Cessna seat track AD

DavidWhite

DavidWhite

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Apparently unless you are operating for hire you only need the seat track inspected at annual now.

(Im sure everyone else already knows, im always the last one to learn something)
 
DavidWhite said:
Apparently unless you are operating for hire you only need the seat track inspected at annual now.

(Im sure everyone else already knows, im always the last one to learn something)
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Not true

Quote

(g) For all airplanes, to address the unsafe condition described in paragraph (e) of this AD, you must do the following actions on the seat rails; seat rollers, washers, and axle bolts or bushings; seat roller housings and the tangs; and lock pin springs, unless already done, initially within the next 100 hours time-in-service (TIS) after the last inspection done following AD 87-20-03 R2 or within the next 12 calendar months after the effective date of this AD, whichever occurs first. Repetitively thereafter do the actions at intervals not to exceed every 100 hours TIS or every 12 months, whichever occurs first:
 
my seat track was ALWAYS falling. It was scary and could have been dangerous. They fixed it but it slips every once in a while. Annoying.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
my seat track was ALWAYS falling. It was scary and could have been dangerous. They fixed it but it slips every once in a while. Annoying.
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Maybe you should review how to maintain altitude.;)

I always do the 'Cessna butt wiggle' before engine start to make sure the pins are secure. A couple times I have had to readjust. Only once did I have to take the plane in for unscheduled mx.
 
Richard said:
Maybe you should review how to maintain altitude.;)

I always do the 'Cessna butt wiggle' before engine start to make sure the pins are secure. A couple times I have had to readjust. Only once did I have to take the plane in for unscheduled mx.
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You pilots are sooo nice to students! I'm working on my altitude maintenance I swear. Most times it slips during the beginning of the flight, pre-take off. For example, during brake check or taxi.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
You pilots are sooo nice to students! I'm working on my altitude maintenance I swear. Most times it slips during the beginning of the flight, pre-take off. For example, during brake check or taxi.
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You don't check prior to engine start? Anything with Cessna in it's name, I check prior to engine start, during taxi, at the run-up, prior to departure. And I have already briefed (with front seat pax if they are rated pilot) my actions should my seat slip.

My suggestion is to develop that habit sooner rather than later. We wouldn't like to see, "Improper pre-flight" next to your name.:no:
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
You pilots are sooo nice to students!
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Stop playing the innocent prairie woman. Start taking responsibility to ensure the safety of your flight. This is the beginning of learning the true meaning of PIC authority.

Let me put it this way; if my hard ass stance makes you want to unfriend me, I say good. It helps me not to find out of another friend who died or was injured during a flight.
 
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Don't know what the fuss is all about. This new AD supersedes 87-20-03R2, an AD against the seat rails and locks in place for 24 years already. This new AD just adds a check of the seat roller housing's tang lengths and thicknesses.

If folks are experiencing slipping seats, the stuff isn't being maintained properly. In 19 years of numerous 150s/172s/182s in our fleet we've never had one slip. Ever. Replace the worn stuff, make sure it's rigged properly, make sure it's latched before startup, and it'll be OK.

On the other hand, we once had an adjustable seat drop down when the height adjusting nut lost its threads. Aluminum nut: stupid. If it isn't kept clean and lubricated and the thread wear checked occasionally, it can strip and lower the seat suddenly.

And we've found cracks in the seat frames numerous times, too. Often the adjustable seat will crack in the attach fork roots where the seat cushion frame attaches to the adjusting mechanism.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
Don't know what the fuss is all about. This new AD supersedes 87-20-03R2, an AD against the seat rails and locks in place for 24 years already. This new AD just adds a check of the seat roller housing's tang lengths and thicknesses.

If folks are experiencing slipping seats, the stuff isn't being maintained properly. In 19 years of numerous 150s/172s/182s in our fleet we've never had one slip. Ever. Replace the worn stuff, make sure it's rigged properly, make sure it's latched before startup, and it'll be OK.

On the other hand, we once had an adjustable seat drop down when the height adjusting nut lost its threads. Aluminum nut: stupid. If it isn't kept clean and lubricated and the thread wear checked occasionally, it can strip and lower the seat suddenly.

And we've found cracks in the seat frames numerous times, too. Often the adjustable seat will crack in the attach fork roots where the seat cushion frame attaches to the adjusting mechanism.

Dan
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Dan's 19 yrs beat my 11 yrs. And I'm just a pilot although I am welcomed into a considerable number of mx hangers. BTW: I don't run with sloppy mechanics.

Yet in my lesser experience I have had two planes in for unscheduled, once while inspecting the seat prior to boarding, once after boarding and finding the rollers had become unseated. Both planes within 25 hours after inspection.

Too, one must consider it is not the length of time (19 yrs of experience, nor 100 hours, but HOW the plane was used.) Some planes live a very hard life.

One seat just about exploded (just prior to scheduled 100 hour) when I adjusted to dislodge a seatbelt left from an unruly pax from a prior flight. It happens.

But I don't think that is neccesarily a "Cessna" problem although maybe Cessna design contributed.

I think the 'blanketing' nature of an AD is designed to supercede any anecdotal experiences.
 
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I don't know what a prarie woman is. And I did not post that I don't check my seat - just that it is annoying and *sometimes* slips. It used to slip all the time but then we told mx and they fixed it.

As soon as I get in and adjust my seat of course I check it. Call it the Cessna seat wiggle or whatever. I am not quite sure why you are talking about an unfriend thing, don't even know what that means either.

I guess we can't all just get along?
 
Richard said:
Stop playing the innocent prairie woman. Start taking responsibility to ensure the safety of your flight. This is the beginning of learning the true meaning of PIC authority.

Let me put it this way; if my hard ass stance makes you want to unfriend me, I say good. It helps me not to find out of another friend who died or was injured during a flight.
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Wow! I would go to bat for Kim, except I learned some time ago that she handles herself quite well with such situations and needs no help.

Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
Wow! I would go to bat for Kim, except I learned some time ago that she handles herself quite well with such situations and needs no help.

Doc
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Thanks, Doc, I don't think Richard knows about the time my CFI pulled my seat out (right from under me) only a few seconds after takeoff when we were VERY low to the ground. I shot to the back of the airplane and could not reach the controls. I was able to not panic and regain aircraft control without pulling on the yoke or something stupid like that. So of course I know the dangers and I try to act as PIC.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Thanks, Doc, I don't think Richard knows about the time my CFI pulled my seat out (right from under me) only a few seconds after takeoff when we were VERY low to the ground. I shot to the back of the airplane and could not reach the controls. I was able to not panic and regain aircraft control without pulling on the yoke or something stupid like that. So of course I know the dangers and I try to act as PIC.
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Your CFI did WHAT??

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
Your CFI did WHAT??

Dan
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Long story. Started a thread about it long ago. Pre solo they do that whole distractions thing like talking to you on short final, messing with the items in the plane when you aren't looking to be sure you are doing a full pre-flight checklist, etc. My seat had been slipping a lot until MX fixed it so as a test of what I would do in a true emergency he snuck his hand under my seat (I did NOT know he did this) and then pulled the knob. I'm only 5'6" and when the seat is back all the way I can't reach the rudder pedals or the dash. A lot of pilots get upset when I tell that story; he was just trying to "test" me before I solo'd to see if I could handle an urgent situation. So I thought it was valid to bring this up here because seat track ADs are important and seat slipping can be bad.

Kimberly
 
Richard said:
Yet in my lesser experience I have had two planes in for unscheduled, once while inspecting the seat prior to boarding, once after boarding and finding the rollers had become unseated.
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If the rollers have become "unseated" I presume you mean that the tangs that go under the rail's flange (which keep the seat on the rails) had come off. Well, either those tangs were really shot, or the seat hadn't been properly put back after maintenance, or the seat stops weren't there and it had run off the rails and not been put back properly. All of them maintenance faults, not a Cessna problem.

Sure, the design leaves something to be desired, but it works if it's looked after. The new Cessnas use a much more robust setup to which the AD doesn't apply. Much heavier, too. Anybody can make a stronger, more goof-proof seat slider, but you'll end up with a lot less useful load. Airplanes involve compromises everywhere, and if we want light airplanes that can carry some load and perform well, we have to tolerate some fragility and look after the stuff that suffers.

The world's largest civil aviation lawsuit involves those seat rails. A Cessna 185 crashed in 1989 when the seat slipped, and the pilot pulled on the yoke, stalled, and crashed. They sued and were awarded $480 million. Now, based on my years of looking after those seats and rails, I would suspect that the seat hadn't been latched properly, or the parts were too badly worn to do the job.

Dan
 
MBDiagMan said:
Wow! I would go to bat for Kim, except I learned some time ago that she handles herself quite well with such situations and needs no help.

Doc
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I agree, Kimberley doesn't need anyone's help to be defended. Don't adopt the posture that this is an attack on a person. If it is an attack at all, it is upon an 'unsafe' habit. I didn't say she doesn't check her seat, in fact, she said she does check it. Even to the point of say when it *sometimes* slips it's when she is already moving under ship's power.

My point of contention is the single best time to check is prior to engine start. Our job is to manage risk to preserve flight safety. What better time than before engine start to make the seat check?

In plain Engrish, we should strive to make a 'safe' habit 'safer'.

I thought the settlement was $410 million. Doesn't matter the amount, it was a stupid award. Let's not be with stupid.
 
Richard said:
I agree, Kimberley doesn't need anyone's help to be defended. Don't adopt the posture that this is an attack on a person. If it is an attack at all, it is upon an 'unsafe' habit. I didn't say she doesn't check her seat, in fact, she said she does check it. Even to the point of say when it *sometimes* slips it's when she is already moving under ship's power.

My point of contention is the single best time to check is prior to engine start. Our job is to manage risk to preserve flight safety. What better time than before engine start to make the seat check?

In plain Engrish, we should strive to make a 'safe' habit 'safer'.

I thought the settlement was $410 million. Doesn't matter the amount, it was a stupid award. Let's not be with stupid.
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If it is not an attack then perhaps in future posts you could stop calling me a prarie woman.
 
Dan, due to twisted bits and pieces caused by heavy side loading and a fidgety heavy pax, the seat structure became off kilter. Not even noticeably until the slight movement when I adjust to free the lap belt prior to a flight. Like a tightly coiled spring, that one movement sprang others into movement and before I knew it, I had a seat I could lift clear of the aircraft.
 
Of course I will publicly appolgize to Kimberley for any perceived slight against her person. Kimberely, I apologize for exposing you to my neanderthal innards. I will try very hard to avoid doing that again.

When I wrote that, I had a specific fatal accident in mind. Circa 1985, a comely student pilot kilt herself when practicing T&Gs. This was in Taft or Shafter, I forget. On the go, her seat slid back, she lost control and plummeted to a post crash fire in a C-152. It was so eeriely similar to what you are doing now. Be safe, please.

Safe isn't a promise. Safe is a verb. It requires constant diligence.
 
If you complied with this inspection on 17 July 2011, when is it due again?
 
Richard said:
When I wrote that, I had a specific fatal accident in mind. Circa 1985, a comely student pilot kilt herself when practicing T&Gs. This was in Taft or Shafter, I forget. On the go, her seat slid back, she lost control and plummeted to a post crash fire in a C-152. It was so eeriely similar to what you are doing now. Be safe, please.

Safe isn't a promise. Safe is a verb. It requires constant diligence.
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That must have been a very small student,, the 152 seat only travels about 3 inches aft.
 
Tom-D said:
That must have been a very small student,, the 152 seat only travels about 3 inches aft.
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Yes, but if she grabbed the yoke in an instinctive attempt to pull herself back, even 1 inch would be enough. Also, some people are quite that small.
 
Richard said:
After semi-careful review of Post #2, I have a question: Do you believe the AD will prohibit every occurrence the AD is designed to prevent?
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no...
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Long story. Started a thread about it long ago. Pre solo they do that whole distractions thing like talking to you on short final, messing with the items in the plane when you aren't looking to be sure you are doing a full pre-flight checklist, etc. My seat had been slipping a lot until MX fixed it so as a test of what I would do in a true emergency he snuck his hand under my seat (I did NOT know he did this) and then pulled the knob. I'm only 5'6" and when the seat is back all the way I can't reach the rudder pedals or the dash. A lot of pilots get upset when I tell that story; he was just trying to "test" me before I solo'd to see if I could handle an urgent situation. So I thought it was valid to bring this up here because seat track ADs are important and seat slipping can be bad.

Kimberly
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Kim,

I'm sorry, but I have to say this. It sounds like you're about to go up for your checkride soon. At that point, you won't have your CFI with you anymore and you're going to be the one responsible for determining how every event impacts the safety of your flight. It really is time to start thinking critically about things like this and determine just how comfortable you are with them.

CFIs aren't infallible. "Tests" like this can turn deadly. I rank crap like this right up there with instructors who pull the mixture on downwind to see how you handle the engine really quitting. There just isn't any reason to do it...and even if he DID do it, why would he choose to do it that low? He left you absolutely no outs. He could have had you climb to 5000-6000 feet and had you set up for a power on stall and done it there. Then, if you panicked, at least he would have had time to recover. As it turned out, you handled it well...but what if you hadn't? What if you would have grabbed for, and pulled on, the yoke? What do you think his plan was? To overpower you? Are you willing to bet your life on the fact that he could have?

Some may disagree with me. I honestly don't care. There are ways for your CFI to drill Cessna's seat problems into your head without endangering both of your lives. Really, honestly, think about what could have happened and then decide how you feel about what he did to you that day. Don't just assume that, because he is your CFI, he made the right decision. In my opinion that he needlessly bet your life on the fact that you would react correctly and that if you didn't he could get you out of it. I'm not convinced that plan B would have worked.

I really like you and I like what you've brought to our board. I know you're a student and I'm not trying to attack you or beat up on you. I just can't understand why what he did doesn't bother you a little.
 
jason said:
Kim,

I'm sorry, but I have to say this. It sounds like you're about to go up for your checkride soon. At that point, you won't have your CFI with you anymore and you're going to be the one responsible for determining how every event impacts the safety of your flight. It really is time to start thinking critically about things like this and determine just how comfortable you are with them.

CFIs aren't infallible. "Tests" like this can turn deadly. I rank crap like this right up there with instructors who pull the mixture on downwind to see how you handle the engine really quitting. There just isn't any reason to do it...and even if he DID do it, why would he choose to do it that low? He left you absolutely no outs. He could have had you climb to 5000-6000 feet and had you set up for a power on stall and done it there. Then, if you panicked, at least he would have had time to recover. As it turned out, you handled it well...but what if you hadn't? What if you would have grabbed for, and pulled on, the yoke? What do you think his plan was? To overpower you? Are you willing to bet your life on the fact that he could have?

Some may disagree with me. I honestly don't care. There are ways for your CFI to drill Cessna's seat problems into your head without endangering both of your lives. Really, honestly, think about what could have happened and then decide how you feel about what he did to you that day. Don't just assume that, because he is your CFI, he made the right decision. In my opinion that he needlessly bet your life on the fact that you would react correctly and that if you didn't he could get you out of it. I'm not convinced that plan B would have worked.

I really like you and I like what you've brought to our board. I know you're a student and I'm not trying to attack you or beat up on you. I just can't understand why what he did doesn't bother you a little.
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I was mad when he did this. He messed with me all the time, this was pre-solo, I didn't know better and thought it was part of the training. Now I know better. He hasn't done anything in a long time except yesterday when closing my eyes for unusual attitutes then doing VOR work with my foggles still on. He'd messed with a lot while my eyes were closed. Took me a while to figure it out.
 
jason said:
Kim,

I'm sorry, but I have to say this. It sounds like you're about to go up for your checkride soon. At that point, you won't have your CFI with you anymore and you're going to be the one responsible for determining how every event impacts the safety of your flight. It really is time to start thinking critically about things like this and determine just how comfortable you are with them.

CFIs aren't infallible. "Tests" like this can turn deadly. I rank crap like this right up there with instructors who pull the mixture on downwind to see how you handle the engine really quitting. There just isn't any reason to do it...and even if he DID do it, why would he choose to do it that low? He left you absolutely no outs. He could have had you climb to 5000-6000 feet and had you set up for a power on stall and done it there. Then, if you panicked, at least he would have had time to recover. As it turned out, you handled it well...but what if you hadn't? What if you would have grabbed for, and pulled on, the yoke? What do you think his plan was? To overpower you? Are you willing to bet your life on the fact that he could have?

Some may disagree with me. I honestly don't care. There are ways for your CFI to drill Cessna's seat problems into your head without endangering both of your lives. Really, honestly, think about what could have happened and then decide how you feel about what he did to you that day. Don't just assume that, because he is your CFI, he made the right decision. In my opinion that he needlessly bet your life on the fact that you would react correctly and that if you didn't he could get you out of it. I'm not convinced that plan B would have worked.

I really like you and I like what you've brought to our board. I know you're a student and I'm not trying to attack you or beat up on you. I just can't understand why what he did doesn't bother you a little.
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I'm with ya Jesse, you just don't induce real emergencies on students.

But this old Prevert wants to know how the instructor did this "he snuck his hand under my seat (I did NOT know he did this) and then pulled the knob".

this is a C-152, the latch is on the left side of the seat. under her leg..
 
Tom-D said:
I'm with ya Jesse, you just don't induce real emergencies on students.

But this old Prevert wants to know how the instructor did this "he snuck his hand under my seat (I did NOT know he did this) and then pulled the knob".

this is a C-152, the latch is on the left side of the seat. under her leg..
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I do not think a "prevert" needs a photo but I can promise you I adjust my seat each time I fly and it is on the RIGHT side. I fly a 1978 Cessna 152.

But why we are knit picking how he did it I do not know. Pre-solo students on takeoff are busy looking outside the airplane and pitching for Vy - not looking at what their CFI's hands are doing.
 
I've never done that to a student and if a CFI I flew with did that to me at any point in the flight the door would be open and the idiot would be out on his/her can in no time.

There are legitimate distractions and there is horseplay. The latter has resulted in "just joking" turning into actual emergencies.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I was mad when he did this. He messed with me all the time, this was pre-solo, I didn't know better and thought it was part of the training. Now I know better. He hasn't done anything in a long time except yesterday when closing my eyes for unusual attitutes then doing VOR work with my foggles still on. He'd messed with a lot while my eyes were closed. Took me a while to figure it out.
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Well, that's good to hear. When you said the following...

kimberlyanne546 said:
A lot of pilots get upset when I tell that story; he was just trying to "test" me before I solo'd to see if I could handle an urgent situation.
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...it sounded like you didn't quite understand why other pilots were mad because you felt like your CFI was just testing you.

I'm still not sure if you were/are mad because he was "messing with you" or because he could have killed you that day...but I guess it's not my problem. Messing with you is what CFIs are supposed to do. Messing with you by intentionally getting you lost...or by really doing a number on you with an unusual attitude is one thing. Messing with you by forcing you into a situation where if you react the wrong way he may not be able to save your lives is another.

I've seen your other posts and know that you're a conservative flyer. Nothing wrong with that. But, as a conservative flyer, this story should make you livid with your CFI. I just wasn't seeing that conveyed in the tone of your posts.
 
jason said:
Well, that's good to hear. When you said the following...



...it sounded like you didn't quite understand why other pilots were mad because you felt like your CFI was just testing you.

I'm still not sure if you were/are mad because he was "messing with you" or because he could have killed you that day...but I guess it's not my problem. Messing with you is what CFIs are supposed to do. Messing with you by intentionally getting you lost...or by really doing a number on you with an unusual attitude is one thing. Messing with you by forcing you into a situation where if you react the wrong way he may not be able to save your lives is another.

I've seen your other posts and know that you're a conservative flyer. Nothing wrong with that. But, as a conservative flyer, this story should make you livid with your CFI. I just wasn't seeing that conveyed in the tone of your posts.
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Jason,

Sometimes it is hard for me to see that other pilots are actually trying to help me out rather than knit pick and criticize my every move.

Thank you for your concerns, and I don't know if I was "livid" or at least as mad as I should have been.

All I can do now is focus on the checkride (we're doing a full length mock checkride tomorrow). It would of course make no sense to quit now.

I will try my best in the future to make the improvements that both you and other posters have suggested, since I know they were meant as a life saving device and not a lecture.

I'm off to solo fly now - pretending to park the plane at the DPE's office as a practice for the day that I actually will pick him up if that day ever comes!
 
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