CFI has student pilot doing off-the-cuff acro

[alfadog]

So I found this really long video of a flight lesson and was listening to it while I did some other stuff on the computer. The instructor seems very knowledgeable and patient and is doing a nice job despite a bit of a tendency to give the student more data than he seems to want or need. Then, following some slow flight and stalls, he has the student execute a chandelle with apparently no briefing or foreknowledge of the maneuver. OK, no biggie. He then has the student similarly do just about everything needful to enter a spin and then recover from the incipient spin. Except he never tells the student anything about spins, simply describing it as a quick way to turn the airplane. Huh???? Kinda like a half-assed hammerhead but he never says that either.

I cued up the relevant section below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9I33c9Bz0#t=2757s

Now, is it a savvy CFI trying to covertly spin-proof a student or an arrogant fool of an instructor engaging in an act of gross negligence? Or something in between? Then what?

I can just see the poor student trying this on his own without having any idea of the spin risk. Perhaps not this student, though. He doesn't seem the type.

 

[Geico266]

Looks like a Diamond.

I think the CFI is doing a good job.

 

[alfadog]

Looks like a Diamond.

I think the CFI is doing a good job.

A good job showing him how to spin the airplane?

 

[Geico266]

A good job showing him how to spin the airplane?

Why not? Spin training was required at one time. My guess is this CFI knows the limits of this airframe.

Unusual attitude recovery training?

The student is a young kid, the CFI is older. I read the situation as the CFI showing the kid how much fun you can safely have. We don't know what ground school the CFI has done with this kid, or what other training he has or skill level. You don't get to be an old CFI doing stupid pilot tricks.

I'm not gonna second guess watching 3 minutes of video and condemn his teaching techniques.

 

[poadeleted21]

Perhaps the kid has been scared of spins and when the land they instructor will explain it to him.
Never flown a diamond and far from a spin expert but that looked very benign.

 

[alfadog]

Why not? Spin training was required at one time.

Unusual attitude training?

The student is a young kid, the CFI is older. I read the situation as the CFI showing the kid how much fun you can safely have. We don't know what ground school the CFI has done with this kid, or what other training he has or skill level. You don't get to be an old CFI doing stupid pilot tricks.

I agree that we have an incomplete picture but, if I may be allowed to guess, the maneuver seems completely foreign to the student and the CFI is definitely on the controls with him. My concern is that the CFI seems completely ignorant of the fact that the student could get into serious trouble trying that on his own and he does nothing to warn the student of the danger of spinning the airplane without competence in recovery.

 

[poadeleted21]

I agree that we have an incomplete picture but, if I may be allowed to guess, the maneuver seems completely foreign to the student and the CFI is definitely on the controls with him. My concern is that the CFI seems completely ignorant of the fact that the student could get into serious trouble trying that on his own and he does nothing to warn the student of the danger of spinning the airplane without competence in recovery.

You know those spins you 've been scared of? That neat way to turn I taught you was...

Who knows what the instructor said off camera.

Oh by the way, this thread is exactly why I have never filmed any of my flights and if I was an instructor, I sure wouldn't allow a lesson to be recorded.

 

[alfadog]

Perhaps the kid has been scared of spins and when the land they instructor will explain it to him.
Never flown a diamond and far from a spin expert but that looked very benign.

An incipient spin in a forgiving airplane is fairly benign. I do not know how the Diamond does in spins. Looks forgiving.

 

[alfadog]

You know those spins you 've been scared of? That neat way to turn I taught you was...

Who knows what the instructor said off camera.

Oh by the way, this thread is exactly why I have never filmed any of my flights and if I was an instructor, I sure wouldn't allow a lesson to be recorded.

Perhaps. Otherwise, the instructor seems competent and apparently he is a DPE so maybe there is more here than meets the eye.

 

[alfadog]

Oh by the way, this thread is exactly why I have never filmed any of my flights and if I was an instructor, I sure wouldn't allow a lesson to be recorded.

Maybe he has thicker skin. Personally, you can laugh at and/or dissect my flying videos all you like. It's all good.

 

[poadeleted21]

Maybe he has thicker skin. Personally, you can laugh at and/or dissect my flying videos all you like. It's all good.

That, I wouldn't care about. You can ask Jesse how big of a wuss I am in the clouds, I don't care about peoples critique or opinions, I've seen innocent enough videos get called in to a persons boss etc.. It's just bad form.

 

[alfadog]

That, I wouldn't care about. You can ask Jesse how big of a wuss I am in the clouds, I don't care about peoples critique or opinions, I've seen innocent enough videos get called in to a persons boss etc.. It's just bad form.

Bad form to comment on a publicly posted video? Not in my book.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

At about 46 minutes in, CFI: "can use combination of pitch and power....rules carved in granite are on a tombstone, and we're flyin' in a bowl of jelly...."

Did I quote that right?

 

[poadeleted21]

Bad form to comment on a publicly posted video? Not in my book.

Nope, not bad form to comment.

Bad form to post a few minutes of a flight and leave the viewers to publicly speculate about it, too many negative things could happen from it and virtually zero positive.

Most of the videos of flying I see are painfully boring to begin with but still posted only for a "Hey check this out" reason, I don't see the point of exposing yourself to the world and their imagination. If one wanted to post an instructional video with commentary of what they were doing and why, I could get behind it. Just posting a video so people can see how cool you are... nahh.

 

[docmirror]

You should see the start of my fixed wing logbook. Second flight is 'aileron rolls right, stall series, one turn spin and recovery'. My CFI was a Top Gun pilot at Miramar. We had a freakin blast and I learned to handle a plane.

 

[alfadog]

At about 46 minutes in, CFI: "can use combination of pitch and power....rules carved in granite are on a tombstone, and we're flyin' in a bowl of jelly...."

Did I quote that right?

Ties in with a really nice exchange at the point below where he defines "straight and level". I liked this guy a lot but having the kid spin the airplane without telling him he was spinning it threw me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9I33c9Bz0#t=1135s

 

[Geico266]

You should see the start of my fixed wing logbook. Second flight is 'aileron rolls right, stall series, one turn spin and recovery'. My CFI was a Top Gun pilot at Miramar. We had a freakin blast and I learned to handle a plane.

Sounds like fun to me!!!

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Ties in with a really nice exchange at the point below where he defines "straight and level". I liked this guy a lot but having the kid spin the airplane without telling him he was spinning it threw me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9I33c9Bz0#t=1135s

Was that real a spin or a spiral down? Didn't see it.

As long as a flight student isn't freaking out, early on I'll either demo &/or talk them through a wing over, "box canyon" type of FAST course reversal and they love it.

Shows them it's no big deal, and fun, to really make an aircraft fly safely but rigorously.

 

[OrangeOkie]

I saw nothing out of the ordinary with the demos.

 

[ClimbnSink]

My first spin was from a cfi botching mca demo. Neither one of us knew it was coming. No big deal, did a few more for practice after that. If you can't handle surprises stay home.

 

[Bill Watson]

It's been a long time since I was a student but seems like TMI.

 

[supernovae]

Makes me wish I had a diamond to train in! It is weird just watching the video and not having any idea that he's basically doing spin recovery and making it sound like a fancy turn.. I'm a nub so I wouldn't do it without a CFI and it wouldn't be any 'average' CFI either

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Putting an aircraft through intensive maneuvers teaches you how to handle a plane really well. I consider myself a much better pilot after doing Aerobatics in a Citabria.

Don't be afraid of it, It seems like a lot of people are including the OP.

 

[danpass]

I love the Diamond. The view is spectacular. It's a bit tail twitchy but the CFI mentioned it beforehand so it wasn't a surprise lol.

 

[RV10flyer]

I just watched the entire video and it sure does bring back memories of my 2nd or 3rd flights. It was fun watching the same mistakes I made...holding altitude/heading, radio calls, wind drift, looking inside WAY TOO MUCH, pushing the nose too low on stall recovery, quit flying after the mains were down, steering with aileron on the runway, applying power with brakes on while taxiing, cruising with flaps down, overshootin, undershootin, and having no clue where I was(yeah my CFI wants me to tell tower "where" I am). Thank goodness for D->.

At the time wishing I had just one more radio and four more arms/hands to hold the checklist, my pencil, map, throttle, flaps, open the air vents due to air sickness, etc. During runup, "Set your parking brake but don't ever trust it, go to 1700 and hold the throttle, don't let go of the stick due to winds, now mag check". He was thinking(like me in the beginning)...how in the heck am I going to hold and check all of this with two hands? Oops there goes the checklist and my pencil too. Ok let me unstrap and pick up dropped items. Dang it, I don't even have my seat belt on and it is stuck between the seat and door. Okay you have the brakes...

Oh the fun times. Somehow we all make it, just like that clumsy first hot date.

That was not a fully developed spin. Appeared very tame in comparison. Been there done that twice and won't forget right rudder again.

 

[alfadog]

Putting an aircraft through intensive maneuvers teaches you how to handle a plane really well. I consider myself a much better pilot after doing Aerobatics in a Citabria.

Don't be afraid of it, It seems like a lot of people are including the OP.

LOL. Not a very accurate description of OP.

You seem to be missing my point. Not about not doing it or being afraid, my concern was showing the student something without warning, that we can see, to not try this on his own without more practice and without knowing that this is a spin. An incipient spin but a spin.

And why does that concern me? Because OP is exactly the sort of student that would have gone out and tried in on his own.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

LOL. Not a very accurate description of OP.

Fair enough, My apologies.

You seem to be missing my point. Not about not doing it or being afraid, my concern was showing the student something without warning, that we can see,

I personally don't see an issue with this. Aerobatic CFI, while I was just doing chandelles (real ones, not commercial ones) I accidentally slipped, as a punishment the CFI instantly threw it into a spin (which I enjoyed) and had me recover and stated "Never slip thy turns lest the Earth rise up and smite thee"

to not try this on his own without more practice and without knowing that this is a spin. An incipient spin but a spin.

Does name really matter? A spin is a spin is a spin and by any other name (or no name) is still a spin. He can understand what it is and how it acts upon the plane without the CFI saying "this is a spin".

And why does that concern me? Because OP is exactly the sort of student that would have gone out and tried in on his own.

What's wrong with that? As long as the plane has a utility category and the pilot is solo, or with pax and with parachutes it's completely legal. As long as he has plenty of altitude it is also completely safe.

I'm unaware if the DA20/40 has a utility category.

 

[marcoseddi]

Awesome video! So clear

 

[flyingmoose]

A good job showing him how to spin the airplane?

Why not? Because its not required?

I agree that we have an incomplete picture but, if I may be allowed to guess, the maneuver seems completely foreign to the student and the CFI is definitely on the controls with him. My concern is that the CFI seems completely ignorant of the fact that the student could get into serious trouble trying that on his own and he does nothing to warn the student of the danger of spinning the airplane without competence in recovery.

Every maneuver is completely foreign to a student the first time you show it to them. You have to start somewhere. We also dont know what else they have talked about in the past, so put down your pitchfork. I will not join you.

Perhaps. Otherwise, the instructor seems competent and apparently he is a DPE so maybe there is more here than meets the eye.

Usually.

Maybe he has thicker skin. Personally, you can laugh at and/or dissect my flying videos all you like. It's all good.

My guess is, if he knew that he was taking a public flogging on a pilot forum for his teaching, that he would not do it again

You should see the start of my fixed wing logbook. Second flight is 'aileron rolls right, stall series, one turn spin and recovery'. My CFI was a Top Gun pilot at Miramar. We had a freakin blast and I learned to handle a plane.

Very nice!

It's been a long time since I was a student but seems like TMI.

Maybe we should shelter our students from all the big bad stuff. This has worked so well for us in the past. No such thing as TMI, only TLI.

 

[supernovae]

Does name really matter? A spin is a spin is a spin and by any other name (or no name) is still a spin. He can understand what it is and how it acts upon the plane without the CFI saying "this is a spin".

.

I think its important a CFI calls a spin for what it is regardless. If / when this pilot goes off to another school, another instructor, or gets his BFR or does something silly because what worked in this particular aircraft it may not be so forgiving in another, I think its important he understand spin and most importantly the purpose of the rudder thereof..

Everyone claims that this may be a great instructor and it doesn't seem odd what he does, but i'm guessing its been at least 10-15+ years since those people have had their license. They're not teaching this for better or worse and if they are, its usually the spin or aerobatics class you do AFTER your PPL license.. for better.. or worse.

And those of you with CFI in your signatures.. be honest.. are you making it sound like a fancy little maneuver or are you following what the tried and true flight syllabus and training books call it / warn us about?

 

[poadeleted21]

Fair enough, My apologies.

I personally don't see an issue with this. Aerobatic CFI, while I was just doing chandelles (real ones, not commercial ones) I accidentally slipped, as a punishment the CFI instantly threw it into a spin (which I enjoyed) and had me recover and stated "Never slip thy turns lest the Earth rise up and smite thee"

Does name really matter? A spin is a spin is a spin and by any other name (or no name) is still a spin. He can understand what it is and how it acts upon the plane without the CFI saying "this is a spin".

What's wrong with that? As long as the plane has a utility category and the pilot is solo, or with pax and with parachutes it's completely legal. As long as he has plenty of altitude it is also completely safe.

I'm unaware if the DA20/40 has a utility category.

Not terribly familiar with the maneuver but why would slipping a turn do anything other than make you not turn.

 

[whifferdill]

alfadog, I share your confusion. What we see here is not a chandelle or a spin entry or even a spiral. I don't understand the point of it. The instructor simply gets the student close to a stall, has him neutralize the stick and apply left rudder to "pirouette" the airplane. Since the stick is neutral, that airplane isn't going to spin. Pretty odd demonstration to me. Other than it being pointless and a little odd IMO, I don't have any judgments about it, not knowing how the rest of the flight and the post flight debrief on the ground was conducted.

EDIT: When I say "pointless", I say that since it seems the purpose was not explained. All the instructor seems to be doing is showing the student how to "pirouette" the airplane, with no deeper lesson about aerodynamics. That I don't get. But again, maybe there's a context we're missing.

It's actually a good demonstration of the fact that it's hard to get in trouble in an airplane if the stick is neutral. The ball being off center is not the kiss of death as some seem to teach and believe. Neutral stick gives you a low AoA. High AoA plus yaw causes problems. Low AoA plus yaw does not.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Not terribly familiar with the maneuver but why would slipping a turn do anything other than make you not turn.

Unless I am confusing a slip with a skid, I think you are, ball should be in the center.

 

[supernovae]

It's actually a good demonstration of the fact that it's hard to get in trouble in an airplane if the stick is neutral. The ball being off center is not the kiss of death as some seem to teach and believe. Neutral stick gives you a low AoA. High AoA plus yaw causes problems. Low AoA plus yaw does not.

Seems high AoA was what initiated the first stall that they used ruder to step out of and that neutral stick was just implemented to not cause one wing to further stall over another. (by increasing/reducing lift & drag respectively)

Also, neutral stick is sort of meaningless as it ignores the context of the flight where one could be trimmed out for ascent/descent/turn and what not. Lots of pilots with neutral sticks stall on takeoff and spin to their demise and a lot forget what AoA is and don't remember to point the nose down, recover and trim for Vy or whatever is recommended. None of which were spoken about here, other than "hey, fun..". But, I must say, that student has a pretty good confidence level already or he absolutely trusts his instructor

 

[poadeleted21]

Unless I am confusing a slip with a skid, I think you are, ball should be in the center.

Student pilots are taught to slip in the pattern for various reasons and repeatedly warned not to skid for any reason.

 

[supernovae]

Student pilots are taught to slip in the pattern for various reasons and repeatedly warned not to skid for any reason.

Slip in for landings are exhilarating and also taught as part of our engine out recovery landing practices so we can take a preferable field if need be and slip in to come down quick.

 

[jesse]

Unless I am confusing a slip with a skid, I think you are, ball should be in the center.

In most aircraft it's extremely difficult to spin out of a slipping turn. More difficult to spin out of a slipping turn than it is to spin out of level flight.

A skid is an entirely different issue.

 

[whifferdill]

Seems high AoA was what initiated the first stall that they used ruder to step out of and that neutral stick was just implemented to not cause one wing to further stall over another. (by increasing/reducing lift & drag respectively)

I never saw a stall. I saw a pitch up, relaxation of some back pressure and then application of left rudder, causing the airplane to yaw to the left and pitch back down while gaining airspeed. Watch the ASI the whole time...moves like a sine wave. No stall. They basically flew a parabolic arc with left rudder.

Also, neutral stick is sort of meaningless as it ignores the context of the flight where one could be trimmed out for ascent/descent/turn and what not. Lots of pilots with neutral sticks stall on takeoff and spin to their demise and a lot forget what AoA is and don't remember to point the nose down, recover and trim for Vy or whatever is recommended.

The trim tab doesn't affect AoA, it only affects pressure required to hold the elevator in a certain position. If you're holding the yoke or stick in a truly netural position, it doesn't matter how you're trimmed - the elevator will physically be in the same position, producing a specific (low) AoA. Neutral pressure is a different matter. Go up and try to produce a spin with the yoke or stick in the neutral position, regardless of how you're trimmed. You'll have a tough time.

 

[supernovae]

I never saw a stall. I saw a pitch up, relaxation of some back pressure and then application of left rudder, causing the airplane to yaw to the left and pitch back down while gaining airspeed. Watch the ASI the whole time...moves like a sine wave. No stall. They basically flew a parabolic arc with left rudder.

I just heard pitch up, stall horn blarring and rudder. I'll watch zoomed in after work.

The trim tab doesn't affect AoA, it only affects pressure required to hold the elevator in a certain position. If you're holding the yoke or stick in a truly netural position, it doesn't matter how you're trimmed - the elevator will physically be in the same position, producing a specific (low) AoA. Neutral pressure is a different matter. Go up and try to produce a spin with the yoke or stick in the neutral position, regardless of how you're trimmed. You'll have a tough time.

Seems confusing to speak it in such a fashion. For a student pilot, every condition of flight is trimmed for a specific AoA, either straight and level, ascent or descent. You can further increase/reduce AoA by using the yoke directly of course and yes, its harder to spin an airplane in a specific trimmed configuration, but if you're setting up for a stall - such as what this video appeared to be doing, i'm not sure what the context of the practice us as it doesn't seem practical or useful to the student. Other than something fun.. with no context.

 

[docmirror]

There was a time when the FAA changed the training to emphasize incipient spin, or spin avoidance because I guess there were some training accidents where the spin was unrecoverable, or not recovered correctly causing accidents. That's what I remember anyway.

I think that's an important aspect of training, and I can see this in lieu of an actual spin, because spins don't just happen while your flying along straight and level. Perhaps this was a simulation of an incipient spin and what to do in that case of higher G loading(at first), and the effects of rudder on the way the wings support the plane.

My thoughts are that we need to keep students aware of the dangers of the low level turning spin entry, and how to avoid and then recover from it. Modern planes are quite resistant to spin entry, and thus if it happens to a pilot at low level the recovery actions are delayed, or not applied and that leads to a stall/spin accident. Not sure how applicable the procedure was, but I'm not gonna second guess a CFI with just this.