Cessna POH / owners manual

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
What part of the standard OM is a flight manual?
Which part is mandatory, and which is not?

If the aircraft has upgraded equipment, such a P-Ponk mod, Does the POH/MO take precedence or does the STC.

If it has extended baggage STC what happens to the W&B portion of the OM?

Talk to Cessna
 
I won't pretend to be an A&P, but wouldn't the STC take precedence?
Cessna won't have the new weights nor moments fore the changes. The various speeds are likely to be different too with the PPonk mods (stall speeds, Va, Vx, Vy, etc).
Logic would suggest that a new W&B be published as some sort of addendum, since Cessna can't provide the information as it isn't their engineering. Therefore, the original POH/OM can't be used anymore.

Tom, I'm pretty sure you'd know all this.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I won't pretend to be an A&P, but wouldn't the STC take precedence?
Cessna won't have the new weights nor moments fore the changes. The various speeds are likely to be different too with the PPonk mods (stall speeds, Va, Vx, Vy, etc).
Logic would suggest that a new W&B be published as some sort of addendum, since Cessna can't provide the information as it isn't their engineering. Therefore, the original POH/OM can't be used anymore.

Tom, I'm pretty sure you'd know all this.
Click to expand...
I know what I believe to be correct.

looking for other's opinion.
Cessna gives graphs and moments in the W&B section, If this portion is a Flight manual where do we get authorization to change that? The STC does not do that.
 
What paperwork/flight manual supplement came with the PPonk engine? What came with the extended baggage stc? Those supplements amend the original flight manual performance charts and W&B section.

Your answer on what the operator's manual is, is going to be at least somewhat influenced based on the model year of the airplane and if it is new enough to require the serialized "POH" or if it is older and just requires the "flight manual" or operating limitations...

As a side note, how extensive of a flight manual supplement came with the PPonk engine? What does it tell you to expect for climb rates, power settings, cruise speeds, etc?
 
mondtster said:
What paperwork/flight manual supplement came with the PPonk engine? What came with the extended baggage stc? Those supplements amend the original flight manual performance charts and W&B section.

Your answer on what the operator's manual is, is going to be at least somewhat influenced based on the model year of the airplane and if it is new enough to require the serialized "POH" or if it is older and just requires the "flight manual" or operating limitations...

As a side note, how extensive of a flight manual supplement came with the PPonk engine? What does it tell you to expect for climb rates, power settings, cruise speeds, etc?
Click to expand...

I'll be back with that,, the books are in the A/C
 
Pponk doesn't have a flight manual supplement that I
know of. Markings on your tach change. That's about it. For STCs like the Kenmore gross increase? You get new W&B charts. They're required to be in the airplane while operating it.
 
Stewartb said:
Pponk doesn't have a flight manual supplement that I
know of. Markings on your tach change.
Click to expand...

I kind of figured that, which is why I asked. So does PPonk advertise no horsepower increase or put limitations on manifold pressure and rpm to limit horsepower? That’s the only way I can think of that they would be able to get the thing approved with no flight manual supplement that contains new performance charts.
 
The paperwork for a Pponk STC modified engine says 235 hp. I can’t remember what the supplemental data tag says but it may be shown there as well.
 
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All parts of the AFM are mandatory unless superceded by a revision or STC. An extended baggage mod gives you better access to the baggage area, but other than having to weigh the aircraft to find your new empty weight and CG, it does not (usually) modify the loading calculations.

Engine upgrade STCs usually include a supplement for the new engine operating parameters. They sometimes come with a gross weight increase, though it usually covers the increased weight of the engine and sometimes not much more. You've increased the power, but have not improved the structure of the aircraft, so I wouldn't expect it to increase the useful load.

If an STC doesn't come with new loading charts, you don't have any authorization to change what the manual says.

mondtster said:
I kind of figured that, which is why I asked. So does PPonk advertise no horsepower increase or put limitations on manifold pressure and rpm to limit horsepower? That’s the only way I can think of that they would be able to get the thing approved with no flight manual supplement that contains new performance charts.
Click to expand...

Pponk advertises both a horsepower and performance increase. Performance charts are not limitations, so no supplement to them is needed.
 
An STC only modifies the things that it modifies. If it changes the weight limit and/or envelope, that supplemental data needs to be used instead of the manufacturer's data. Manufacturer's data still needs to be used for everything that doesn't change.
 
Tom-D said:
I know what I believe to be correct.

looking for other's opinion.
Cessna gives graphs and moments in the W&B section, If this portion is a Flight manual where do we get authorization to change that? The STC does not do that.
Click to expand...
What do you do when you replace equipment on a plane? For example, if you were to replace a Narco MK12A radio and NARCO VHT-3 with a Garmin 650, I'm pretty sure a new W&B is made. How do you do that? Where do you place the new W&B information?

I see flight schools where the plane has upgraded equipment, and a new W&B in a binder or another place
 
This question is easily solved by reading the applicable FAA approved (or other authority) Airplane Flight Manual Supplements...

Almost every supplement written in the last 20 years says "The information herein supplements or supersedes the basic manual only in those areas listed. For Limitations, Procedures, and Performance information not contained in this Supplement, consult the basic Airplane Flight Manual" or similar verbiage.
 
If there is an STC that changes the aerodynamics I’d bet the STC would include a new ‘envelope’ or fore and aft CG limits. I’ve flown a couple planes with horsepower increases that have a new Max Gross. Something like an ‘extended baggage’ STC, which I assume just means you can put more weight back there, I wouldn’t think would change the ‘envelope.’ A new engine that is heavier or lighter than the original or anything that just adds or subtracts weight, but not the aerodynamics should just require a new ‘empty airplane moment.’ The POH doesn’t have that, it’s on the W&B form. The STC takes precedence over the POH/OM for those parts of it where the STC says it does. If it doesn’t say change something, then you don’t.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
What do you do when you replace equipment on a plane? For example, if you were to replace a Narco MK12A radio and NARCO VHT-3 with a Garmin 650, I'm pretty sure a new W&B is made. How do you do that? Where do you place the new W&B information?

I see flight schools where the plane has upgraded equipment, and a new W&B in a binder or another place
Click to expand...

In another place like in the Airplane where it is required to be?
 
I'm not sure how everyone gets W&B so confused, an extended baggage compartment is typically only adding additional areas where stuff can be stored, it IS NOT CHANGING the certified weight and balance limits. An STC extended baggage kit likely won't have ANY supplement.

That's completely separate from computing a new empty weight due to equipment changes.
 
When I got a field approval for an approved Supercub cargo pod on a PA-12 the FAA required me to compose a flight manual supplement and have it signed off by FAA Engineering. No gross weight increase or change in the CG envelope. It was more about crossing T’s and dotting I’s. The inclusion of a supplement sometimes has more to do with when the approval came than what the modification does.

Pponk advertises 265/275 hp but the STC paperwork does not use those numbers. I don’t remember the story but it was done that way intentionally.

My Cessna has a variety of STC mods yet the only flight manual supplement I carry is the factory-issued floatplane supplement.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
What do you do when you replace equipment on a plane? For example, if you were to replace a Narco MK12A radio and NARCO VHT-3 with a Garmin 650, I'm pretty sure a new W&B is made. How do you do that? Where do you place the new W&B information?

I see flight schools where the plane has upgraded equipment, and a new W&B in a binder or another place
Click to expand...

#1 Buy a binder

#2 put the Owner's Manual, Pilot's Operating Handbook (as applicable) into binder.

#3 Copy all equipment lists, equipment list revisions and put into binder.

#4 Copy all weight and balance documents, weight and balance revisions and put into binder.

#5 Copy all regulating authority approved Airplane Flight Manual Supplements into binder.

#6 Put any FAA form 337 into binder for extended range fuel tank per 14 CFR Part 43 Appendix B (only 337 ever required to be on the airplane)

#7 Marvel at your organized binder. It is essentially the equivalent to a real FAA approved Airplane Flight Manual that you would find on any jet built in the last 20 years.
 

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Stewartb said:
Pponk advertises 265/275 hp but the STC paperwork does not use those numbers. I don’t remember the story but it was done that way intentionally.
Click to expand...

If I were going to bet, I’d bet they used the original o-470 power rating. This isn’t uncommon, some of the old Bonanza engine STCs limit power to the original power ratings so they didn’t have to do additional flight or vibration testing. Pretty much everyone ignores those limitations as far as I know, as it was just an easier way to get the STC approved.

It’s no different than why the Micro Aerodynamics VG kits offer no flight manual supplement because they say there are no changes to stall speeds, or how Sutton doesn’t make any horsepower gain claims for their Cub exhausts.
 
If I installed an extended baggage and the STC approval didn't come with a supplemental loading document, I'd just make my own, and add it to the binder I made in post #17. No its not an FAA approved document and no it doesn't have to be. Stamp the thing "for reference only" if you want.
 
Hmm. Interesting examples. My Pponk experience is that hp matters and there’s no replacement for displacement. Night and day difference. On the other hand,
I don’t find VGs make an important stall speed difference and Sutton’s exhaust doesn’t increase horsepower.
 
bnt83 said:
#1 Buy a binder

#2 put the Owner's Manual, Pilot's Operating Handbook (as applicable) into binder.

#3 Copy all equipment lists, equipment list revisions and put into binder.

#4 Copy all weight and balance documents, weight and balance revisions and put into binder.

#5 Copy all regulating authority approved Airplane Flight Manual Supplements into binder.

#6 Put any FAA form 337 into binder for extended range fuel tank per 14 CFR Part 43 Appendix B (only 337 ever required to be on the airplane)

#7 Marvel at your organized binder. It is essentially the equivalent to a real FAA approved Airplane Flight Manual that you would find on any jet built in the last 20 years.
Click to expand...
We have already done ADLOG and every thing is in there.
All old logs, all 337s, copies of all STCs,
this aircraft flew from 1973 to 1991 with nothing placed in the OM for W&B no empty weight, nothing to use as a Empty weight C/G for the use of the graphs given in the OM.

So, I'm doing the W&B by weighing the empty aircraft = step 1 square 1
I have no paper on the extended baggage, am dealing with FSDO on that. CD from OKC on the way. But My PMI says there is nothing on file.
Remember this aircraft has been in dry storage since 1991, most paper work is dry as parchment.
New AWC is ordered, new registration is being ordered.

Thanks for the info. :)
 
Tom-D said:
We have already done ADLOG and every thing is in there.
All old logs, all 337s, copies of all STCs,
this aircraft flew from 1973 to 1991 with nothing placed in the OM for W&B no empty weight, nothing to use as a Empty weight C/G for the use of the graphs given in the OM.

So, I'm doing the W&B by weighing the empty aircraft = step 1 square 1
I have no paper on the extended baggage, am dealing with FSDO on that. CD from OKC on the way. But My PMI says there is nothing on file.
Remember this aircraft has been in dry storage since 1991, most paper work is dry as parchment.
New AWC is ordered, new registration is being ordered.

Thanks for the info. :)
Click to expand...

You carry the ADLOG on the airplane? The binder I'm talking about is contains everything that should be onboard the airplane. ADLOG stays home.
 
What ticks me off is mechanics not doing the job. I'm still trying to get a company to fix their crap paperwork, no equipment list revision or weight and balance revision for an autopilot job and a GDL82 installation. The autopilot 337 wasn't even signed by an IA!
 
`
bnt83 said:
You carry the ADLOG on the airplane? The binder I'm talking about is contains everything that should be onboard the airplane. ADLOG stays home.
Click to expand...
Right.... what goes in the aircraft is only what is required.
none of the STCs I have on this 182 are required to be carried on board.
 
bnt83 said:
What ticks me off is mechanics not doing the job. I'm still trying to get a company to fix their crap paperwork, no equipment list revision or weight and balance revision for an autopilot job and a GDL82 installation. The autopilot 337 wasn't even signed by an IA!
Click to expand...
I've been involved with this 182 for about 3 weeks, so far I'm nearing $5000.00 in labor and materials, all new filters, seat tracks, wheels tire & tubes, brake disks, brake pucks, research, ADLOG, ELT, Cleaning (time) De-preservation of the engine, and the annual inspection. and I have yet to start an engine that was never started or tested after the overhaul in 2001.
Yep, the A&P-IA who overhauled this 0-470-50 never started it or completed the RTS entry. HE did give a good sign off as to what he did prior to his demise. but I'm the A&P-IA who will return it to service.
 
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Tom-D said:
I've been involved with this 182 for about 3 weeks, so far I'm nearing $5000.00 in labor and materials, all new filters, seat tracks, wheels tire & tubes, brake disks, brake pucks, research, ADLOG, ELT, Cleaning (time) De-preservation of the engine, and the annual inspection. and I have yet to start an engine that was never started or tested after the overhaul in 2001.
Yep, the A&P-IA who overhauled this 0-470-50 never started it or completed the RTS entry. HE did give a good sign off as to what he did prior to his demise. but I'm the A&P-IA who will return it to service.
Click to expand...

Hopefully this shop fixes their crap, they know about, they admitted it was bad and promised to fix it, 17 days of silence after that. Its so easy to fix they should have done it in a couple hours.
 
The first question is WHICH 182. The manual requirements changed over time on the 182 Type Certificate. And yes, the STC may augment the requirement.
I would think an A&P should be able to determine what the required documents are for an aircraft.

I have a half a dozen STCs on my plane that mandate "flight manual supplements" except there's no "flight manual" to supplement. I've worked with a couple of mechanics (and some very savvy Navion ones) to get all the REQUIRED documents in a binder in the back of my Navion. I did this about ten years ago right before my Instrument checkride in the event the examiner asked (he didn't). It lives back there. I've got the essential information elsewhere. That's purely to make the FAA happy.
 
I order a brand new OM/POH from Textron for about $40. They come in spiral bound books, which makes it easy to take them apart. I copy that book to 32 pound paper, three hole punch that and add that to my binder, at the same time scanning a copy to my ipad.
 
Do you get the FAA to sign off on the new manual? Isn’t the AFM or POH specific to one serial number?
 
Are you sure you're using the approved item? The POH is issued for a specific serial number, and I thought they were much more expensive than that.

The Pilot's Information Manual is usually around $40 and includes most of what's in the POH, but it's not the same thing and won't suffice if you get ramp checked.
 
Eric Gleason said:
Are you sure you're using the approved item? The POH is issued for a specific serial number, and I thought they were much more expensive than that.

The Pilot's Information Manual is usually around $40 and includes most of what's in the POH, but it's not the same thing and won't suffice if you get ramp checked.
Click to expand...

That depends on the age (and therefore what regulation it was certified under). Part 23 aircraft have POH requirements, CAR 3 aircraft do not.
 
Eric Gleason said:
Are you sure you're using the approved item? The POH is issued for a specific serial number, and I thought they were much more expensive than that.

The Pilot's Information Manual is usually around $40 and includes most of what's in the POH, but it's not the same thing and won't suffice if you get ramp checked.
Click to expand...

Its pretty simple, order it directly from Textron pubs. The part number of the book needs to match the Type Certificate.

upload_2018-8-23_11-10-55.png
 
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Stewartb said:
Do you get the FAA to sign off on the new manual? Isn’t the AFM or POH specific to one serial number?
Click to expand...

Its funny you bring that up, if you order a new AFM for a _________________ (insert 5 year old jet) it may not even have the serial number or registration number blocks filled in on the title page. All the aftermarket data added after airplane delivered doesn't come with it so that stuff will either need to be transferred from the old one or collected and added through records research. That data will be aftermarket STC/Field Approved supplements, Weight and Balance revisions, Equipment List revision (as applicable). An AFM for a Cessna 750 is under $500 IIRC.
 
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My Cessna POH is specific to my airplane. It appears to have been noted by the factory. My PA-12 AFM was never made legal by having the FAA sign it off. The FAA was who told me that I needed to do it. My DAR told me I needed to make an AFM for my experimental, too. The difference being that I’m the manufacturer so I can assign it. I’m no expert on AFM legality but that’s my pirep.
 
Stewartb said:
My Cessna POH is specific to my airplane. It appears to have been noted by the factory. My PA-12 AFM was never made legal by having the FAA sign it off. The FAA was who told me that I needed to do it. My DAR told me I needed to make an AFM for my experimental, too. The difference being that I’m the manufacturer so I can assign it. I’m no expert on AFM legality but that’s my pirep.
Click to expand...

I think there is a lot of misunderstandings surrounding approved aircraft manuals. If that were true we would have to send the AFM out for approval anytime:

  • An aircraft is imported
  • An aircraft is exported
  • An AFM is replaced
The FAA, EASA, ANAC, TCCA, DGAC, et al don't have time for all that.

Having the FAA approve operating limitations when getting a CofA for a homebuilt is a whole different topic.
 
I asked about the approval of a flight manual because my 1975 POH is factory tagged specifically to my airplane, plus I had a couple of other related experiences with the FAA regarding "approval" of flight manuals. My experiences, my airplanes, my comments. Nothing more.
 
Eric Gleason said:
Are you sure you're using the approved item? The POH is issued for a specific serial number, and I thought they were much more expensive than that.

The Pilot's Information Manual is usually around $40 and includes most of what's in the POH, but it's not the same thing and won't suffice if you get ramp checked.
Click to expand...

Cost is whatever it is.

This is the only manual available for this airplane. There isn't any FAA signatures anywhere on it. There is no blocks for the FAA to sign. It comes blank just like that from the mothership even after telling them what serial number its for.

upload_2018-8-23_13-10-3.png
 
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