and he apologized. I landed and had to restrain from yelling at him that if he wanted to fly the plane, to say, "my controls" and I'd give it over to him. That was to be our last landing of the night, but I was kind of shaken after that one and as we were taxiing back I said that I wanted to do another one while he kept his hands the hell off the yoke unless I was about to kill us. We took off again, did another circuit, and I had a great landing and stable x-wind approach.

He apologized again during the debrief and explained that he'd been flying all day with students who didn't have their airplane handling skills as developed, so he'd been used to having his hand on the controls all day. I was his last student of the day, so he forgot that it was me flying and not one of his other students.

 

[tonycondon]

very good PJ. most students dont realize that often the relationship with the instructor comes to a point where the student needs to tell the instructor something like that. shutup and sit still and let me fly. i like that when a student gets to that point. shows me that he is capable of and wants to be in command.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

There was one time in particular when I was doing a x-wind landing with my CFI after having done several solo flights. I was side-slipping on final and my CFI had his fingers on the corner of the yoke. I had too much bank and he told me to lessen it, and I told him that I would if he would quit fighting me on the yoke! I guess he didn't realize that he was applying pressure. His hands flew up like I was sticking a gun at him and he apologized. I landed and had to restrain from yelling at him that if he wanted to fly the plane, to say, "my controls" and I'd give it over to him. That was to be our last landing of the night, but I was kind of shaken after that one and as we were taxiing back I said that I wanted to do another one while he kept his hands the hell off the yoke unless I was about to kill us. We took off again, did another circuit, and I had a great landing and stable x-wind approach.

He apologized again during the debrief and explained that he'd been flying all day with students who didn't have their airplane handling skills as developed, so he'd been used to having his hand on the controls all day. I was his last student of the day, so he forgot that it was me flying and not one of his other students.

I've done a thing for many years where I brief the flight student that if they see my left or right hand come up to the yoke, it's then "my airplane" with no dialog other than that I will be giving to explain the maneuver, and that they are also to lightly keep in touch with their yoke in order to feel my correct inputs to the aircraft. Not only has always it worked great, it developes and enhances their peripheral vision.