Cessna 310 for low time pilot

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fizbanco

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Ross
Hi everybody,
Longtime lurker, but this is my first post. I'm a pretty low time pilot, 125 total with 15 complex and working on my instrument. My friend is a longtime pilot with multi rating.

We are looking at buying together a 310. It is one of the turbocharged Riley conversions. I have two questions in regard to this.

First, do you think there is any chance an insurer would cover me once I have my multi. I'd also assume I'll have my instrument by then an maybe 160 hours with 30 or so complex.

Second question, the plane does not include any logs. Do we need proof of ownership of the Riley conversion stc? Does a copy of the Filed 337 count? I appreciate in info. Thanks, Ross
 
Ross,

First off, if you're looking at a Twin Cessna you should join The Twin Cessna Flyer (www.twincessna.org). A great organization with a wealth of knowledge.

The 310 isn't a hard twin to fly. Plenty of people get their initial multi ratings in 310s. With the turbo Riley engines (I'm guessing you're talking about the Lycoming 350 HP turbo engine conversion?) it's got more power and more speed, but that doesn't make the plane harder to fly per se. I would find a place that has a normal 310 and do the multi in it.

You should be able to get insured in it with a multi-instrument rating. Get your instrument, go get your multi (preferably at a place with a 310 to rent - don't abuse your own plane to that training) and then start flying yours. The first year rates will be expensive. It will go down as you gain experience. I bought my Aztec with 225 hours total time, no multi rating, just single/instrument and about 80 complex.

Most importantly, get good training. Where are you located?

As to the log issues, if the plane has no logs, that may not be the best example. You'll need to research it thoroughly.

I fly a 310N and love it. They're great planes.
 
fizbanco said:
Hi everybody,
Longtime lurker, but this is my first post. I'm a pretty low time pilot, 125 total with 15 complex and working on my instrument. My friend is a longtime pilot with multi rating.

We are looking at buying together a 310. It is one of the turbocharged Riley conversions. I have two questions in regard to this.

First, do you think there is any chance an insurer would cover me once I have my multi. I'd also assume I'll have my instrument by then an maybe 160 hours with 30 or so complex.

Second question, the plane does not include any logs. Do we need proof of ownership of the Riley conversion stc? Does a copy of the Filed 337 count? I appreciate in info. Thanks, Ross
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The STC goes with the S/N of the airframe, no log books can be a very expensive proposition to get squared away. The 337s and STCs should be on file with the FAA, order the CD for that plane. I had a Riley converted Travelair for my first plane with 60hrsTT and no multi when I bought it. I was required 25hrs and to do my ME ride in the plane for the insurance and got covered for less than I could in a Bonanza. Your first year insurance will likely be high, but once you get 100hrs in the plane, it'll come way down. The 310 has a fair amount of HP, which means it can get ahead of you and take a good bit of leg strength on SE work until you get trimmed up, it also means that you have some real performance to pull you behind out of a bind.
 
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What Ted said, but I'll pile on about the logs. You need a mechanic familiar with a 310 to rebuild them. I don't know if money is a concern, but that probably won't be cheap. It will always make the plane less desirable (i.e. worth less, appeal to a smaller market) if you want to sell it. Is it a repo? If so find the previous owner and offer cash for them.
 
Ted,
Thanks for the very quick and informative post. I've always enjoyed your well thought posts on here over the last 2 years. I'm located in SW Virginia.

My friend also thought that while I could get time in "our" 310, that a schools would be better for the rougher training on the plane.

The main reason why we are looking at this one is the low price, we realize that alot of work will needed to be done to check over the plane to make new logs current. Have a mechanic that should be able to work with us to make it more reasonable. I just need to research what paperwork is required for the STC.

Once again appreciate your advice. Ross
 
First off ,welcome. My main concern would be insurance costs,and insurance check out requirements. Also the Riley conversion makes the 310 a great performer. Make sure you get a good checkout from a qualified instructor,so the airplane doesn't get ahead of you. Good luck
 
Not a repo, the previous owner died and the inheritor's lawyers is holding the logbooks to reduce liability. They won't even let us look at them. They also are selling the plane as parts/repair, so will require getting a new airworthiness certificate.

As you can tell, we still need to do a bit more research before jumping in. Ross
 
fizbanco said:
Not a repo, the previous owner died and the inheritor's lawyers is holding the logbooks to reduce liability. They won't even let us look at them. They also are selling the plane as parts/repair, so will require getting a new airworthiness certificate.

As you can tell, we still need to do a bit more research before jumping in. Ross
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Walk away from this deal, it's got too much going against it. You can buy a good one with all the log books, low time engines and a glass panel for less than it's going to cost to just get the paperwork squared on this one.
 
Henning said:
Walk away from this deal, it's got too much going against it. You can buy a good one with all the log books, low time engines and a glass panel for less than it's going to cost to just get the paperwork squared on this one.
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And tell 'em to get a new lawyer too. Probably more liability by holding the log books than disclosing known issues. If they want to sell it as parts only, they'll probably figure out that they need to pull the data plate.
 
Henning,

Thanks for your reply. My friend is more familiar with the type of planes than me, having owned a similar one in the past. I think the cheap price was what attracted us, as I really haven't seen anything similar under about $70k.

Any idea the amount of work/money needed to get it current? I assume it basically just involves going through every AD ever? We are willing to work with the mechanic to help lower costs, but just parts alone probably could be quite a bit.

I appreciate everybody's answers and experience. Ross
 
It's not an inexpensive 310. It's a very expensive one. Henning is correct, run for your life. I don't understand why your possible high time partner would even consider it. Too many nice aircraft out there to bother with a dog. Partnerships usually are only good for dancing and f$&@ing.
 
fizbanco said:
Henning,

Thanks for your reply. My friend is more familiar with the type of planes than me, having owned a similar one in the past. I think the cheap price was what attracted us, as I really haven't seen anything similar under about $70k.

Any idea the amount of work/money needed to get it current? I assume it basically just involves going through every AD ever? We are willing to work with the mechanic to help lower costs, but just parts alone probably could be quite a bit.

I appreciate everybody's answers and experience. Ross
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What model? I'd have to inspect it, but I'd be willing to wager you'll spend a minimum of $50k before you have it in annual again. You could buy mine for $75k. There is no such thing as a cheap 310, it's like the FRAM commercial, you can pay now or later.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
It's not an inexpensive 310. It's a very expensive one. Henning is correct, run for your life. I don't understand why your possible high time partner would even consider it. Too many nice aircraft out there to bother with a dog. Partnerships usually are only good for dancing and f$&@ing.
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+1000!
 
It's an I model. From looking at prior AD's, it is basically looking like a full disassemble of the engines is required, plus replacing quite a few unknown parts. And that's not even getting to the airframes. Guess we were thinking if it's only putting in $10-$20k it would be a good deal, but that probably isn't close to realistic. Thanks, Ross
 
fizbanco said:
It's an I model. From looking at prior AD's, it is basically looking like a full disassemble of the engines is required, plus replacing quite a few unknown parts. And that's not even getting to the airframes. Guess we were thinking if it's only putting in $10-$20k it would be a good deal, but that probably isn't close to realistic. Thanks, Ross
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Thoses engines are timed out and worth nothing more than the core value of an unknown timed engine. Start there and work your way back. Maybe someone has a record of the last overhaul…I dunno.
 
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Don't know squadoosh about the plane, but the atty should be sued by the estate heirs. He's costing them big bucks with his grandstanding BS with the logs. Turning a potential $100k(?) plane into a pile of parts.
 
docmirror said:
Don't know squadoosh about the plane, but the atty should be sued by the estate heirs. He's costing them big bucks with his grandstanding BS with the logs. Turning a potential $100k(?) plane into a pile of parts.
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Well, it depends on what the logs show whether the lawyer is doing the right thing or not. If they are not "up to snuff" and the plane gets sold as anything but scrap, then indeed, there may be some cause for his actions.
 
fizbanco said:
Not a repo, the previous owner died and the inheritor's lawyers is holding the logbooks to reduce liability. They won't even let us look at them. They also are selling the plane as parts/repair, so will require getting a new airworthiness certificate.

As you can tell, we still need to do a bit more research before jumping in. Ross
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The inheritor's lawyers sound like idiots, practicing in an area that they are not qualified. The only justification for that would be that the logbooks were so pencil-whipped that the aircraft has to be sold for parts. In which case, they shouldn't even be talking to you they should be calling a salvage yard and selling it for parts with the proviso that the plane not be sold as a whole, only as parts. If they are selling to someone who they know is going to fly it, then they still have the liability, if any, and destroyed the value.

Anything this funky, run from.

Make sure that you are not the partner who is being brought in to subsidize the high time pilot's flying. I have seen that more than once and the low-timer, but eager, always gets the short end of the financial stick, IMX.
 
Look, all I'm saying is the plane, minus the logs is worth some X amount less than the plane with the logs intact. If you have a diff opinion, then we will have to agree to disagree.

This is particularly important on a plane where there has been extensive aftermarket work done, and also a plane where the logs are so critical(310). If it were a 50YO Piper Pacer with no logs(I looked at that last month), then no big deal, provided it started life as a PA-20. A C-310 is a completely different animal, and I wouldn't touch it(like you said) without the logs. You can't have it both ways...
 
This plane without the logs is worth less than $0 because they are going to have to pay someone to dismantle and truck it away or continue to pay storage fees.
 
Henning said:
Well, it depends on what the logs show whether the lawyer is doing the right thing or not. If they are not "up to snuff" and the plane gets sold as anything but scrap, then indeed, there may be some cause for his actions.
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Why not just pull the data plate?

Lawyer sounds like an idiot to me.
 
Henning said:
This plane without the logs is worth less than $0 because they are going to have to pay someone to dismantle and truck it away or continue to pay storage fees.
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It's probably worth $10K to Wentworth.
 
bartmc said:
It's probably worth $10K to Wentworth.
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I doubt it, it depends on condition, plus you have to haul it to their yard. Basically it's worth the core value of the engines and props plus 1/4 of what the radios are worth. A 310 is 2 men 2.5 days to disassemble and load and probably $4.50 a mile or more to haul (I got $3 a mile over a decade ago with fuel around $1), plus expenses. Since the engines don't have logs, you have to find someone that wants to trade them in on new or factory remans, can't just do an overhaul.
 
Henning said:
I doubt it, it depends on condition, plus you have to haul it to their yard. Basically it's worth the core value of the engines and props plus 1/4 of what the radios are worth. A 310 is 2 men 2.5 days to disassemble and load and probably $4.50 a mile or more to haul (I got $3 a mile over a decade ago with fuel around $1), plus expenses. Since the engines don't have logs, you have to find someone that wants to trade them in on new or factory remans, can't just do an overhaul.
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How do they do on airboats?

Field overhaul experimental a possibility?
 
Henning said:
The 337s and STCs should be on file with the FAA, order the CD for that plane.
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The 337 may be on file with the FAA in Oklahoma City, but the STC is not. You will probably have to get another copy of the STC from the STC holder, and that may cost you some.
 
That airplane sounds like a hangar full of nothing but headaches to me. I'd save a bunch of time and money and buy Henning's airplane and I don't even know who Henning is.

Repeat after me... "There is no such thing as a cheap twin!"
 
fizbanco said:
Not a repo, the previous owner died and the inheritor's lawyers is holding the logbooks to reduce liability. They won't even let us look at them. They also are selling the plane as parts/repair, so will require getting a new airworthiness certificate.
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If they've destroyed the airworthiness certificate and reported the aircraft to the FAA to be stricken from the registry, forget about it - they'd just about have to give you the plane free to make the deal worth doing from your end.

BTW, the heir's attorneys are idiots, but that's not a fight you can win.
 
Ron Levy said:
The 337 may be on file with the FAA in Oklahoma City, but the STC is not. You will probably have to get another copy of the STC from the STC holder, and that may cost you some.
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Is Jack Riley still alive? If so he'd probably give you one, he is (was?) a good guy. If not, all bets are off.
 
Henning said:
Is Jack Riley still alive? If so he'd probably give you one, he is (was?) a good guy. If not, all bets are off.
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Riley STCs are held by a company out in SoCal. I don't know if Jack Riley is still around. If the STC holder wants to be nice, they would only charge $5000 for the new paperwork, if they have the history. If they want to be mean, you can add two zeros to that. :D
 
bartmc said:
How do they do on airboats?

Field overhaul experimental a possibility?
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Most airboat engines in that HP range I see are BB Chevy or such. How many Ex/ABs use a turbo 350hp Lycoming? Lancair IVP :dunno:
 
Henning said:
Is Jack Riley still alive? If so he'd probably give you one, he is (was?) a good guy. If not, all bets are off.
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Jack Riley died a couple of years ago. He was, indeed. a good guy. I met him several times and flew some of his airplanes. We had him modify our early C340 and I got the chance to fly his Lycoming turboprop powered C421 before it was certified. Ahhh, the memories. That being said, that runout, no logbook Riley 310 is going to be nothing but a royal pain in the a... Run, don't just walk, away from that one.
 
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Dead Stick said:
Jack Riley died a couple of years ago. He was, indeed. a good guy. I met him several times and flew some of his airplanes. We had him modify our early C340 and I got the chance to fly his Lycoming turboprop powered C421 before it was certified. Ahhh, the memories. That being said, that runout, no logbook Riley 310 is going to be nothing but a royal pain in the a... Run, don't just walk, away from that one.
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Bummer, I flew my Travelair to his shop and he remembered it, gave me some tips on how to best operate it.
 
Henning said:
Bummer, I flew my Travelair to his shop and he remembered it, gave me some tips on how to best operate it.
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When I flew our 340 to CRQ for the modification, he flew me back to SAN to catch an airline flight back home. The airtour included a low pass down Black's Beach. :rofl: His Lycoming powered 421 was a wild machine. IIRC, 850 hp per side and he wasn't afraid to use it. That sucker would climb about straight up. When they certified it they limited the HP to about 450 per side. That made it quite docile.
 
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I towed banners up and down Blacks beach for a few years. The only thing I ever saw down there were people who should put on clothes -- a lot more clothes.
 
docmirror said:
I towed banners up and down Blacks beach for a few years. The only thing I ever saw down there were people who should put on clothes -- a lot more clothes.
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Lol, yep, that's true of pretty much every nude beach around the world.:rofl:
 
Just to be curious, why can't an engine without logs be overhauled? I assume as long as all AD's are complied with it is an airworthy engine? Thanks.
 
fizbanco said:
Just to be curious, why can't an engine without logs be overhauled? I assume as long as all AD's are complied with it is an airworthy engine? Thanks.
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How do you know how much time is on it? On an overhaul, the time carries forward. There may be some way for Pt 91 service, I'm not sure.
 
fizbanco said:
Just to be curious, why can't an engine without logs be overhauled? I assume as long as all AD's are complied with it is an airworthy engine? Thanks.
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It CAN be overhauled; but in a normal overhaul you'd check, repair, or replace certain parts based on time, MX, and condition. You could even get away with a "top" overhaul if the engine is in really good condition. Without logs, the ONLY way to know what's going on inside the engine is to tear it down to the block- significantly more $ and PITA.
 
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