CFI Initial...almost made it

[CaptLabrador]

Took it monday. What a long...long day. Made it through a 4.5 hour oral exam, were any of the typical questions I thought would get asked, like what you would see in the ASA study guide, asked...of course not. Why would the DPE who has done just about every kind of flying out there (fighters on to carriers, heli's, airline, charter, and corporate) ask a typical question. Well I made it, a little luck, a lot of patience, and knowing where to look in the FAR/AIM.

Unfourtunately it was during the flight, a lazy eight that killed me. 30 ft outside of PTS...just 30 feet. little too much pitch on the second 180 and just a bit to much bank on the 90 degree point equals 130 ft off on altitude. He had to do it cause the faa is down his neck about cfi initials these days he says...yeah I get it.

Well atleast the part I was dreading is over, the oral portion...now I just need to get a few more dollars together, clean up the flying, and take it again in 60 days. So close...

My advice to those doing a checkride soon. Fly the same plane so you are super familiar with the planes little variances. I flew 3 different arrows training and it showed. One crooked hershey bar wing, one hershey bar 3 blade prop, and a nice tapered wing arrow and they all acted like different planes. It makes a big difference and it cost me, but hey live and learn!

 

[sballmer]

Bummer, but the good news is that you are done with most of it. The recheck will be a breeze. The FAA has a strange way to teach us that our flying degrades after a 12h day...

 

[ajstoner21]

Bummer. I thought the cfi ride was about teaching, not flying? That is, so what if you were outside pts if you could explain what caused it and how to correct?

Im not a cfi, so i honestly dont know.

 

[marcoseddi]

That sucks, Sorry man! You'd think after all that there is a little room for error, or at least a do over I mean come one one shot and done what about you were a little off not in standards do it again. It's good you passed everything else I'm sure the second round he's basically automatically passing you.

 

[ScottK]

Well atleast the part I was dreading is over, the oral portion...now I just need to get a few more dollars together, clean up the flying, and take it again in 60 days. So close...

Congrats on the getting through the oral, but why such a long wait to clean up one maneuver?

 

[ClimbnSink]

Bummer. I thought the cfi ride was about teaching, not flying? That is, so what if you were outside pts if you could explain what caused it and how to correct?

Im not a cfi, so i honestly dont know.

The cfi ride is about showing applicants the faa is boss by failing most of them the first time.

 

[RotorAndWing]

The cfi ride is about showing applicants the faa is boss by failing most of them the first time.

 

[RussR]

Congrats on the getting through the oral, but why such a long wait to clean up one maneuver?

I'm guessing he meant "take it again within 60 days".

 

[ClimbnSink]

How many of them pass the second time? If it is a high number is the initial failure justified? And does the initial failure make better CFIs? It is a pysch game not a safety standard.

 

[wabower]

Do they pass the second time because they are then able to demonstrate the maneuvers to PTS standards or is it a free pass?

Could the difference be that the applicant realizes that exceeding tolerances won't be ignored and knows he/she must get their act together for the second try? And also knows the ride will largely be limited to improving the failed maneuver and therefore able to devote sufficient attention to detail in order to perform and demonstrate it properly?

How many of them pass the second time? If it is a high number is the initial failure justified? And does the initial failure make better CFIs? It is a pysch game not a safety standard.

 

[RotorAndWing]

How many of them pass the second time? If it is a high number is the initial failure justified? And does the initial failure make better CFIs? It is a pysch game not a safety standard.

"You can't fix stupid". -Ron White

 

[douglas393]

Really, he failed you because you busted the lazy 8 by 30 feet, that seems a pretty trivial reason to fail you. Sounds to me the FAA or the DPE or both has a large stick and they like to wield it. Then again I wish we could hold others to such standards where such small relative "errors" could be the difference betweenm life and death.

 

[Geico266]

Good on you for passing the oral..... get back in the saddle asap and get the flying portion done.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H5uWRjFsGc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[wabower]

What are the current tolerances for the maneuver? Are they a secret? If a pilot knows them in advance, why wouldn't he practice until he's sure that he can do them consistently?

If your brakes are only ten-thousandths under minimums, should the A&P ignore the variance?

Really, he failed you because you busted the lazy 8 by 30 feet, that seems a pretty trivial reason to fail you. Sounds to me the FAA or the DPE or both has a large stick and they like to wield it. Then again I wish we could hold others to such standards where such small relative "errors" could be the difference betweenm life and death.

 

[nosehair]

He initially said off by 30 feet, then he said 130 feet. Could be a clue as to the real reason.
The PTS minimum performance standards are not goals to shoot for, but are tolerances of pilot error the examiner can accept under normal conditions.
If you miss your altitude by 30 feet, then you are off by 30 feet.
Don't think of it as "within PTS".
Off by 100 feet is pretty rough for a CFI applicant.
Under normal conditions - and that is key. The reason for the deviation is the key.
Control input , timing, wx conditions, specific aircraft performance in that specific moment of time, and ability to explain the performance as it happens, all play into the decision to pass/fail.
Not "can you fly within PTS standards".

 

[ClimbnSink]

30' on a crappy airplane altimeter. OK he deserved it, but sometime during the retake 30' off will be overlooked. It is a game, not a rigid safety standard.

 

[jnmeade]

The way to pass is to not give them any reason to fail you.
If one does have a problem with a maneuver, one recourse is to identify, explain and offer to redo it - that at least shows one has the knowledge to know what went wrong and why.
Congratulations on the written - that was my toughest part - and good luck on the flying. I'm sure you will do it.

 

[wabower]

Speculation. As an examiner I noticed that most applicants could perform to standards after a bust.

30' on a crappy airplane altimeter. OK he deserved it, but sometime during the retake 30' off will be overlooked. It is a game, not a rigid safety standard.

 

[dell30rb]

Must the entire initial checkride be taken in a complex aircraft?

 

[tonycondon]

Must the entire initial checkride be taken in a complex aircraft?

no if you want to complicate matters even more you can do the takeoffs and landings in complex and the rest of the ride in non-complex

 

[dell30rb]

no if you want to complicate matters even more you can do the takeoffs and landings in complex and the rest of the ride in non-complex

Sure. I recently did the commercial checkride in a mooney. The only tough part about that was eights on pylons. Much easier to see things in a high wing.

 

[jesse]

no if you want to complicate matters even more you can do the takeoffs and landings in complex and the rest of the ride in non-complex

which is a bad idea on a cfi ride since you now have two airplanes that you must get pass their airworthiness guys which is a challenge in itself plus two airplanes that you must know everything about.

 

[dell30rb]

plus two airplanes that you must know everything about.

Everyone makes this out to be a big issue. I don't see it. By the time you are taking your CFI ride you have already passed at least two checkrides in the simple trainers.

 

[jesse]

Everyone makes this out to be a big issue. I don't see it. By the time you are taking your CFI ride you have already passed at least two checkrides in the simple trainers.

Have you taken a CFI checkride? It's seriously difficult to even get ONE airplane past the airworthiness guys at some FSDO(s). I've seen FSDO airworthiness inspectors reject airplanes for checkrides that they will say are indeed airworthy, but they simply don't like because of some B/S reason. Most of the time, around here, you never even make it to the flying portion because the airworthiness guys reject it.

The amount of detail that you will go into in the oral is pretty damn high. It's incredibly silly to open yourself up to two airplanes worth of systems when you don't have to.

You're not saving money or making anything easier, that's for sure.

 

[marcoseddi]

MY CFI told me my PPL checkride will be like 2 - 3 hour oral he said one of his studnets just had a 3.5 hour oral i just dont see it thats like your guys CFI status

 

[jesse]

MY CFI told me my PPL checkride will be like 2 - 3 hour oral he said one of his studnets just had a 3.5 hour oral i just dont see it thats like your guys CFI status

Private check rides typically have a oral of 1-3 hours IME. They are typically done with pretty reasonable DPEs.

Most CFI initials are done with FSDO Inspectors some of which are very reasonable and some of which are not. It typically works out to a 8 hour day and the failure rate is relatively high compared to other rides.

 

[ja_user]

which is a bad idea on a cfi ride since you now have two airplanes that you must get pass their airworthiness guys which is a challenge in itself plus two airplanes that you must know everything about.

Personally, I don't think it makes much sense to do on a commercial either. Especially for those of us that would end up needing to take the plane(s) too an examiner.

 

[gismo]

30 feet off is a bust AND you could explain why you were 30 feet off? Ridiculous IMO. Teachers make mistakes too, and that includes CFIs. You didn't make an error if safety, you made an error on a maneuver that you're teaching (with explanation!) that you likely could hardly see the sensitivity of 30 feet on your altimeter. I am seriously dreading my CFI ride for these reasons.

But on the bright side, I heard the examiner I'm using hates stalls so I can recover at first sign (horn) and is too lazy to go through all the airplane logs.

Just to be clear, can we assume that the error was 130 ft which is 30 ft more than allowed? As someone already wrote, 130 ft is a fairly noticeable error (and more than 4 times the 30 ft you might be considering).

And on a marginally related note, if I were to take a ASEL initial CFI ride in my only single engine airplane, the altimeter is of the single pointer type with 100 ft markings about 0.04" apart. Seems like it would be rather difficult to distinguish between 100' and 130' on that. Is such an airplane unacceptable for a CFI ride (assuming a complex airplane wasn't required)?

 

[dell30rb]

And on a marginally related note, if I were to take a ASEL initial CFI ride in my only single engine airplane, the altimeter is of the single pointer type with 100 ft markings about 0.04" apart. Seems like it would be rather difficult to distinguish between 100' and 130' on that. Is such an airplane unacceptable for a CFI ride (assuming a complex airplane wasn't required)?

The non-sensitive altimeter in the cub is like you describe. I think the pointer vibrates 100' up/down in normal level flight. And yes I do believe that you could take the checkride in one. I was told by two DPE's that I could do the commercial ride in a cub if I wanted to. I opted to do it all in the mooney simply because I had 5 more hours of complex dual to go before I met the 10 hours dual complex minimum for the checkride. I used that time to learn the maneuvers and landings.

Jesse I won't argue the airworthiness part. My point was simply that after two checkrides and 200 hours in a 152 over the last two years I know the plane well. For me, this does not represent an obstacle. But I am a grease monkey.

 

[moonshine]

30 feet off is a bust AND you could explain why you were 30 feet off? Ridiculous IMO. Teachers make mistakes too, and that includes CFIs. You didn't make an error if safety, you made an error on a maneuver that you're teaching (with explanation!) that you likely could hardly see the sensitivity of 30 feet on your altimeter. I am seriously dreading my CFI ride for these reasons.

I'm seriously showing this to my 30k-dual-given-CFI, who says that "no-one ever gets busted on their lazy eights"

 

[iRyan]

I will start training for my initial in NC next week. This thread makes me nervous. Good luck on the retest.

 

[dmspilot]

Have you taken a CFI checkride? It's seriously difficult to even get ONE airplane past the airworthiness guys at some FSDO(s). I've seen FSDO airworthiness inspectors reject airplanes for checkrides that they will say are indeed airworthy, but they simply don't like because of some B/S reason. Most of the time, around here, you never even make it to the flying portion because the airworthiness guys reject it.

The amount of detail that you will go into in the oral is pretty damn high. It's incredibly silly to open yourself up to two airplanes worth of systems when you don't have to.

You're not saving money or making anything easier, that's for sure.

I still have a 12-page writeup I'll eventually post, but on my CFI ride, the FSDO rejected my airplane (which, by the way, is exceptionally well maintained), stomping around and complaining about the aircraft logbooks saying things like "this is ridiculous." Then a half an hour later while I was on the phone with our A&P/IA and getting him and everyone else at the flight school (including me) all bent out of shape, they changed their minds and let me fly it.

Anyway, two airplanes not only means two systems on which to answer questions, being able to fly both, but also... two preflights, and considering FSDOs are often located at busier airports, getting in and out of the FSDO airport two times. In summary you are really making an already long, difficult checkride substantially longer and difficulter.

If a person was lucky enough to get a DPE for the CFI ride and could do it at the home airport, two airplanes might be more tempting.

Sure. I recently did the commercial checkride in a mooney. The only tough part about that was eights on pylons. Much easier to see things in a high wing.

I did the comm in a PA28R-180 and the CFI in the 172RG. I don't see how 8s on pylons are harder in a low-wing.

 

[dmspilot]

Unfourtunately it was during the flight, a lazy eight that killed me. 30 ft outside of PTS...just 30 feet. little too much pitch on the second 180 and just a bit to much bank on the 90 degree point equals 130 ft off on altitude. He had to do it cause the faa is down his neck about cfi initials these days he says...yeah I get it.

Sorry to hear about your bust. Out of curiosity, were you 130' low or high?

I flew 3 different arrows training and it showed. One crooked hershey bar wing, one hershey bar 3 blade prop, and a nice tapered wing arrow and they all acted like different planes. It makes a big difference

Why did you do that?

Really, he failed you because you busted the lazy 8 by 30 feet, that seems a pretty trivial reason to fail you. Sounds to me the FAA or the DPE or both has a large stick and they like to wield it. Then again I wish we could hold others to such standards where such small relative "errors" could be the difference betweenm life and death.

There could be more than one reason.

 

[poadeleted20]

Took it monday. What a long...long day. Made it through a 4.5 hour oral exam, were any of the typical questions I thought would get asked, like what you would see in the ASA study guide, asked...of course not. Why would the DPE who has done just about every kind of flying out there (fighters on to carriers, heli's, airline, charter, and corporate) ask a typical question.

Because the FAA doesn't want it done the way those "practical test guides" put out by ASA and others show it, and hasn't wanted that for quite a few years.

While there's a lot of good material in those "Oral Prep" books, the FAA guidance on practical tests no longer calls for those simple Q&A methods, but rather goes for "situationally based testing." For example, instead of asking you what the VFR weather mins are in Class E airspace, the examiner may ask you whether or not today's weather is good enough to make your planned XC flight under VFR, and how you came to that determination. This will test, in a more realistic manner, not only your rote knowledge of 91.155, but also your ability to apply that knowledge to a practical situation, not to mention your ability to read and interpret all the available weather data, as well as determining from the sectional what airspace you'll be in so you know which paragraph of 91.155 applies along each part of your route. Those old-style Q&A books can't prepare you for that -- only a good instructor familiar with the concept of situationally based testing can.

So, for an IR test, the examiner may look at your flight plan, and ask you why the Alternate block is blank -- and have you justify that answer based on the regs and the weather. Or, if there is an airport there, ask you why you needed to put it there, and how you know it qualifies as a legal alternate today, which requires reference to weather, regs, NOTAMs, and the Terminal Procedures book. This is very different from the old days where an examiner would simply ask you "What's the required weather at your destination to not file an alternate? Can you use this approach as an alternate? What are the standard alternate minimums? Are the alternate minimums at this airport nonstandard?" and makes you think and analyze, not just parrot.

Now, there are still a few old-school examiners who pull out the Oral Test Prep book and start asking questions from it, but they are getting much fewer and farther between. Your instructor should be familiar with the testing styles of the local examiners, so s/he should be able to help you prepare, and give you a practice oral that reasonably accurately reflects that style.

And anyone going up for an initial CFI ride should have been taught this as part of his/her CFI training, as when they get that ticket, they will have to prepare their trainees for situationally based practical tests.

 

[poadeleted20]

Bummer. I thought the cfi ride was about teaching, not flying? That is, so what if you were outside pts if you could explain what caused it and how to correct?

Because the CFI PTS requires demonstration of Commercial Pilot flight proficiency, and 130 feet off is outside the standards for Commercial Pilots. Yes, it's primarily about teaching, but you must fly to the basic CP standards, too.

Im not a cfi, so i honestly dont know.

Now you do.

 

[poadeleted20]

Really, he failed you because you busted the lazy 8 by 30 feet,

It was by 130 feet, not 30 feet, and since the tolerance in the CP PTS is 100 feet, 130 feet is 30 feet outside the limit. Examiners have the prerogative to expand the limits somewhat in difficult conditions, as is taught in the FAA-approved Gleim FIRC:

The tolerances shown in each practical test standard represent the performance expected in good flying conditions...this means the examiner may allow them additional leeway in the performance of maneuvers in turbulent conditions. Accordingly, occasionally exceeding tolerances on a turbulent day should not result in failure of the practical test. If, however, in the judgment of the examiner, the applicant does not meet the standards for the performance of any task performed, the associated area of operation is failed, and therefore the practical test is failed. [emphasis added]

...but the examiner is not required to give additional leeway.

 

[poadeleted20]

30' on a crappy airplane altimeter. OK he deserved it, but sometime during the retake 30' off will be overlooked. It is a game, not a rigid safety standard.

You're not actually a CFI, are you?

 

[ajstoner21]

Because the CFI PTS requires demonstration of Commercial Pilot flight proficiency, and 130 feet off is outside the standards for Commercial Pilots. Yes, it's primarily about teaching, but you must fly to the basic CP standards, too.

Now you do.

Thanks Ron! B)

 

[poadeleted20]

MY CFI told me my PPL checkride will be like 2 - 3 hour oral he said one of his studnets just had a 3.5 hour oral i just dont see it thats like your guys CFI status

Initial PP-A orals are usually about 1:15-1:30. Only time I've heard of a PP-A oral taking 3 hours was when the FAA was watching.

 

[jesse]

Initial PP-A orals are usually about 1:15-1:30. Only time I've heard of a PP-A oral taking 3 hours was when the FAA was watching.

I see it fairly often - but that's mostly because the examiner likes to talk and bull****.