Cessna 414 down in Yorba Linda

Hacker said:
Plenty of people that expected me to have one and would have attended, but I had my own reasons for not wanting anything.
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Not you, but I know one chief that who had a retirement party thrown for him, but he wasn't invited to it.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Let’s break that into different cases:
1. Non IR rated pilot flies through a cloud. Unless you hit something, no chance.
2.Non IR files IFR plan or popup, and flies approaches. I gotta believe computers can catch the discrepancy, 80% channce of being caught.
3.IR pilot who is not current, files and fly approaches...like #1, no chance if you don’t have an accident.


Tom
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This is why when I file, I always use the tail number "N4302H" ;)

0% chance of me getting caught!
 
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MooneyDriver78 said:
Let’s break that into different cases:
1. Non IR rated pilot flies through a cloud. Unless you hit something, no chance.
2.Non IR files IFR plan or popup, and flies approaches. I gotta believe computers can catch the discrepancy, 80% channce of being caught.
3.IR pilot who is not current, files and fly approaches...like #1, no chance if you don’t have an accident.


Tom
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Actually, since I did #2 (albeit with an instructor, which ATC didn't know), and there were zero consequences, I doubt that anyone even checks it. We gave only the tail number, no names ...
 
Fallsrider said:
Not being a pilot, this brings up a question in my mind. Assuming there is no incident or accident resulting from a non-IR pilot flying into IMC, what is the likelihood you will get caught doing it? Is there any way that the FAA will ever know?
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MooneyDriver78 said:
Let’s break that into different cases:
1. Non IR rated pilot flies through a cloud. Unless you hit something, no chance.
2.Non IR files IFR plan or popup, and flies approaches. I gotta believe computers can catch the discrepancy, 80% channce of being caught.
3.IR pilot who is not current, files and fly approaches...like #1, no chance if you don’t have an accident.
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On #2, how would a popup lead to them getting caught? There's no pilot name on a popup clearance...

On #3, if one uses their own name and tail number, maybe they would get caught, but I've never heard of that data being used in that fashion.

But really, it's not the FAA you need to worry about.

MooneyDriver78 said:
If non tower, who is going to know?
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All of your friends and relatives, when you crash and die like this guy did.
 
When I asked for a popup one time, they ask for my name, phone number and whether I was current. Don’t know if it was because conditions were below minimums, I did 3 approaches and finally made it on 3rd try. I never got a call?


Tom
 
Hacker said:
From a technical standpoint, I don't believe that is "flutter" we're observing, rather just the spoiled air coming off the wing buffeting the horizontal stab. I can't speak to the amplitude of the movement, but a lot of GA airplanes have a substantial amount of movement of the horizontal stab when approaching a stall, as well.
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Good description. Personally I found the vertical stab and #2 engine bouncing around far more disconcerting :eek: To use the technical jargon, "It's supposed to do that.":cool:

Nauga,
who knows the stiff stuff gets broken
 
BrianNC said:
That video has been removed. Any other link to it?
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It’s still up on LiveLeak. I don’t have 5 posts so I can’t include the link but go there and search “Nest security camera captures plane crashing onto house in Yorba Linda”
 
Rod Boone said:
It’s still up on LiveLeak. I don’t have 5 posts so I can’t include the link but go there and search “Nest security camera captures plane crashing onto house in Yorba Linda”
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Thanks!

 

Check out the video clip at :47 secs. The plane looks like it's missing part of the horizontal stabilizer to me. There's a flaming object falling faster than the plane (to the left). Engine? Something else heavy and propelled by an explosion? Bomb?? My imagination is running amok.
 
dtuuri said:

Check out the video clip at :47 secs. The plane looks like it's missing part of the horizontal stabilizer to me. There's a flaming object falling faster than the plane (to the left). Engine? Something else heavy and propelled by an explosion? Bomb?? My imagination is running amok.
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If you yank too hard on the yoke while overspeeding, either the tail or the wings will fail. If the tail goes first, wings often follow.
 
dtuuri said:

Check out the video clip at :47 secs. The plane looks like it's missing part of the horizontal stabilizer to me. There's a flaming object falling faster than the plane (to the left). Engine? Something else heavy and propelled by an explosion? Bomb?? My imagination is running amok.
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I don't see any visual evidence of a bomb in the pieces of wreckage we have seen.
 
Hacker said:
I don't see any visual evidence of a bomb in the pieces of wreckage we have seen.
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Then what do you guess was burning as it fell? If it was wing parts it would flutter down. If it was an engine, would it burn like that? If it was a homemade bomb, who knows what it would look like, a partial explosion?
 
Kenny Phillips said:
If you yank too hard on the yoke while overspeeding, either the tail or the wings will fail. If the tail goes first, wings often follow.
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I know. This guy's been flying for close to 50 years, I doubt he "yanked too hard".
 
If I were a betting man....I'd bet the plane was outta annual and a lacking AD caused that.
 
Sometimes I wonder if general aviation attracts more than its fair share of these people —no shame, no sense...
 
dtuuri said:
I know. This guy's been flying for close to 50 years, I doubt he "yanked too hard".
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Judging by the sound in previously posted clips it's almost certain he was well past Vne before the plane started breaking up. One wing section and an engine & prop (probably from the same side) ended up some distance from the main wreckage; whether he "yanked too hard" or not, no doubt the airframe was overstressed.

If there was a loss of elevator or horizontal stabilizer in flight the telltale signature is all the upper wing skins are pushed in between the ribs from the sudden negative load.

The investigators will figure out what happened, even if there remains uncertainty after they are done as to why it happened.

Hacker said:
I don't see any visual evidence of a bomb in the pieces of wreckage we have seen.
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The fuselage looks remarkably intact for there to have been any explosive.
 
Piperonca said:
Sometimes I wonder if general aviation attracts more than its fair share of these people —no shame, no sense...
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You obviously don't have much contact with the general population...come see the people that I deal with if you want to see "no shame, no sense".

I think with the unforgiving nature of aviation, and the few like this that are pilots...Darwinism brings them to the forefront.
 
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This may or may not be relevant to this accident ...

Bill Thompson's book Cessna - Wings for The World II has a detailed description of the crash of the prototype Cessna 340 on its maiden flight in 1970:

"The flight was uneventful with gear retraction, flap extension, general handling characteristics, and approach to stalls being investigated at 10,000 feet. Don decided to investigate the top speed and applied full power in level flight. The chase plane [the C-414 prototype] was about 50 feet below and 100 feet in trail when the elevator trim tab on the C-340 began to cycle about 10 cps and then jammed 30 degrees up-tab (nose down trim). Don immediately reduced power to idle. This caused the chase plane to overtake the C-340. The chase plane rolled right to clear the C-340 and immediately rolled back left to resume the chase. The C-340 had already pitched down 30 degrees and continued to pitch down in an outside loop until reaching the 120 degree point below the horizon. Several pieces of metal started to come off the aircraft and it then pitched back to about 70 degrees nose down and rolled over inverted and started into a flat spiral. The aircraft impacted the ground still inverted. [...] Later investigation confirmed that the bolt connecting the elevator trim tab rod and trim actuator had become disconnected during the flight. The trim-tab cycled a few times and then jammed up-tab. This created about 300 pounds of forward force on the control wheel which Don could not overpower."​
 
dtuuri said:
I know. This guy's been flying for close to 50 years, I doubt he "yanked too hard".
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that video with the sound in it was very compelling that he was way past Vne and the plane was over stressed and came apart regardless of whether or not he yanked on the controls.. those engines were beyond screaming when you heard the bang of airframe failure

unless this guy's luck was so bad that he lost control in IMC, oversped the airplane, and had a bomb go off exactly when he was well past Vne then I think we can rule the bomb theory out
 
Sluggo63 said:
The plot thickens...
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This guy sounds like he's a real piece of work and fate (or whatever you want to call it) caught up with him

Bragging about hanging out with a real group of "thugs and greasers"?! Faking being a cop with an old lost badge.. a proven track record of unsafe flying..

Ugh.. innocent people had to die and the general public's opinion of flying had to be tarnished because of one idiot
 
tawood said:
You obviously don't have much contact with the general population...come see the people that I deal with if you want to see "no shame, no sense".
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Yes, and that's by choice. I could not do the job that you do. Hat's off to every LEO and first responder in our great land.
 
Tantalum said:
unless this guy's luck was so bad that he lost control in IMC, oversped the airplane, and had a bomb go off exactly when he was well past Vne then I think we can rule the bomb theory out
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I agree. It seems he took off and entered IMC, probably without a clearance as he had been disciplined for in the past. We do know he was not in comm with LA Departure (NTSB said so at press conf) and ended up losing control. Did he fly into an embedded cell or experience an AP failure or other mechanical? The why we will learn later but I wonder if he was IFR current or even had an ifr ticket. We’ll know soon.
 
dtuuri said:
Then what do you guess was burning as it fell? If it was wing parts it would flutter down. If it was an engine, would it burn like that? If it was a homemade bomb, who knows what it would look like, a partial explosion?
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A portion of the wing including fuel tank with the engine still attached might do that.
 
I can't imagine any pilot with even a rudimentary level of competence would hear those engines screaming like that and not pull back power. My guess is that this guy was incapacitated. I'm guessing the reason he allowed the expiration of his medical and the cause his incapacitation are related. Let's hope the NTSB can determine what happened here. The biggest tragedy here is that four innocent people minding their own business in their house were taken out by this accident.
 
Tantalum said:
This guy sounds like he's a real piece of work and fate (or whatever you want to call it) caught up with him

Bragging about hanging out with a real group of "thugs and greasers"?! Faking being a cop with an old lost badge.. a proven track record of unsafe flying..

Ugh.. innocent people had to die and the general public's opinion of flying had to be tarnished because of one idiot
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Don't forget his claim to have served in the Marine Corps.
Antonio-Pastini.jpg
 
Pilawt said:
This may or may not be relevant to this accident ...

Bill Thompson's book Cessna - Wings for The World II has a detailed description of the crash of the prototype Cessna 340 on its maiden flight in 1970:

"The flight was uneventful with gear retraction, flap extension, general handling characteristics, and approach to stalls being investigated at 10,000 feet. Don decided to investigate the top speed and applied full power in level flight. The chase plane [the C-414 prototype] was about 50 feet below and 100 feet in trail when the elevator trim tab on the C-340 began to cycle about 10 cps and then jammed 30 degrees up-tab (nose down trim). Don immediately reduced power to idle. This caused the chase plane to overtake the C-340. The chase plane rolled right to clear the C-340 and immediately rolled back left to resume the chase. The C-340 had already pitched down 30 degrees and continued to pitch down in an outside loop until reaching the 120 degree point below the horizon. Several pieces of metal started to come off the aircraft and it then pitched back to about 70 degrees nose down and rolled over inverted and started into a flat spiral. The aircraft impacted the ground still inverted. [...] Later investigation confirmed that the bolt connecting the elevator trim tab rod and trim actuator had become disconnected during the flight. The trim-tab cycled a few times and then jammed up-tab. This created about 300 pounds of forward force on the control wheel which Don could not overpower."​
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I assume Don bailed out?


Tom
 
The more I read the more angry I get. On so many levels....
 
PaulS said:
I can't imagine any pilot with even a rudimentary level of competence would hear those engines screaming like that and not pull back power. My guess is that this guy was incapacitated.
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Unless he had already lost control (flight control failure, structural failure, etc) and/or wasn't able to do so (incapacitated due to G forces, medical problem, or the throttle/prop cables no longer functioning, or any other number of possibilities).

Impossible to know based on the information we currently have in the public domain.
 
dtuuri said:
I know. This guy's been flying for close to 50 years, I doubt he "yanked too hard".
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Actually, under overspeed conditions, it may take very, very little control movement to "yank too hard". What would be considered normal movements may be too much.
 
Some photos of the remains reveal one of the propellers walked across the fuselage just aft of the cockpit. It's also visible in the post #212 video at :40.

I was surprised by the sound made when the plane broke up. That was a helluva bang.
 
I think the tear in the fuselage was made by a telephone pole. You can clearly see the imbedded pole in the NTSB photo.

The damage to the home must have been from a wing assembly/fuel tank. The fuselage clearly didn’t burn. An engine alone probably couldn’t have caused the raging inferno shown in some of the videos.

Very sad for those poor folks on the ground.
 
I guess -

The main fuselage has no wings, tail, radome.

One wing almost empty of fuel landed burning on a road and a man put it out with a garden hose.

The engine from that wing landed a couple of hundred yards away with its propeller, slightly (relatively) damaging a house. The engine is missing three cylinder heads on one side.

The other wing, engine and fuel tragically landed square on a house at high speed.

The tail and radome possibly landed elsewhere.
These images seem to show the tail and radome, seperately, on a flat bed trailer (grey colour), and a lack of heads.

I would be interested to know the function of the large cylindrical object (almost a foot across say) near the NTSB person's left hand in the image below. There is another one inside the house I believe. Looks like an alternator but it has a 2 inch diameter hose connection stub.

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Just guessing here...

He’s possibly a Marine Corps basic training washout and possibly a police academy washout. Someone with a power trip who wants to carry a weapon. Someone who changed his name to cover up his past, why that is we won’t know until his life has been dissected. And I’m quite sure it will be.

The follow-up to this ought to be interesting.

........

As an aside, I don’t really support asking/demanding that a person prove they have served in the military if they publicly claim they have in a public forum. It just seems ... weird. I served, my wife served (we met while serving on the same ship), our daughter just graduated basic training. But I’m not going to post my 214 here. That’s just stupid. For me, BFD if someone wants to be a poser. No friend of mine but I don’t give two squats to the wind what a person claims in an online forum. Grain of salt and all that.
 
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