Cessna 205 Down near KCPT

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Dry Creek

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Dry Creek
Last Sunday a couple I am an acquaintance of, and their dog perished in an accident.
The couple owned the flight school I was attending earlier this year at KGDJ. That school closed down this summer, and a larger school opened a satellite office there. That is where I am currently training (In The Pattern).
Articles:
Local couple dies in Cleburne airplane crash | Breaking News | hcnews.com
UPDATED: Two killed in Sunday airplane crash in Cleburne | Local News | cleburnetimesreview.com
2 killed in small plane crash near Cleburne airport (fox4news.com)

There is an inconsistency that I noticed with each of the reports - they all state that the couple stopped at KCPT for fuel. The problem I see with that is the ADSB track doesn't corroborate that:
N8149Z Flight Tracking and History - FlightAware
If you drill down, it looks like they were on the RNAV approach to 33 and something happened before they made it to the field. Others have speculated the same thing, but wondered why they opted for a downwind approach based on the METAR. The METAR showed LIFR during that period. The other question was why they would divert to KCPT for fuel when their track actually was longer to KCPT, plus the fuel is a bit more expensive than at their destination. Another curious item was the speed shown in several instances. I saw 250 mph, which I believe could be in excess of VNE for a C-205. I really don't think that it achieved those speeds, but I do wonder if maybe they experienced some turbulence during those episodes of wildly fluctuating reported speeds.
Flightaware also shows that all of their last leg was flown as VFR, I am guessing that they did not have flight following either. You can see where they had to make at least one dogleg to avoid weather. I also noticed that the altitude chosen for a flight that long was pretty low - leading me to believe that maybe the conditions were IMC above their flight level.
The airplane involved in the accident apparently did not belong to them - it is registered to an attorney near Austin. I know that they owned a Grumman Cheetah, and it is what Will used when he instructed IFR at their flight school.
Both pilots were CFI, and I also believe both were CFI I too. Jeanette had been flying Part 135 for several months now, preferring that to being a flight instructor. It looks like Will had gone ATP after the flight school (Aviate at the Lake) closed. There were two relatively experienced and qualified pilots aboard that plane.
I am interested in seeing what the NTSB report finds on this one.
 
What was weather like enroute?? Have to look up some historical metars. Seems like some scud running going on which is crazy for a pair of CFI/I’s.
Don’t put much stock into reported speeds. Keep in mind that’s not indicated.
Wonder if just not familiar with avionics of plane if they were borrowing.
 
Flight aware track is pretty unreliable and shouldn't be used for accident analysis. Based on adsb it does look like the accident was on approach and not on departure. But that doesn't necessarily mean that's what happened. Sometimes you get too low for a station to pick you up and you're track on flight aware stops. Based on the flames in a crash photo it looks like they had plenty of fuel. If the incident was on departure you always wonder if it's a fueling issue. As far as being low, who knows how the airplane was equipped.

Having just lost an acquaintance myself to also rather mysterious circumstances, it makes flying less fun. I'm sorry for your loss and I hope we get some solid answers.
 
benyflyguy said:
What was weather like enroute?? Have to look up some historical metars. Seems like some scud running going on which is crazy for a pair of CFI/I’s.
Don’t put much stock into reported speeds. Keep in mind that’s not indicated.
Wonder if just not familiar with avionics of plane if they were borrowing.
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I stopped by the FBO today and chatted with the Saturday Morning Gossip Crew. They were borrowing he plane as theirs was in maintenance (their Grumman Cheetah). I had a chance to chew the fat since we were below minimums for the flight school and my CFI had called off today's lesson. Since Leido's showed us in LIFR, I couldn't even convince her that we needed to work on my 3 hours of instrument time. Probably for the best.
While ADSB may not the last word in determining aviation pathways, it is generally very reliable there at KCPT. I call it up when I want to critique my pattern work and look at how consistent my "boxes" are.
The plane did seem to be nicely equipped though - N8149Z | 1963 CESSNA 205 on Aircraft.com
It would *appear* to be IFR capable, but I'm not well versed in all of the requirements though. I do wonder if the weather radar was functional - it did seem a bit dated.
These people were not personal friends or anything like that - just two people I had met and chatted with. I did not interface with them while enrolled in their flight school.
 
Sorry for this loss.
If you're referring to the WX-10A as weather radar, it is not. It's a StormScope and only detects electrical activity associated with convective activity. It requires correct interpretation to be useful in avoiding storms.
 
ADSB data has to be corrected to be useful data. I’m working a nonfatal accident currently that only has ADSB data until we get back the avionics dump.

ADSB Baro Altitude is uncorrected pressure altitude so you have to correct it for both local pressure and temp. ADSB Geo Altitude is even harder as you have to play with funky geographic models.

ADSB ground speed has to be corrected with local winds aloft and temp to give you a estimate of True.
 
Lon Stratton said:
Sorry for this loss.
If you're referring to the WX-10A as weather radar, it is not. It's a StormScope and only detects electrical activity associated with convective activity. It requires correct interpretation to be useful in avoiding storms.
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Ah, I did not know that. I learn something new here every day!
I don't know if it was even functional.
 
texasclouds said:
RIP

were they still operating the school?
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No, they closed the school late spring. I think that they were having a very difficult time recruiting new CFIs. Most of us constantly booked their star, and he headed off for the regionals once he hit his magic 1,500. None of us remaining students adjusted well to the solitary CFI left. Will seldom took on newer students, preferring to instruct instrument and focusing on running the enterprise.
After Aviate at the Lake closed, a larger school from up in Denton - In The Pattern - opened a satellite office in Granbury. That is where I am training now.
 
ARFlyer said:
ADSB data has to be corrected to be useful data. I’m working a nonfatal accident currently that only has ADSB data until we get back the avionics dump.

ADSB Baro Altitude is uncorrected pressure altitude so you have to correct it for both local pressure and temp. ADSB Geo Altitude is even harder as you have to play with funky geographic models.

ADSB ground speed has to be corrected with local winds aloft and temp to give you a estimate of True.
Click to expand...

Did any of the track I linked to look like it could useful information? I am still getting conflicting information where folks are insisting that they did make the field and fuel up. That track seems to show something entirely different to me.
Usually at CPT there is great coverage, and you can go back and review your pattern once you are done with your lesson.

I don't think there will be an avionics dump in this instance. Not much left after the fire.
 
FAA says it was departing. "AIRCRAFT JUST AFTER DEPARTURE CRASHED ONE MILE SOUTH OF CLEBURNE AIRPORT DUE UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES,EXPLOSION AND FIRE "

The flight was nearly 4 hours long. Burning around 15.5 gph. If it had standard tanks they had 63 gallons usable. I would not expect that kind of post impact fire with that amount of fuel it they were landing. Every source I've seen say it was after takeoff. Adsb is the only think that doesn't really jive with that...but there's also a 15 minute gap in adsb earlier in the flight.
 
Scott Purdue with special guest star Dan Gryder shared some information:

C205 Crash on Takeoff- Night into the Clouds - YouTube

So, with video showing that they most likely did refuel I guess that the ADSB track turned out to be a distraction.
But still to take off with 1/4 mile visibility and 200' ceiling, at night? I can't see how that would even be an option.
 
Given the fluctuations of the ground speed at the beginning of the flight seems to match those at the end of the flight, just assuming an error in the reporting there.

Would need to see weather metars, TAFs and ATIS along the route for more opinion.

Sorry for your loss.
 
Racerx said:
FAA says it was departing. "AIRCRAFT JUST AFTER DEPARTURE CRASHED ONE MILE SOUTH OF CLEBURNE AIRPORT DUE UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES,EXPLOSION AND FIRE "
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About 40 seconds of flight time.

Don't overestimate your skills. The penalty is severe.
 
3393RP said:
About 40 seconds of flight time.

Don't overestimate your skills. The penalty is severe.
Click to expand...

Ya but what happen is the question. Without a background it’s difficult to understand what skills are being overestimated. Takeoff into IMC without icing, I don’t see the issue for experienced pilots.
 
mandm said:
Ya but what happen is the question. Without a background it’s difficult to understand what skills are being overestimated. Takeoff into IMC without icing, I don’t see the issue for experienced pilots.
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That and assuming they had just landed in similar conditions, it seems odd. I don’t think I met her husband but Jeanette was a good Cub instructor when I was getting recurrent. It always hits closer to home when you have a signature in your logbook.
 
Dan Gryder covers it in his latest video:
. At the beginning and at the end around 28min. Will and Jeanette were both friends of mine. I did some ground school with Will and a couple of training flights with Jeanette. They were both meticulous especially with their safety/emergency procedures, this will forever be a mystery for me as to how this could happen.
 
Flying Banana said:
Dan Gryder covers it in his latest video:
. At the beginning and at the end around 28min. Will and Jeanette were both friends of mine. I did some ground school with Will and a couple of training flights with Jeanette. They were both meticulous especially with their safety/emergency procedures, this will forever be a mystery for me as to how this could happen.
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Save us a click, will you, and let us know what unfounded conclusion DG jumped to?
 
Lindberg said:
Save us a click, will you, and let us know what unfounded conclusion DG jumped to?
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I enjoy listening to DG but 43min dang, even on double time that’s 22min but I’d prob have to play it at 1.5 or 1.75.
 
mandm said:
Ya but what happen is the question. Without a background it’s difficult to understand what skills are being overestimated. Takeoff into IMC without icing, I don’t see the issue for experienced pilots.
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Were they operating with an IFR clearance? If not, they might have intended to stay below the overcast, inadvertently went into it, and succumbed to spatial d trying to get out of it. How much ground lighting was in that area? Night vmc below an overcast with few lights on the ground are recipe for spatial d.
 
Witmo said:
Were they operating with an IFR clearance? If not, they might have intended to stay below the overcast, inadvertently went into it, and succumbed to spatial d trying to get out of it. How much ground lighting was in that area? Night vmc below an overcast with few lights on the ground are recipe for spatial d.
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That’s what it sounds like, and it’s scary because I can recall times when I was in that situation. Albeit I’m not taking off or considering flying in 200’ overcast, I’d want at least 1000’ closer to 2000’ and only if improving conditions were reported nearby.
 
Lindberg said:
Could be. Seems overly simplistic though for two capable and current instrument pilots in an IFR capable aircraft.
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Stuff like this makes me shake my head and wonder what Chance does a lower time IFR guy like me have???
For starters I don’t do night time IMC, don’t launch in weather lower then 500OVC. Don’t attempt to scud run.

sounds possible the attempt to stay under weather, not committing to planning on IMC can be a fatal move even for the IFR rated and current.
 
I think there's a big difference on actually being on an IFR plan verse being VFR but IMC.. it's a whole different mind game when you're actively talking with their traffic control and flying on an established route

I'm not saying that's the cause here but I wouldn't necessarily assume an IR person is just as safe being IMC/VFR versus IMC/IFR
 
This.

Somatogravic illusion is the tendency – in the absence of visual references – to incorrectly perceive acceleration as an increase in pitch attitude, a perception that can lead pilots instinctively to make nose-down inputs even if the aircraft is flying level.
 
The owner of this plane is based in Austin. He's on FB, but wasn't responding and people knew it was his plane. I didn't know this couple, but a lot of my friends did and it was terrible watching them struggle as the facts started coming out. It was speculated that it was the guy from Austin. Then the PD released her name and it was thought to be the guy from Austin and her. Then the family announced it was actually the husband & wife.
 
Don't intend to argue semantics but if someone inadvertently enters a very low overcast and ends up 15 degrees low screaming into the earth, how can you argue that spatial d was not a factor. DG keeps repeating these were two experienced pilots who simply had encountered inadvertent IMC and implies they simply decided to dive out of overcast in full control and cognizent of their altitude and attitude? They intended to put the nose down 15 degrees to reestablish visual contact with the earth? Ridiculous! Their bodies were telling them their nose was at least 15 degrees high and the pilot didn't confirm it with the instruments before he lowered the nose. It was over very quickly due to the low altitude.l I call it spatially disoriented when the airplane is in an attitude other than what I think it is.
 
Scott Purdue of FlyWire says there is a preliminary report out now. I am trying to find it to peruse it myself.
FlyWire says that they had actually filed an IFR plan (KCPT-KGDJ) and were instructed to make a left turn to 090 after departure. Once given clearance they departed and made a right turn, descending - and had no contact with Ft. Worth ARTCC.
I think there was severe induced schedule pressure to get to KGDJ that night. One of them had to be at KFTW early on Monday for a FO assignment as a Part 135 flight - 0800 wheels-up. That may have led to some very poor ADM at the time.
 
Dry Creek said:
Scott Purdue of FlyWire says there is a preliminary report out now. I am trying to find it to peruse it myself.
Click to expand...
I don't know if the link will persist but it was here at the time of this post.

Nauga,
and Carol
 
So they were planning IFR. So expected to see IMC. Not scud running so inadvertent IMC shouldn’t be an issue. Fueling is odd. Was a long day of flying.
Anybody note use of ‘crew’ in the report for a single pilot plane?? Both were pilots, have to look at some other reports to see if they used that before for single pilot ops.
 
Lowflynjack said:
Their first post is a link to a DG video and their user name is Flying Banana... I think it's DG!
Click to expand...
As expected, DG is proven wrong and his video is gone. And very astute of you about the poster; that was his first, and last, post.
 
Lindberg said:
As expected, DG is proven wrong and his video is gone. And very astute of you about the poster; that was his first, and last, post.
Click to expand...

I finally watched one of DG’s videos just to see what my impressions were after all the talk about him on here.

I tried to keep an open mind and quickly found that most on here are actually nicer than I would be. Strikes me as a complete buffoon who also happens to be arrogant…dangerous combination.
 
Conditions at Accident Site: IMC Condition of Light: Night
Observation Facility, Elevation: KCPT,854 ft msl Observation Time: 02:55 Local
Distance from Accident Site: 2 Nautical Miles Temperature/Dew Point: 10°C /10°C
Lowest Cloud Condition: Wind Speed/Gusts, Direction: 7 knots / , 160°
Lowest Ceiling: Overcast / 300 ft AGL Visibility: 0.5 miles​

The rule “night, clouds, mountains, pick one” would have been a life saver.
 
Dry Creek said:
DG retracted his previous statement and apologized about his hasty guess as to the cause:

(1) Fatal GA Plane Crash. Your Stairway To Heaven. - YouTube

Scroll to 31.02 for retraction.
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I didn't watch the original, so I've no need to hear his retraction. But I'm glad to hear that he gets around to it a full half an hour into his new video. Maybe someday he'll just stop going off half-cocked. Although maybe not since I guess it effectively doubles his views.
 
The final report is now out.
It has been presented by Scott Purdue here:
And this link takes you to the downloadable PDF: Link

Scott does a good job discussing the delicate topic of medications that would otherwise disqualify a person from holding a First Class Medical and ATP rating.
 
Photo shows a auto pilot? Was it operational?
Shades of JFK accident.
 
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