Cessna Cardinal C177B Pilots and Owners - Training and Flt Characteristics.

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fly4usa

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fly4usa
I am teaching a PVT student in C177B 180HP and CS Prop. First flight went well. As CFI I have zero time in C177B. The student has time with other instructors and C172. He decided to biy this plane and I am finishing his PVT. Needs 10 hours of solo... dual and solo cross country, flight test prep. Right now I am doing pre-solo as required I do by FAR's. First flight knocked out most of requirements. He did a good job.

First the student who bought the plane says it has 220HP? I guess there was some upgrades of 180HP to 200HP.... The C177RG has 200HP. The students C177B POH is unchanged. Still researching. There was a STC for 210HP IO390 for the C177RG's in 2009. However the POH for C177B is stock 180HP version. Either he is mistaken or there must be a supplemental POH. I am going to need to see the plane logs and figure out what engine it has. 20 more HP clearly would change the POH. He may be mistaken?

Are there any weird characteristics in slip, clean and full flaps? I have to pre solo him and one is slips to landings. It is one of the last things to do. We can go to altitude and practice but just wanted to see if there is anything?

Landing seemed normal. I am letting student fly of course. This is a 1970 "B" with the 2400 series wing. It still has slotted horizontal stabilator. It was not too touchy.

The student did have some altitude holding issue in steep turns. One time I helped was steep turn back pressure. The force was a tad heavy but not bad. I might have him trim in steep turns. Personally I would rather leave it in trimmed straight and level and hold the back pressure, but it's preference. He consistently lost more than 100 feet. It's a matter of practice.

I noticed in slow flight you do get burble or aerodynamic feedback with good control. The stall horn comes on early in stalls. Never did full break as this was first flight, but will do full stalls in next flight. Again it seemed normal (different than C172).

I will learn the flying characteristics over time, but hoping some C177B pilots can give me insight. Cheers.
 
I own and fly a C-177B. They are great airplanes in my opinion….like most, they would benefit from additional HP, but I am not aware of any engine upgrades for the B model cardinals, especially to 220 HP. As for slips, the Cardinal handles slips very well, I don’t believe any of the 177B models have any restrictions on slipping with flaps.

FYI, all Cardinal have the slotted stabilator. Cessna modded the original 1968 C-177 as part of the Cardinal Rule modifications.

Cardinals tend to be nose heavy, especially with two up front and no baggage. For normal landings I like to use 20 deg flaps, but they land just fine using 30 degs too. Feel free to pm me if you have questions.
 
Almost certainly still 180hp. The 180 and 200hp 360 Lycomings a very different engines.
I've owned an RG and have hundreds of hours in all versions of the 177. It slips beautifully with no restrictions on flap use. I typically use 20 degrees of flaps and slip as needed.
Since you are new to them you should be aware (and teach) a couple of important things on preflight:
The fuel tank vents are tubes that point aft out at the wing tips. Make sure they aren't loose or otherwise in a position to interfere with the ailerons.
Carefully feel the stabilator for slop/play - both up/down and fore/aft - out at the tips. Anything more than barely perceptible needs to be addressed.
Look in the tail cone like you would a Piper.
Be very careful with those wide doors. Park into the wind at every opportunity. A tail wind will fold those doors badly towards the front.

Pretty difficult to load tail heavy, but if you intentionally load towards the aft limit it will cruise noticeably faster.

Other then that, have fun. The B model has no bad habits
 
fly4usa said:
I am teaching a PVT student in C177B 180HP and CS Prop. First flight went well. As CFI I have zero time in C177B. The student has time with other instructors and C172. He decided to biy this plane and I am finishing his PVT. Needs 10 hours of solo... dual and solo cross country, flight test prep. Right now I am doing pre-solo as required I do by FAR's. First flight knocked out most of requirements. He did a good job.

First the student who bought the plane says it has 220HP? I guess there was some upgrades of 180HP to 200HP.... The C177RG has 200HP. The students C177B POH is unchanged. Still researching. There was a STC for 210HP IO390 for the C177RG's in 2009. However the POH for C177B is stock 180HP version. Either he is mistaken or there must be a supplemental POH. I am going to need to see the plane logs and figure out what engine it has. 20 more HP clearly would change the POH. He may be mistaken?

Are there any weird characteristics in slip, clean and full flaps? I have to pre solo him and one is slips to la ndings. It is one of the last things to do. We can go to altitude and practice but just wanted to see if there is anything?

Landing seemed normal. I am letting student fly of course. This is a 1970 "B" with the 2400 series wing. It still has slotted horizontal stabilator. It was not too touchy.

The student did have some altitude holding issue in steep turns. One time I helped was steep turn back pressure. The force was a tad heavy but not bad. I might have him trim in steep turns. Personally I would rather leave it in trimmed straight and level and hold the back pressure, but it's preference. He consistently lost more than 100 feet. It's a matter of practice.

I noticed in slow flight you do get burble or aerodynamic feedback with good control. The stall horn comes on early in stalls. Never did full break as this was first flight, but will do full stalls in next flight. Again it seemed normal (different than C172).

I will learn the flying characteristics over time, but hoping some C177B pilots can give me insight. Cheers.
Click to expand...
I used to own one. Did full flap foot to the floor slips with no problem, wished it had 40 sometimes. Do a weight and balance, you'll probably find it close to the forward edge of the envelope. The elevator response is a little less tweaky if you move it back. I carried jugs of water and other survival gear in the baggage compartment. Below is some good gouge for landing. Here's some other good stuff. You can get a lot without paying to join. https://www.cardinalflyers.com/home/_home.php

CARDINAL LANDINGS 101

Getting those greasers in the 177's are a snap. First, go out of the pattern and climb to a good altitude, say 3,000 or better above ground.

Set the plane up for a power off glide, with 20 degrees of flaps, and a comfortable approach speed. We were using 65 knots in Bruce's plane. In this configuration, note the amount of pitch down attitude the plane must be in to hold 65 knots and burn it into memory. Also, not how much nose up trim is required to trim for that attitude. Then go back to the pattern.

Downwind leg, 17 to 20" of manifold pressure. Opposite landing spot, carb heat, 15" mp, flaps 10 degrees and establish 80 mph glide.

Continue on a normal approach, knowing that (for now) you are limited only to 20d of flaps. On final, flaps 20d and establish the predetermined attitude for 65. If you must carry power to the runway, KEEP THE NOSE IN THAT ATTITUDE AND TAKE THE EXTRA SPEED, because when you reach the runway and reduce throttle to land, the speed will return to the target speed. You want to practice so that every approach allows you to arrive over the threshold at the same 65 attitude, flaps 20d, power completely at idle and trim full nose up.

Then make an initial flare to ONLY LEVEL THE PLANE OVER THE RUNWAY. As it settles, gently raise the nose to an attitude that obviously places the nosewheel above the mains and then freeze that attitude. You will then add tiny back pressure moves to (1) make slight checks to stop small rates of descent close to the ground and "hold the plane off of the runway and (2) to maintain that initial nose up attitude you established after the initial flare.

The trick is you are adding constant back-pressure not to keep the nose coming up higher and higher like the other box built Cessnas, but to only maintain the initial nose up attitude (with only slight rises if necessary) and let the 177 scoot along the runway until you have worked the mains down for that squeaker.

Once you get this going well for you, then go to 30d, 70 mph and do the same thing. Things just happen faster because the speed is lower and it bleeds off quicker with 30d.

Remember:



Attitude is key...don't adjust attitude onfinal with power changes..take the speed variations because when you reduce to idle the plane will return to the proper speed.

Always plan your approach so as to be crossing the threshold at the same speed, attitude, and power at idle.

When the field is made, have as much nose up trim as you can stand..full is best.
 
aftCG said:
Almost certainly still 180hp. The 180 and 200hp 360 Lycomings a very different engines.
I've owned an RG and have hundreds of hours in all versions of the 177. It slips beautifully with no restrictions on flap use. I typically use 20 degrees of flaps and slip as needed.
Since you are new to them you should be aware (and teach) a couple of important things on preflight:
The fuel tank vents are tubes that point aft out at the wing tips. Make sure they aren't loose or otherwise in a position to interfere with the ailerons.
Carefully feel the stabilator for slop/play - both up/down and fore/aft - out at the tips. Anything more than barely perceptible needs to be addressed.
Look in the tail cone like you would a Piper.
Be very careful with those wide doors. Park into the wind at every opportunity. A tail wind will fold those doors badly towards the front.

Pretty difficult to load tail heavy, but if you intentionally load towards the aft limit it will cruise noticeably faster.

Other then that, have fun. The B model has no bad habits
Click to expand...
@fly4usa Yeah on the vents. And check to make sure they're not blocked. Ya gotta blow in them and make sure they aren't obstructed. And while we're here on the subject of vents, don't park it with fuel in the both position, use either left or right. Park it on a sloped ramp with full tanks on both sometime. You'll find out why,
 
Scanning the posts above, I don't think I've got anything to add. I've got 200 hours in a 180 hp 177B, and I really liked the plane...greatly preferred it to a 172, partly because of the performance, partly because they just look cool...

Have fun!
 
I owned and flew a similar Cardinal for a number of years. Never did learn how to land the da** thing.
 
THANKS!!!! Great tips. What I was looking for.... Too bad they did not come out with the 1970 B-model out the gate. The first year or two ruined the reputation. I like the DOOR opening in wind comment. I can see how they are sails. The little roll out eyebrow windows are cute & effective, but look delicate. This plane does not have shoulder harnesses.... I have been flying in older planes of late, like older Cherokees, also no shoulder harnesses. In my RV7 I have 5 point harness. From a safety standpoint not ideal.
 
fly4usa said:
THANKS!!!! Great tips. What I was looking for.... Too bad they did not come out with the 1970 B-model out the gate. The first year or two ruined the reputation. I like the DOOR opening in wind comment. I can see how they are sails. The little roll out eyebrow windows are cute & effective, but look delicate. This plane does not have shoulder harnesses.... I have been flying in older planes of late, like older Cherokees, also no shoulder harnesses. In my RV7 I have 5 point harness. From a safety standpoint not ideal.
Click to expand...
While I will fly with the just lap belts I encourage the owners that the shoulder harness are a good investment, I know a number of people that are still here likely because of them.

www.aopa.org

Never Again: Into the corn

I was on a local pleasure flight in my Bellanca Cruisair, taking off from Twin County Airport (HLX) in Hillsville, Virginia. My friend Daniel, a student pilot, was in the right seat; I was the pilot in command. I planned to take off from Runway 19 and make a large, sweeping right turn to return...
www.aopa.org

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I love Cardinals but find the climb rate anemic.
Click to expand...
The original, 1968 models, had 150 HP, and they were anemic climbers. Starting in 1969, Cessna put 180HP in the fixed gear models, and that fixed the climb rate issue.
 
The thing about the 150hp Cardinals is they make a fantastic two seat airplane. And because everyone and their grandmother knows, a 150hp version should be avoided like the plague.

So you can buy one for less than a C150.
 
aftCG said:
The thing about the 150hp Cardinals is they make a fantastic two seat airplane. And because everyone and their grandmother knows, a 150hp version should be avoided like the plague.

So you can buy one for less than a C150.
Click to expand...


If you can find me 150 hp cardinals in flying status for less than 50k, I will buy every one you can find.
 
Crashnburn said:
The original, 1968 models, had 150 HP, and they were anemic climbers. Starting in 1969, Cessna put 180HP in the fixed gear models, and that fixed the climb rate issue.
Click to expand...
All of my Cardinal time is in 180 hp models. I was spoiled by owning a Bonanza with 300 hp.
 
Hmm, you, as a CFI were instruting someone in a plane make/model you had NEVER flown? Really???
 
Pinecone said:
Hmm, you, as a CFI were instruting someone in a plane make/model you had NEVER flown? Really???
Click to expand...
If this is directed to me, no, the only instruction I have done in Cardinals was Flight Reviews. My former airplane partner had a Cardinal for years, and we often shared stick time. I was his safety pilot quite often during his instrument training. (I am not a double I) I also did about 30 hours in a local Cardinal RG flying from Wausau to Quincy, Illinois and back for the wife of the owner. They subsequently purchased an SR-22, and I did a check out for the new Cardinal owner, whom I knew.

My former partner took me to Oshkosh in his 180 hp Cardinal. When it was time to head back to Michigan, he filed for 9,000 feet to cross the big lake. Well, when we got to the shore, it was obvious that we were not going to reach 9,000 until almost all the way across, so we settled for 7,000 as a final to take advantage of the better groundspeed.

That's why I am critical of the climb rate. I like them overall, but in my V-tail I could maintain 1,000 fpm all the way to 10,000 feet.
 
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Pinecone said:
Hmm, you, as a CFI were instruting someone in a plane make/model you had NEVER flown? Really???
Click to expand...
Not my 1st choice, but occasionally it happens.
But of course step one is get myself checked out in the airplane. Having the client watch and do this with me is part of the instruction process.
Usually starting by reviewing the manuals, NTSB reports, type clubs, etc.
After checking out 125+ types I think I have a pretty good process for checking myself out when necessary.

1st one I did was a BC12D Taylorcraft. One of my clients that I had trained through PPL bought one and needed to ferry it back to our home airport and get checked out.
Insurance wanted an instructor with at least 5 hours of BC12D time. We couldn't find any, this was mostly pre-internet. So we explained to the Insurance company that I had a lot of 7AC, Citabria, J-4, C-120/140 time as well as glider, and they approved me to provide the instruction.

After I had checked out the client he offered to put me on the insurance so I could fly it when ever I wanted. I now had more than 10 hours in the airplane. They said fine I just needed a checkout with a tailwheel instructor!!!. Ok, so I found another instructor that had never flown a Taylorcraft and he did a checkout flight with him.


I have turned down doing instruction in a few airplanes because I couldn't get a checkout flight from someone that was had time in the type.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
If this is directed to me, no, the only instruction I have done in Cardinals was Flight Reviews. My former airplane partner had a Cardinal for years, and we often shared stick time. I was his safety pilot quite often during his instrument training.
Click to expand...

No, it was not directed at you, but at the OP. I know you are smarter than that.
 
brcase said:
Not my 1st choice, but occasionally it happens.
But of course step one is get myself checked out in the airplane. Having the client watch and do this with me is part of the instruction process.
Usually starting by reviewing the manuals, NTSB reports, type clubs, etc.
After checking out 125+ types I think I have a pretty good process for checking myself out when necessary.
Click to expand...
That is reasonable. But teaching a primary student in a make/model that you have NO experience in is a bit much.

I too have checked myself out in planes. But BEFORE I instructed in them.
 
Have some hours in the club 177B. Not a lot to what's already been said. The life-and-death AD is on the carry-through spar (fail that, airplane is salvage). Really forces the pilot to use trim - the pitch forces are heavier than a 172. Best landings I ever made were with a 220+ lb. guy in the back seat, and a skinny guy in the front. Might be helpful for 2-in-front flying to add a hundred pounds or so secured in the baggage area - don't trust that plastic panel to hold it (not much strength there). The usable load is less than a 172. To me, it seemed like the takeoff performance was better than a typical 172, due to the controllable prop (at least at low altitudes). Nicer airplane for a cross-country, because of the wider cabin. There's a helpful 'type group' - cardinalflyers.com
 
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