CFI wants to do Night while I..

douglas393 said:
Flying is all about confidence and trust. It seems to me you have lost confidence in your instructor, and you seem not to trust him either. My guess is this started before this night flight business. My recommendation is to take a day or two off to calm down, decide why you feel the way you do, and if it is unfixable(which it seems to be), find a new instructor or flight school. Someone said this is business and not personal, in many ways it is business, but it is personal as well. If you do not trust your instructor nor have confidence in his training, you may never trust yourself, or become confident in your own abilities to fly.

I think you need to do yourself a favor, before you waste more time, money, and emotion find yourself a new instructor.
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He offers some good advice.
 
It may not be personal to the one who's doing the firing, but you can betyourass it is to the one who's on the receiving end of the pink slip.

Ron Levy said:
I noticed. But whatever happens, remember -- it's just business, not personal, even when you fire someone. In any event, as stated above, start with the Chief Instructor on this issue.
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wabower said:
It may not be personal to the one who's doing the firing, but you can betyourass it is to the one who's on the receiving end of the pink slip.
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Taking a dismissal personally is a good way to make matters worse. Not easy to avoid that, but good for you if you can avoid doing that.
 
The CFI may be hoping it happens sooner rather than later.

Ron Levy said:
Taking a dismissal personally is a good way to make matters worse. Not easy to avoid that, but good for you if you can avoid doing that.
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Eagle I said:
You mean like I trusted my CFI's judgement that soft-field landings were a good/fun thing to practice, even though I hadn't yet mastered landings in general? And some $7,000 in instruction later, I still hadn't yet mastered landings? I don't mean to be disrespectful, because I know you're someone who has a lot of respect here, but I stand by my initial advice, which was: if you don't feel comfortable doing it, don't do it.
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I haven't mastered landings yet. Anyone who tells you they have is a liar.
 
Night flying is amazing. Go do it and enjoy it. You'll still land. It may help you to get a different perspective on landing and help you during the day.


BTW, add me to the list of "haven't mastered landings". I dont' know if I'll ever get it! :rofl:
 
So I ended up going tonight he got back to me after to give me my original scheduled flight. Did 1.7 pattern work non stop. I thought I was doing okay although every time before flare he kept touching the controls. I kept telling him stop touching the controls I can't feel I can't see what I need to do to make it happen if you keep touching. I don't want any touching from down wind till on landing if I need just kept battling with him on that.. Stop touching he said he can't do it he needs to I just kept telling him..
 
Even turning base stop touching it was making me nuts.. How can I learn without doing it myself.. I really may need to change CFI but I don't know yet. I mean the other one at this school is an as$ I won't learn with him I could maybe get a CFI from the local club to teach here he used to and still think he can and he comes highly rated from a fellow poa'er just going to start a bunch of bs
 
Is it your plane? If not, STFU and do what he says until you can doing it without him thinking you're going to bend it.

marcoseddi said:
So I ended up going tonight he got back to me after to give me my original scheduled flight. Did 1.7 pattern work non stop. I thought I was doing okay although every time before flare he kept touching the controls. I kept telling him stop touching the controls I can't feel I can't see what I need to do to make it happen if you keep touching. I don't want any touching from down wind till on landing if I need just kept battling with him on that.. Stop touching he said he can't do it he needs to I just kept telling him..
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marcoseddi, some instructors want you to master the landing "whole language"...they're not terribly analytic, you just memorize what works. That makes it really tough to assimilate night landings when you haven't even conquered day landings. The cures are all different.

Some of us prefer phonetics...and incremental adding to skills.

But one thing for usre, both methods work better with on eenvoonmental set of conditions and if he's imposing a second set on you before mastering the first (daytime set), he's trying to generate billable time into the night.

Think about that. His pocket vs. your progress.
 
marcoseddi said:
Even turning base stop touching it was making me nuts.. How can I learn without doing it myself.. I really may need to change CFI but I don't know yet. I mean the other one at this school is an as$ I won't learn with him I could maybe get a CFI from the local club to teach here he used to and still think he can and he comes highly rated from a fellow poa'er just going to start a bunch of bs
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Your cfi might fire you with thus attitude ..hes the PIC its his butt if you pile it up..he feels the need to correct your control inputs...your not in charge sorry ..you may feel entitled to a lot of things but this is not one if them
 
taters said:
That is unfortunate if you are really finding it that hard to find a CFI that seems legit..but flight instruction is all about planning ..and to say that many of them don't have a clue is way overstated considering what they went through at the FSDO to get a CFI ticket...
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Anh what did they go thru? They took a checkride with an FAA examiner that consisted of another written exam (BGI and/or AGI), showed up with a syllabus, and proceeded to "teach" the examiner. Perhaps 4-6 hours total.

I can do that now. But that doesn't mean I'm any good at teaching someone how to fly. I don't know how to evaluate someone's learning style and adjust my teaching to them so they succeed learning to fly.

Now, try me on computer science - no problem. I've been teaching CS for decades. I can tell when a student "gets it" and when I need to take a different approach. I've learned how to create & assign a project suitable for the level of learning. But I sure didn't know how to do any of this the first time I had to teach a class. Nor the second. Nor the third.

I sympathize with all who are saddled with poor CFIs because they don't know any better. I went thru the same thing and spent far too much money and too much time because the school didn't pay any attention or didn't care.
 
marcoseddi said:
Even turning base stop touching it was making me nuts.. How can I learn without doing it myself.. I really may need to change CFI but I don't know yet. I mean the other one at this school is an as$ I won't learn with him I could maybe get a CFI from the local club to teach here he used to and still think he can and he comes highly rated from a fellow poa'er just going to start a bunch of bs
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Is the CFI taking control of the airplane or just following along, ready to recover from a potentially serious problem? I know there've been more than one situation when I've asked the CFI or other pilot to follow along "just in case" due to high winds or other potential problems.

Perhaps you need to do full-stop landings each time, then ask the CFI for feedback on that landing - what did you do right, what do you need to correct, etc? Put the burden on the CFI to explain.

If the CFI is just following along, consider it a good idea for safety. If the two of you are fighting the controls, then you need to say the phrase "You have the airplane", sit back, cross your arms and refuse to fly the airplane until the CFI explains what you are doing wrong *AND* how to correct it. That's when you get to learn something. It may be that you learn to find another CFI, but you will learn something.
 
Are you aware of the aeronautical and ground training that's required in order to take those exams?
murphey said:
Anh what did they go thru? They took a checkride with an FAA examiner that consisted of another written exam (BGI and/or AGI), showed up with a syllabus, and proceeded to "teach" the examiner. Perhaps 4-6 hours total.

I can do that now. But that doesn't mean I'm any good at teaching someone how to fly. I don't know how to evaluate someone's learning style and adjust my teaching to them so they succeed learning to fly.

Now, try me on computer science - no problem. I've been teaching CS for decades. I can tell when a student "gets it" and when I need to take a different approach. I've learned how to create & assign a project suitable for the level of learning. But I sure didn't know how to do any of this the first time I had to teach a class. Nor the second. Nor the third.

I sympathize with all who are saddled with poor CFIs because they don't know any better. I went thru the same thing and spent far too much money and too much time because the school didn't pay any attention or didn't care.
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If he's touching the controls in the flare, it's probably to prevent you from breaking something. Despite what some think, we CFIs also have a 6'oclock to cover. Has he debriefed you on why he was coming on the controls?
 
murphey said:
Anh what did they go thru? They took a checkride with an FAA examiner that consisted of another written exam (BGI and/or AGI), showed up with a syllabus, and proceeded to "teach" the examiner. Perhaps 4-6 hours total.

I can do that now. But that doesn't mean I'm any good at teaching someone how to fly. I don't know how to evaluate someone's learning style and adjust my teaching to them so they succeed learning to fly.

Now, try me on computer science - no problem. I've been teaching CS for decades. I can tell when a student "gets it" and when I need to take a different approach. I've learned how to create & assign a project suitable for the level of learning. But I sure didn't know how to do any of this the first time I had to teach a class. Nor the second. Nor the third.

I sympathize with all who are saddled with poor CFIs because they don't know any better. I went thru the same thing and spent far too much money and too much time because the school didn't pay any attention or didn't care.
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Until you take the CFI practical, don't comment on what it takes to become a CFI. We have livlihoods and careers to protect and it would suck to lose it all just so the OP can learn from an airplane breaking mistake.
 
Sounds like this trainee and this instructor are a bad match. Time for the Chief Instructor to fix that.
 
wabower said:
Are you aware of the aeronautical and ground training that's required in order to take those exams?
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Answered by PM to avoid getting further off the OPs subject.
 
OP,
Find a CFI who flight instructs BECAUSE HE LOVES IT, not because he's broke or building time for another job. Then, if you can bring yourself to trust him, humble yourself, realize that he's not going to let you kill him and if he's grabbing the controls, its probably because your approach is not as good as your lack of experience is telling you. I would focus on eliminating the suspicion that he's trying to take advantage. That way, you're out of excuses not to follow his instruction.
 
LandSickness said:
OP,
Find a CFI who flight instructs BECAUSE HE LOVES IT, not because he's broke or building time for another job. Then, if you can bring yourself to trust him, humble yourself, realize that he's not going to let you kill him and if he's grabbing the controls, its probably because your approach is not as good as your lack of experience is telling you. I would focus on eliminating the suspicion that he's trying to take advantage. That way, you're out of excuses not to follow his instruction.
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Just because an instructor has career aspirations beyond instructing doesn't mean he/she is a bad instructor. I enjoy instructing very much, but I could never afford for it to be my primary income source forever, so therefore I have goals beyond instructing. Though, I wouldn't mind doing it on the side if I had a job that allowed it in the future. Especially something fun like tailwheel or gliders (gotta get that endorsement and rating!)
 
GCA319 said:
Just because an instructor has career aspirations beyond instructing doesn't mean he/she is a bad instructor. I enjoy instructing very much, but I could never afford for it to be my primary income source forever, so therefore I have goals beyond instructing. Though, I wouldn't mind doing it on the side if I had a job that allowed it in the future. Especially something fun like tailwheel or gliders (gotta get that endorsement and rating!)
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I never said the CFI was bad, but I've been in the presence of ambitious CFIs who didn't give a darn about the pupils they pushed through their hour building. If the OP can eliminate this excuse not to trust his CFI, he can commit to learning how to fly and not be pre-occupied by his suspicions.
 
Whatever... If I had been in OPs shoes I would have been at the airport 2 hours early with 7 different flashlights (I have a flashlight problem) eagerly awaiting my first night flight and the awesomeness that was about to ensue. Seems like OP was fishing for a reason to ***** about his CFI.
 
LandSickness said:
I never said the CFI was bad, but I've been in the presence of ambitious CFIs who didn't darn about the pupils they pushed through their hour building. If the OP can eliminate this excuse not to trust his CFI, he can commit to learning how to fly andautomaticallybe pre-occupied by his suspicions.
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And that's a shame that CFIs like that exist-there's no excuse to suck at your job just because you don't want to be there. I just take issue with alot of people on POA who use "timebuilders" as a derogatory term. Just because somebody is building time via instructing does not automatically make them a bad CFI. The one CFI I didn't mesh well with during my own training was also the oldest/most experienced of the bunch. To this day he and I are friends and his style works for some, he just didn't work for me.
 
Obviously there are two sides to every story. However there a couple little flags popping up here on what you say about your instructor.

It's probably time to have a sit down with him and discuss some of the issues your having. It also may be time for you to start looking for a new cfi. sometimes students and instructors just don't work we'll together.

Not knowing all the detail doesn't allow any of us to make a judgment, except fix the problem on the ground. Because if you two are not seeing eye to eye in the air your lessons will suffer.
 
Surely you're not suggesting there might be more than one side to a pilot/instructor story.

txcfi said:
Obviously there are two sides to every story. However there a couple little flags popping up here on what you say about your instructor.

It's probably time to have a sit down with him and discuss some of the issues your having. It also may be time for you to start looking for a new cfi. sometimes students and instructors just don't work we'll together.

Not knowing all the detail doesn't allow any of us to make a judgment, except fix the problem on the ground. Because if you two are not seeing eye to eye in the air your lessons will suffer.
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murphey said:
Anh what did they go thru? They took a checkride with an FAA examiner that consisted of another written exam (BGI and/or AGI), showed up with a syllabus, and proceeded to "teach" the examiner. Perhaps 4-6 hours .
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Your lucky if the oral is Only 6 hours...and your assessment is very inaccurate.
 
taters said:
Your lucky if the oral is Only 6 hours...and your assessment is very inaccurate.
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Mine was half that, but the intensity of the accelerated program made up for that in stress points. In the words of the oldest, most experienced guy in my "class" (we're talking 11,500 hours of Alaska bush time) , "I have a Phd and this is the hardest thing I ever attempted."
 
murphey said:
Anh what did they go thru? They took a checkride with an FAA examiner that consisted of another written exam (BGI and/or AGI), showed up with a syllabus, and proceeded to "teach" the examiner. Perhaps 4-6 hours total.

I can do that now. But that doesn't mean I'm any good at teaching someone how to fly. I don't know how to evaluate someone's learning style and adjust my teaching to them so they succeed learning to fly.

Now, try me on computer science - no problem. I've been teaching CS for decades. I can tell when a student "gets it" and when I need to take a different approach. I've learned how to create & assign a project suitable for the level of learning. But I sure didn't know how to do any of this the first time I had to teach a class. Nor the second. Nor the third.

I sympathize with all who are saddled with poor CFIs because they don't know any better. I went thru the same thing and spent far too much money and too much time because the school didn't pay any attention or didn't care.
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GCA319 said:
Mine was half that, but the intensity of the accelerated program made up for that in stress points. In the words of the oldest, most experienced guy in my "class" (we're talking 11,500 hours of Alaska bush time) , "I have a Phd and this is the hardest thing I ever attempted."
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Mine was At a FSDO ..8 hour oral 3 hour flight and a absolute Nazi of an SI. It is a.big ducking deal to anyone who goes through that and passes.
 
marcoseddi said:
So CFI texted me and said want to do a night flight tonight at 8:30 instead of our 6 oclock flight. Now I am not opposed to a night flight however I am trying to get to Solo level, and got about 11 hours and want to do more pattern work so i can get to solo level and be able to land all that. Doing a night flight seems like a waste if i havent completed that part yet what do you guys think should I do the night or say no lets do pattern work at 6?

Thanks for your help.
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Not a big deal. Night flight is great. Air is smoother, and the cities and countryside look beautiful all lit-up!
 
taters said:
Mine was At a FSDO ..8 hour oral 3 hour flight and a absolute Nazi of an SI. It is a.big ducking deal to anyone who goes through that and passes.
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So there's a paradox. Why do so many who pass go on to be crappy instructors?

(Actually, I don't hear as many stories about bad instructors as I used to. But the checkride difficulty hasn't changed.)
 
taters said:
Mine was At a FSDO ..8 hour oral 3 hour flight and a absolute Nazi of an SI. It is a.big ducking deal to anyon who goes through that and passes.
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There was a DPE who worked under the Scottsdale FSDO who gave 2 day CFI initials awhile back. I think it was something like 8 hour oral the first day followed by another couple hours the next day and the flight.
 
GCA319 said:
There was a DPE who worked under the Scottsdale FSDO who gave 2 day CFI initials awhile back. I think it was something like 8 hour oral the first day followed by another couple hours the next day and the flight.
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A friend of mine took her CFI initial a couple months ago. It was broken up into two days. I forget exactly how long she said the oral was, but I think she said around 6 hours. And she passed on the first try. I think she said the flight was 1.5.
 
Marc,

The cfi I recommended will not steer you wrong.
 
marcoseddi said:
Thanks for all the posts guys, it just seems odd like we keep jumping and I haven't finished the landing part yet now landing at night I don't kno I'm not uncomfortable doing night at all however uncomfortable on his motives to do night now..
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Does your instructor use a syllabus? Why not?

Bob Gardner
 
Eagle I said:
In some respects, I have to agree with you there. Maybe I've just had unusually bad experiences, but my first CFI, for instance, told me I didn't really need to do a preflight, because the plane had already been flown that day.:eek: On the other hand, I don't really subscribe to the theory that CFIs are all-knowing gods. I think it's always good to question what we are being told, whether by CFIs, or air traffic controllers, or whomever.
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Bless you. You will go far with that attitude. Don't take everything an instructor says as gospel...make him/her show documentation if you are in doubt.

Bob Gardner
 
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