Cessna 414 down in Yorba Linda

That’s pretty much a worthless article I’d say. Reads more like some of the :crazy::dunno::idea::yikes::rollercoaster: conversations we have here on a regular basis after a crash; speculation, conspiracy, theoretical and “it was aliens” .....
 
So, there’s a comment in the article that “Initial reports suggest that this was a VFR flight..”

Is that true? I hadn’t heard that.
 
iamtheari said:
When demonstrating high-AOA flight, are those planes' wings fully stalled (wing has exceeded its critical AOA) or do they just have an obscenely high critical AOA?
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Yes -- the AOA gauges are pegged as far as they will go, well past the actual critical AOA.

They are flying based on a combination of the Newtonian ram-air effect on the bottom of the wing and fuselage and the thrust of the burners.
 
midwestpa24 said:
As I said some. Tactical aircraft are a totally different category. We were talking transportation type aircraft. Stalling a 150,000 lb airliner is a little different than turning and burning in a 50,000 lb fighter.
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I didn't realize that physics checked the FAA type certificate to see how it should act toward a particular airplane.

You made the generalization "swept wing jets", and I was narrowing down that the post-stall behavior has to do with factors other than the angle of wing sweep and the propulsion method.
 
Hacker said:
I didn't realize that physics checked the FAA type certificate to see how it should act toward a particular airplane.

You made the generalization "swept wing jets", and I was narrowing down that the post-stall behavior has to do with factors other than the angle of wing sweep and the propulsion method.
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I wasn't trying to come off argumentative. Sorry if it sounded that way. Just that in practice, we don't routinely practice stalls in airline or corporate aircraft in the real world. You don't usually get to explore the extremes of their flight envelopes outside of the sim, because some have peculiar responses such as the 717 video posted earlier.

Your fighter aircraft, which I am jealous of BTW, you train for and are able to push the boundaries with them. That is what they were designed to do for combat, and that is what you are trained to do. Helps that if SHTF, you always have a way out of the aircraft as well.
 
FlySince9 said:
Crashed your plane? I must have missed that thread...
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I know, right? You log off to get lunch and so much happens around here.

btw, the youtube video a few posts above...that's one of the coolest things I've seen.
 
dans2992 said:
So, there’s a comment in the article that “Initial reports suggest that this was a VFR flight..”

Is that true? I hadn’t heard that.
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It's reported he departed KFUL at 2139Z. Ceilings were around 4000 broken, 5000 overcast, so he had to go through stuff to get to the 7800' where the plunge reportedly began. But for some reason I've yet to hear about an IFR flight plan, destination, or anything about ATC communications leading up to the anomaly.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I wasn't trying to come off argumentative. Sorry if it sounded that way. Just that in practice, we don't routinely practice stalls in airline or corporate aircraft in the real world. You don't usually get to explore the extremes of their flight envelopes outside of the sim, because some have peculiar responses such as the 717 video posted earlier.

Your fighter aircraft, which I am jealous of BTW, you train for and are able to push the boundaries with them. That is what they were designed to do for combat, and that is what you are trained to do. Helps that if SHTF, you always have a way out of the aircraft as well.
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Fair enough -- I wasn't trying to be combative either, but just provide a different angle of input to the discussion.

Although stalls aren't practiced in transport category aircraft by 121 crews, that's not necessarily the same as not knowing how the aircraft will react in various stall environments. It is also a bit misleading to point to the occurrences in 717 video as reasoning as to why this is. I could counter with the MD-11 stall test (it is about the 3:10 mark in this vid) where the airplane has a nice, straight break to the stall, and even the video of the turning stall that follows it shows a very controllable recovery.


The root issue isn't that there isn't data on how transport category aircraft perform out near the edges of the flight envelope (or that such behavior is so wild and dangerous) -- it is that the sims do not have flight models that incorporate all that flight test data (since what most users of the sims need out of the flight model doesn't require it, and it costs more to program it). My airline recently went through having our sims reprogrammed to incorporate a certain amount of that flight test data to support an unusual attitude and stall recovery program.
 
dtuuri said:
It sounded like normal circling to me. YMMV.
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I agree. If you were flying the AI (by hand or attitude based AP) and had vacuum pump failure... Do you suppose this might be the flight track if you were flying to the leaning AI? What about the AP? My Century 41 AP is attitude based and would probably do something similar if I didn't notice other instruments in disagreement.

This might also explain why there were zero coms (that we know of). He may have been flying that wide circle for quite a while before realizing he wasn't straight and level. As the AI continued to spin down the bank angle would gradually increase until not enough lift to keep the altitude.

Otherwise why would he go so badly off course (in circles) without coms unless this was deliberate or he was incapacitated (other possible scenarios)
 
arkvet said:
...why would he go so badly off course (in circles) without coms unless this was deliberate or he was incapacitated (other possible scenarios)
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Incapacitation, maybe the deliberate kind, is my guess, but that doesn't explain the inflight breakup. I can't wait to read the accident report and autopsy on this one.
 
Hacker said:
I could counter with the MD-11 stall test (it is about the 3:10 mark in this vid) where the airplane has a nice, straight break to the stall, and even the video of the turning stall that follows it shows a very controllable recovery.
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The elevator flutter looked a little disconcerting to me, but I suppose it's not a thing to worry about?
 
dtuuri said:
Incapacitation, maybe the deliberate kind, is my guess, but that doesn't explain the inflight breakup. I can't wait to read the accident report and autopsy on this one.
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After reading the guys facebook posts it does make you wonder...............
 
1RTK1 said:
After reading the guys facebook posts it does make you wonder...............
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eh, I've seen several cases of "I'm quitting facebook forever", "facebook friends aren't real friends" type of posts, none of which led to an intentional plane crash. Sky King excluded. but yeah, this guy did seem a lil odd.
 
N7430J the airplane you can google that...the FAA employee who had kidnapped his kid 6 weeks earlier had a bunch of fake ID’s...no thread because I don’t need to comment on the actual event...an insurance thing...
 
ABC News is saying Antonio Pastini had changed his name from Jordan Isaacson, and never served in the Marine Corps as he claimed.

I just don't get why people lie about having served in the military. Weird.
 
Stan Cooper said:
ABC News is saying Antonio Pastini had changed his name from Jordan Isaacson, and never served in the Marine Corps as he claimed.

I just don't get why people lie about having served in the military. Weird.
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You have them on this forum.
 
Hacker said:
Although stalls aren't practiced in transport category aircraft by 121 crews, that's not necessarily the same as not knowing how the aircraft will react in various stall environments. It is also a bit misleading to point to the occurrences in 717 video as reasoning as to why this is. I could counter with the MD-11 stall test (it is about the 3:10 mark in this vid) where the airplane has a nice, straight break to the stall, and even the video of the turning stall that follows it shows a very controllable recovery.
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I quoted your post not as a criticism but as a convenient entry. PLEASE don't take that 717 video as representative of the 717 fleet or any heritage twinjet.

Nauga,
and one goat, just one goat
 
nauga said:
I quoted your post not as a criticism but as a convenient entry. PLEASE don't take that 717 video as representative of the 717 fleet or any heritage twinjet.

Nauga,
and one goat, just one goat
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Verify range to target... one goat only.
 
there is also the separation of service record
 

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Challenged said:
I flew bird-dogs over in Nam myself, spent most of my time in Poontang, outside of Young Chang.
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One of my Commanders actually did fly the 0-1 in Vietnam...He hated it, he said they gave him the choice between that and the backseat of an F-4...He wanted to fly and not ride....I don't know if I would have made the same...lol


Now I can go back to lurking, I've posted more in two days than the last 7 years.
 
Unit74 said:
Not everyone rides the pine for a full 20. Others find real jobs after an enlistment or two...
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Even those that didn't retire get a DD214 as proof of service, and can request their complete military personnel file through VA eBenefits.
 
Victims in the home were identified. Tragedy.
 
midwestpa24 said:
As I said some. Tactical aircraft are a totally different category. We were talking transportation type aircraft. Stalling a 150,000 lb airliner is a little different than turning and burning in a 50,000 lb fighter.
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We used to stall the KC-135 in the actual airplane during instructor training. There were a lot of restrictions on weights, fuel distribution across all the tanks, etc. There isn't a stick-shaker, so you would go to the buffet, but prior to the actual stall. They stopped doing it years ago. Not because of any danger, but they felt the stress on the airframe wasn't worth it, and they could replicate it in the simulator.

Hacker said:
My airline recently went through having our sims reprogrammed to incorporate a certain amount of that flight test data to support an unusual attitude and stall recovery program.
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We did the same thing. I think it's a mandated thing that all 121 pilots do upset recovery training now.
 
Sluggo63 said:
We used to stall the KC-135 in the actual airplane during instructor training. There were a lot of restrictions on weights, fuel distribution across all the tanks, etc. There isn't a stick-shaker, so you would go to the buffet, but prior to the actual stall. They stopped doing it years ago. Not because of any danger, but they felt the stress on the airframe wasn't worth it, and they could replicate it in the simulator.

We did the same thing. I think it's a mandated thing that all 121 pilots do upset recovery training now.
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Was it the buffet that caused the stress, or the recovery?
 
Red Air Rambo said:
You should call them out on it...relatively easy to prove most all are presented with a shadow box at their retirement.
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A shadowbox isn’t always proof of retirement. I didn’t have a retirement ceremony or get a shadowbox, but I certainly have the retirement certificates and the DD214.
 
tawood said:
Was it the buffet that caused the stress, or the recovery?
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IMMIC:
On my Mooney, if it’s AOA was 90° and traveling at 200 mph, the force would be equivalent to 13Gs, if 300 mph...29Gs.



Tom
 
Hacker said:
A shadowbox isn’t always proof of retirement. I didn’t have a retirement ceremony or get a shadowbox, but I certainly have the retirement certificates and the DD214.
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And in the great state of Texas, we can get "Veteran" put on our DLs and/or LTCs (with proof of service).
 
Thanks for your service everyone. Lying about military service is ridiculous and dis respectful to those who have and are serving. Call them out!
 
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