Cessna 310 for low time pilot

Panel sounds rough. Don't know where you are getting two o-hauls if you haven't seen the logs but whatev.
 
Ron Levy said:
To fly? Beats me. As a business investment? That's what salvage companies do.

They will not buy an aircraft with out all the records unless they are dealing with the insurance companies that have already de-registered the aircraft. it's a stolen parts thing they will not deal with.

Why not? The parts are still valuable, including the engines for core value.

No they are not, the parts companies must prove where the parts come from, the part 135 guys will not buy parts with out tracking, neither will most A&Ps

My guess is that there is at least $30K in revenue (maybe much more) recoverable from that aircraft as long as you put the time and effort into disassembling, transporting, marketing, and selling them. And that's exactly what the salvage companies do -- even with aircraft listed as destroyed and deregistered.

You guess wrong, 310 parts are dime a dozen the engine with out records are $2500 cores. you spend too much time to make any profit.

As you pointed out in an earlier thread, the parts may still be used as long as the installing mechanic confirms by inspection that they are genuine. The only parts which would be unusable would any limited life components, and my research suggests C-310's don't have any.
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Life limited or not with out tracking they are pretty much useless, and all become high time parts.

Would you buy the mags with out knowing time on them?
how about the cylinders?

Most of the savage companies are now at there high water mark on inventory. and Wentworth aren't bringing their builders home any more, they try to sell them where they are.
The typical price to a salvage company is what they believe the instrument panel, and radios will bring. and they will value in a 50% profit.
 
docmirror said:
Don't know where you are getting two o-hauls if you haven't seen the logs but whatev.
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Read the thread again -- the logs were intentionally destroyed by the sellers to avoid some imagined legal liability issue. The plane comes without any paperwork of any kind.
 
Tom-D said:
Life limited or not with out tracking they are pretty much useless, and all become high time parts.

Would you buy the mags with out knowing time on them?
how about the cylinders?

Most of the savage companies are now at there high water mark on inventory. and Wentworth aren't bringing their builders home any more, they try to sell them where they are.
The typical price to a salvage company is what they believe the instrument panel, and radios will bring. and they will value in a 50% profit.
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You post is not only contrary to reality, it's also contrary to other posts you've made about used parts. I'm out.
 
Ron Levy said:
...which is possible when the aircraft is reported as destroyed.
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I really really doubt you can get the Administrator to give you permission to remove the data tag for what this thread is about.
 
Ron Levy said:
Read the thread again -- the logs were intentionally destroyed by the sellers to avoid some imagined legal liability issue. The plane comes without any paperwork of any kind.
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All I read was the logs were being held by the sellers estate lawyer. Didn't see where they were destroyed. That would make a difference.
 
Ron Levy said:
You post is not only contrary to reality, it's also contrary to other posts you've made about used parts. I'm out.
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Reality in the salvage market isn't your strong suit.

The salvage companies will disassemble the aircraft and add the inventory to their shelves and sell them as removed.

the buyer must have them return to service IAW FAR 43. Any A&P should have a lot of questions about where they came from, who tested them and where the 8030 tag came be found. if none of the parts has paper the return to service is directly on the A&P/FBO-DOM. I for one won't do it. unless I have the proper test equipment to insure my owners safety.

Radios yeah probably. it's pretty obvious when the blue smoke gets out, instruments, auto pilots OH HELL NO.

Every one should read and understand AC20-62E

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 20-62E.pdf
 
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Tom-D said:
If they have done that, why buy the aircraft? I doubt the salvage companies would make an offer. That aircraft that has been de-registered is worth recycle scrap prices.
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All of the parts (non life limited), wings, ailerons, flaps, landing gear, tail feathers, etc all have part tags and still have value.

Tom-D said:
If they have completed that paper work, and removed the data tag you can't even export it.
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You can export it for it's parts.

Tom-D said:
Reality in the salvage market isn't your strong suit.
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pot_calls_kettle_black.jpg




Tom-D said:
the buyer must have them return to service IAW FAR 43. Any A&P should have a lot of questions about where they came from, who tested them and where the 8030 tag came be found. if none of the parts has paper the return to service is directly on the A&P/FBO-DOM. I for one won't do it. unless I have the proper test equipment to insure my owners safety.
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So if the airframe is disassembled, let's say someone needs a left aileron for a Cessna 310. The salvage yard pulls the part, writes up an 8130 tag that has the part number, the registration number/serial number of the airplane it was removed from and under "Time in service" the salvage yard writes "unknown".

Now the part has an 8130 tag. The installing A&P inspects it and installs using the MM and signs the logbook referencing the 8130 tag.

Please tell us why the above scenario is wrong? Apply this to any other airframe part (wings, landing gear, engine mounts, cowling, interior parts, etc, etc)


Tom-D said:
Radios yeah probably. it's pretty obvious when the blue smoke gets out, instruments, auto pilots OH HELL NO.
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Most reputable salvage yards send avionics out to a shop, have them bench checked, issued a 8130 and returned to be inventoried and sold.

Again, no aircraft records doesn't effect the sale of the components if they are not life limited.


Tom-D said:
Every one should read and understand AC20-62E

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 20-62E.pdf
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Perhaps you should have read it, since it contradicts most of what you've written. :rolleyes2:

Tom-D said:
OBTW, folks, look at the requirements of removing a data tag, it requires the administrators permission.
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That only applies if one is removing the data plate to replace it.

If it's being removed to deregister the aircraft, the owner only needs to remove it, send it in to the FSDO with a letter stating why it was removed. No prior permission is required.

Tom-D said:
Life limited or not with out tracking they are pretty much useless, and all become high time parts.
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What "tracking" is required for a gear door, cowling, stringer, etc?

Tom-D said:
Would you buy the mags with out knowing time on them?
how about the cylinders?
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Usually sold as cores only for overhaul or rebuild.

Tom-D said:
The typical price to a salvage company is what they believe the instrument panel, and radios will bring. and they will value in a 50% profit.
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Avionics, prop cores, engine cores plus any hard to find high dollar items.

Tom-D said:
They will not buy an aircraft with out all the records unless they are dealing with the insurance companies that have already de-registered the aircraft.
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Not true.


Tom-D said:
No they are not, the parts companies must prove where the parts come from, the part 135 guys will not buy parts with out tracking, neither will most A&Ps .
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All the salvage yard needs is the registration number and serial number of the aircraft. They don't need aircraft logs, simply write on the 8130 "total time unknown".
 
You are making a very wise decision by staying in the club. An old 310 that has not flown in at least 5 years with the panel taken apart is a money pit you could write a Hollywierd movie about! Even with logbooks, this thing would be a financial gamble at best, but with no logs, I'd say it's salvage at best. And I really don't think the salvage would be all that good on it, too many old 310's being parted out to make the parts valuable. They are worth something, but every airport has an old 310 or 2 in the grass behind the last row of hangars.:rolleyes:
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fizbanco said:
Hey everybody,

I just checked back in with this thread and am rather amazed at how may posts it has gotten. I wanted to check back in with my decision.

After reading here and enough other research on all of the various AD's and possible STC issues me and my possible partner decided against the plane. This isn't before the owner dropped their price down to $16k. We basically realized to make it flyable would detail two overhauled engines, plus any airframe work. I'm not really looking to put $50k+ into an airplane at this time, even if it will do 300mph.

As far as the airplane was, it had been sitting for at least 5 years, not exactly sure how long. The panel had been half taken apart, as it was in the middle of a replacement before the owner died. Nothing else really looked molested.

I'm in a club at this time, and think that is the best until I decide what I really want to own. Anyway, I've enjoyed all of the discussion and the relevant information.

Ross
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RotorAndWing said:
All of the parts (non life limited), wings, ailerons, flaps, landing gear, tail feathers, etc all have part tags and still have value.

Yep, about 60 cents per pound
You can export it for it's parts.
yep after you do the FAA required paper work. and time is money, show me the market that would make that a worth while effort

So if the airframe is disassembled,

But it is not, going to get it, disassemble it, transport it, you are talking 10-15k that aircraft is worthless as it is.

let's say someone needs a left aileron for a Cessna 310. The salvage yard pulls the part, writes up an 8130 tag that has the part number, the registration number/serial number of the airplane it was removed from and under "Time in service" the salvage yard writes "unknown".

I guess you don't deal in salvage parts, I do, and buy from several companies, and have never gotten a 8030 tag from any of them on as removed equipment.

Now the part has an 8130 tag. The installing A&P inspects it and installs using the MM and signs the logbook referencing the 8130 tag.

Please tell us why the above scenario is wrong?

because it simply doesn't happen on as removed parts, yes some salvage yards deal in rebuild/overhauled/and new parts, you will pay the price. Its idiotic to think Wentworth is going to rebuild an aileron for you.

Apply this to any other airframe part (wings, landing gear, engine mounts, cowling, interior parts, etc, etc)

nope very unrealistic to think salvage yards take the time to rebuild stuff when they have good as removed parts to sell at half of the cost of new.


Most reputable salvage yards send avionics out to a shop, have them bench checked, issued a 8130 and returned to be inventoried and sold.

again you show your not informed on this subject, I've been searching for a MX 11, and asked they say all radios are as removed.

Again, no aircraft records doesn't effect the sale of the components if they are not life limited.

Perhaps you should have read it, since it contradicts most of what you've written. :rolleyes2:

Maybe you should read the AC 20-62E pay attention to para (k) there is nothing there that contradicts what I've written.



All the salvage yard needs is the registration number and serial number of the aircraft. They don't need aircraft logs, simply write on the 8130 "total time unknown".
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and you would buy a mag with that noted? sure would effect the price to me. and the salvage companies know that.

To me that 310 isn't worth the phone call to find out where it is.
plus your post shows your lack of understanding of how real GA works. When you send a data tag to FSDO thy will be asking a bunch of questions on where that fuselage is and what will happen to it. you best be able to prove that this aircraft is destroyed or prove it will never be able to be flown again.
 
Tom-D said:
and you would buy a mag with that noted? sure would effect the price to me. and the salvage companies know that.

To me that 310 isn't worth the phone call to find out where it is.
plus your post shows your lack of understanding of how real GA works. When you send a data tag to FSDO thy will be asking a bunch of questions on where that fuselage is and what will happen to it. you best be able to prove that this aircraft is destroyed or prove it will never be able to be flown again.
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blablabla.gif
 
Tom-D said:
If that is your way of saying I don't know shi- about the subject you are right on.
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Tom,

Anyone that tries to read your inane diatribes can quickly ascertain that most of what you write are pure fabrications written to incite arguments that you continually entertain yourself with.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Tom,

Anyone that tries to read your inane diatribes can quickly ascertain that most of what you write are pure fabrications written to incite arguments that you continually entertain yourself with.
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just show us your projects and how much you buy from the salvage yards.
other wise we must think the anon expert has struck again.
 
Tom-D said:
just show us your projects and how much you buy from the salvage yards.
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Worked in a aircraft salvage yard from 1981 to about 1983 recovering aircraft, parting aircraft and doing repairs to parts for resale.

Projects:

Hughes 269 A and C model
Enstrom F28
Hughes 369A
Bell 206
Piper PA20/22
Piper L4/J3
Piper Aztec
Piper Apache
Piper PA 28 Cherokee
Luscombe 8A
Citabria 7ECA
Cessna 172
Cessna 337


I have dealt with various salvage yards over the past 30+ years before I moved to Asia.

Enough to know everything you've written here is
BS.gif
 
RotorAndWing said:
Worked in a aircraft salvage yard from 1981 to about 1983 recovering aircraft, parting aircraft and doing repairs to parts for resale.

Projects:

Hughes 269 A and C model
Enstrom F28
Hughes 369A
Bell 206
Piper PA20/22
Piper L4/J3
Piper Aztec
Piper Apache
Piper PA 28 Cherokee
Luscombe 8A
Citabria 7ECA
Cessna 172
Cessna 337


I have dealt with various salvage yards over the past 30+ years before I moved to Asia.
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talks cheap prove it

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd77/tomkatt2/blablabla.gif
 
Having looked at the prices of older but still nice 310s, I can't see any reason anyone would want to try to resurrect one that's not currently airworthy.
 
FormerHangie said:
Having looked at the prices of older but still nice 310s, I can't see any reason anyone would want to try to resurrect one that's not currently airworthy.
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The Riley kit is about a $150k STC. If you had a good airframe, you could pull the Riley components and the TIO-540-J2BDs, do an overhaul and install and have a fast, powerful 310 if you can get the STC for a reasonable price if you spend $10k or so on this plane.
 
Henning said:
The Riley kit is about a $150k STC. If you had a good airframe, you could pull the Riley components and the TIO-540-J2BDs, do an overhaul and install and have a fast, powerful 310 if you can get the STC for a reasonable price if you spend $10k or so on this plane.
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You are aware of how long these engines have sat unattended ? and the engine logs are not available?
 
Tom-D said:
You are aware of how long these engines have sat unattended ? and the engine logs are not available?
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Correct, the engines themselves I consider as cores, so you're looking at around $60k + $12k on the props, probably $80k by the time you finish the install, and since Jack is dead now, an unknown figure for the STC. So you'll save $50k or better and a lot of time on getting the mounts and other bits fabricated.
 
I think I just saw a trade-a-plane ad where those TIO-540-J2BD's were like $80K to rebuild.

Is that about right?
 
txflyer said:
I think I just saw a trade-a-plane ad where those TIO-540-J2BD's were like $80K to rebuild.

Is that about right?
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160k to get the engines right. add the props, and getting the airframe airworthy,

Like I've said before this 310 isn't worth the call to find it.

While I had my favorite salvage yard on the phone this morning I presented this scenario to them, they just laughed and said there are a lot of them out there and they never get involved.
 
fizbanco said:
Not a repo, the previous owner died and the inheritor's lawyers is holding the logbooks to reduce liability. They won't even let us look at them. They also are selling the plane as parts/repair, so will require getting a new airworthiness certificate.

As you can tell, we still need to do a bit more research before jumping in. Ross
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That makes no sense.
 
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