Central Texas Pilots - Eat Your Hearts Out

[MD11Pilot]

"Hey Dan, why don't you own a plane?"

No place to hangar it without doing a cross country to get to it!

Put your name on a waiting list. Can't, Taylor, Executive, Burnet, Temple have closed their lists.

My son and his wife are in the final stages of purchasing their first plane, a 1970 182N but they live in Ohio and he just called and said a single T hangar with electricity are $170/month and they are advertising extra spaces. 4I3 Knox Cty Airport

Oh well, not moving to Ohio

 

[hindsight2020]

Indeed. Availability of hangars in the I-35 corridor of Texas is a real hindrance to GA ownership. Add to that the low hull value of most of these airplanes and it becomes a very discouraging proposition. I wouldn't pay 500/mo for a hangar for a 40K clap trap like my Arrow, as a matter of principle. But yes, tie down just destroys the plastic with the heat cycles and weather out here. Oh well what are ya gonna do. A buddy of mine was able to secure hangar in KBAZ at a very affordable rate, but his father had an in as he too hangars there. It's a big f--- club, and you ain't in it.

Ultimately, I wouldn't own an airplane if I had to drive 30+ minutes to get to it. I would accept a tie down construct and at least get access to flying while incurring the extra maintenance cost of the thing weathering outside. I don't subscribe to the notion of a hangar being a prequisite to flying. I can see that being true for the "pigeons" within our demographic; i.e. those for whom the act of loitering on airport property in their retired years has social and personal value. For the turn key pilot that motivation doesn't hold as true, even after accounting for the desire for the airplane not to get weathered.

Still, it goes back to the chicken or the egg discussion. Really more like a tightening spiral. Why is there a shortage of hangars in an environment of aggregate decrease activity. We know it's really a metro density concentration problem. All the well to do crowd up in one spot and it causes a shortage. No different than housing in the high COLA metros of SF and NYC. Maybe suburban airports could be the new thing, alas suburban housing development is antithetical to the idea of nearby airports.

When we move back to civilization in hopefully a couple years, I'll probably just park the thing outside close to home if I can't find sub 250 hangar. I guess there are benefits to owning a cosmetically unsightly sub 50K airplane after all.

 

[AggieMike88]

If close enough, check out Cameron, TX.

When the DFW gang went there for food, there was a flyer for a large hangar with bifold door for $300 a month. And a few smaller T's were available too.

 

[BigBadLou]

Yes, this is a big public secret, Nuevo Kalyfornya sucks. Can we do anything about it? Sure thing! We can move to a better place. *shrug*

Yes, hangars are non-existent close to the city and still pricey 2 hours away. But why should I drive the wife 2 hours to fly her an hour to the beach?

 

[TCABM]

"Hey Dan, why don't you own a plane?"

No place to hangar it without doing a cross country to get to it!

Put your name on a waiting list. Can't, Taylor, Executive, Burnet, Temple have closed their lists.

.
I'm sure you've checked GTU and if you're willing to go as far as TPL, then Skylark Field (ILE) is an option to check out as well as LZZ. LZZ has an open waiting list right now. Not too sure about Lago Vista, and depending on where you're at in around Rock, Cameron should be about the same drive as to TPL.

 

[MD11Pilot]

Cameron is about 90 minutes.

An Arrow is not a clap trap airplane and I am sure you protect it as well as you can but I just can't stand to see one roasting...especially if I paid for it.

Doing the airport socially is how I started. I learned a lot of what to do and not do then. As I am approaching the end of my professional career I enjoy my buddies out there. Ask any retired pro and they will say they miss the flying some, the company zero and their buddies a lot.

 

[TCABM]

Doing the airport socially is how I started... Ask any retired pro and they will say they miss the flying some, the company zero and their buddies a lot.

Me, too at GTU in 90-91. I retire from the Air Force this summer. If we stay here in CO, there's a great field five minutes from here with an active community that I will most likely buy into a partnership at.

If my wife gets her dream job, we will be off to San Antonio and there's a real dearth of fields there. Ugh.

 

[denverpilot]

Me, too at GTU in 90-91. I retire from the Air Force this summer. If we stay here in CO, there's a great field five minutes from here with an active community that I will most likely buy into a partnership at.

Meadowlake? Nice place.

 

[mo825641]

I have a t- hanger on a grass runway just north of Victoria.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MD11Pilot]

I just find it puzzling to have airports within the Austin Metro area that have long lists of people wanting hangars and yet the airports/cities will not allow more to be built. When I look at most airports that have the hangars full and yet the majority of the aircraft rarely fly, the airport/city is collecting rent without an increase in real traffic. Seems to be easy money to me. And yes, I have approached Taylor and Austin Executive officials about this only to be turned away. GTU is slowly being strangled by housing and will be the Santa Monica in the future. Just another nail in the coffin of GA. I fly all over the world and GA is so restricted in most places that it is almost effectively non-existent. I hope it is not coming here. I remarked to my wife last year as we flew to OSH, that we got into our friends plane, flew from the area to the Tulsa area and then on to Wisconsin and in effect didn't have to get permission, went where and when we wanted and had a safety net of flight following ...where else can we do this?

 

[Lowflynjack]

And yes, I have approached Taylor and Austin Executive officials about this only to be turned away.

What do you mean you've approached them? Are you wanting to build hangars or just rent one? Taylor has a list of 70+ people, but you could get a ground-lease and build hangars. The city is building 12 new hangars, but that is all TXDot would fund. They have the costs posted, it's something like $66K for the City, $666K for the State... I think. I know they said one person asked about buying land from the farmer on the NE corner of the field and building T-Hangars with through-the-fence operations and the City attorneys said no chance.

 

[BigBadLou]

Yes, GTU is slowly turning things around, they are visiting hangars and kicking out renters who treat theirs as a cheap storage unit or boat garage. A few people I know have gotten a hangar at GTU recently due to this cleanse.
San Marcos wants to build more T-hangars but frankly who's gonna drive 2 hours across town to fly an hour to their destination?
And Executive is plain refusing to build more hangars and hail-sheds because they like to milk the high-demand customers. You won't find any cheap airplanes in those hangars, they are all full of Bos, Cirri and Barons.

 

[Lowflynjack]

San Marcos is usually full and if you live in South Austin, it would be a great fit. I think they should build more. Maybe some of the guys at GTU and T74 would have a better fit there and would free up some room here.

I'm 7 minutes from T74, so I'm lucky to be hangared there. I love flying though, and if I had no other options, yes, I would drive 2 hours to fly. I'm not flying to get to a meeting, I'm flying because I love it.

Austin Executive is a privately owned airport.
Supply and demand... he's charging more for hangars than anyone else, but they're full.
I think he'll eventually build more hangars. Nobody has done more than he has in the last 2 decades for Austin area aviation. He took Bird's Nest, which had a handful of planes flying and was quickly decaying and turned it into a beautiful airport. Central Texas hasn't seen anything even close since the original Austin Executive was sold and turned into a shopping center.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Buy an older plane and tie it down. That does work.

 

[BigBadLou]

Central Texas hasn't seen anything even close since the original Austin Executive was sold and turned into a shopping center.

Didn't know the original exec airport by I-35 (oh so convenient!!) was privately owned and sold for profit. That sure sucks. Dell bought part of the property to store semi trailers there. If Michael Dell was any smart, he would have bought the airport and kept it up so that he can fly in-and-out of there as he pleases since it was 1/4 mile from his new factory. Maybe the timing wasn't right.

 

[TCABM]

Meadowlake? Nice place.

Yep. I'm just northwest of the church for the base-to-final turn.

I'm glad that GTU is turning things around. I remember when Tim's Airpark was off I-35 and Parmer back in the '80s. That eventually changed names to Austin Executive, I think, about the time there were Metros flying part 135 out of there. Went past it everyday going to school in Pflugerville.

Don't know if it's still there, but there used to be an avionics repair place over by Spring Hill Catfish Parlor, too.

 

[oilburner]

Did a lot of flying out of Tim's Airpark about 40 years ago. Nice airfield.
Remember having to pay attention to all the RF-4 Phantoms on the long approach to Bergstrom AFB to the south.

 

[JimNtexas]

I just find it puzzling to have airports within the Austin Metro area that have long lists of people wanting hangars and yet the airports/cities will not allow more to be built. When I look at most airports that have the hangars full and yet the majority of the aircraft rarely fly, the airport/city is collecting rent without an increase in real traffic. Seems to be easy money to me. And yes, I have approached Taylor and Austin Executive officials about this only to be turned away. GTU is slowly being strangled by housing and will be the Santa Monica in the future. ....

The old KAUS had 250 GA hangers. When that closed the replacement KAUS got 55. If you tie down at Signature (with about 2 or 3 other planes on their huge ramp) I think you might get a hanger in the fullness of time, I know they come open occasionally.

When did GTU get the tower, it hasn't been that long has it? That's 20 years of operation. I know that GTU is looking a new fuel system, that would probably use FAA funds, giving it another 20 years.

 

[MD11Pilot]

What do you mean you've approached them? Are you wanting to build hangars or just rent one? Taylor has a list of 70+ people, but you could get a ground-lease and build hangars. The city is building 12 new hangars, but that is all TXDot would fund. They have the costs posted, it's something like $66K for the City, $666K for the State... I think. I know they said one person asked about buying land from the farmer on the NE corner of the field and building T-Hangars with through-the-fence operations and the City attorneys said no chance.

I asked the airport manager and asked one of the city council guys I met at Muellers BBQ and received the same answer. Not interested in opening new hangars in any form.

I have a friend at T74 and he offered to sell half his plane to me and we went to the airport to have me added to the hangar lease and was told "No Way!" So I would own a plane but if my friend sold me the other half I would be kicked out.

I guess the law of supply and demand doesn't apply.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I asked the airport manager and asked one of the city council guys I met at Muellers BBQ and received the same answer. Not interested in opening new hangars in any form.

I'm friends with the airport manager and I don't think that's the case anymore... not sure when you spoke to him, but I've never heard him say they weren't interested in opening any new hangars. I was sitting in there a few weeks ago when he told someone they have ground leases available. If you're serious, you should try again. I know there are around 70 people on the list right now and they've stopped adding people.

 

[MD11Pilot]

Thanks. I will head out there again and inquire.

 

[Lowflynjack]

Thanks. I will head out there again and inquire.

Walk in the back of the terminal and you'll see an airport master plan in the window. There's plenty of room and plans to build hangars down on the North end.

 

[drotto]

When we move back to civilization in hopefully a couple years, I'll probably just park the thing outside close to home if I can't find sub 250 hangar. I guess there are benefits to owning a cosmetically unsightly sub 50K airplane after all.

In the NYC area there are some airports that are getting near 250 just for tie downs. Hangers are typically $500 or more per month throughout most of NJ.

 

[hindsight2020]

In the NYC area there are some airports that are getting near 250 just for tie downs. Hangers are typically $500 or more per month throughout most of NJ.

Nobody's been able to articulate for me the appeal of living in New England. In spite of the high education expenditure, your children end up going to college in the same "flyover country" colleges as the children of flyover country parents; they end up moving to proverbial Texas for jobs, low COL and to afford having kids, just like the "flyover" natives. I just don't get it. The only alibi I've gotten is that of having family in the area or being economically unable to afford a relocation. I understand that it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round, but to me that sounds like a soul crush.

To be fair, I hear hangars in the Left Coast and in S Florida are equally out of control. It is now clear to me that owning an airplane does carry a degree of "lifestyle choice" with it. Domicile selection in order to afford it seems to be part of that equation.

 

[BigBadLou]

In the NYC area there are some airports that are getting near 250 just for tie downs. Hangers are typically $500 or more per month throughout most of NJ.

Do they hang the airplane by wings and nose? How many do they stack up like that? 2? 3?
How expensive are the hangars in comparison?

 

[drotto]

Do they hang the airplane by wings and nose? How many do they stack up like that? 2? 3?
How expensive are the hangars in comparison?

I am not sure of the current price at BLM but several years ago the "old" hangers started at $395. Old meaning there were no walls between the different parking spots. In the newer hangers which you get you own individual space they start at like 495 per month if you can even get one.

For more ridiculous at Caldwell airport (KCDW), current prices...

Hard surface tie downs $265
Standard T Hanger $690
Deluxe T Hanger $953

 

[MD11Pilot]

Met with the airport manager at T74 today and he said that there are no plans to lease lots for building of your own hangar. He said they are just trying to get monies to start something...hopefully next year but the city would control all of them. I also asked to be put on the list no matter how long it takes but I promised that if I changed my mind to call and remove myself. I am number 69 and about three months ago he said they had an opening and the guy had been on the list since 2011.

 

[yetti]

Brenham where people fly to from Austin just built new hangers last year. I was over at Lee County Giddings and they have some pretty new looking hangers. If you hangered there it would be a pretty short hop to Brenham and you could save alot on av gas

 

[Lowflynjack]

Met with the airport manager at T74 today and he said that there are no plans to lease lots for building of your own hangar. He said they are just trying to get monies to start something...hopefully next year but the city would control all of them. I also asked to be put on the list no matter how long it takes but I promised that if I changed my mind to call and remove myself. I am number 69 and about three months ago he said they had an opening and the guy had been on the list since 2011.

This is very frustrating because that's not what he told me. I'll pick his brain the next time I see him. Sorry if I mislead you!

He's exaggerating on the list. Yes there are 70 people on it, but I would say over half don't really want hangars. My friend was the one who just got a hangar and was on the list since 2011, but if you search you'll see another post where I complained about their policies. The reason it was taking people so long was because they were allowing people who tied down to move to the top of the list. Their written policy clearly states that if you tie down, you don't lose your spot on the hangar list... it says nothing about moving to the top. We had many heated arguments about it. My friend was #7 on the list, and suddenly he got a hangar. We've got approval from TXDot to build 12 new hangars and I think that will move you further up the list than you think.

 

[Lowflynjack]

Met with the airport manager at T74 today and he said that there are no plans to lease lots for building of your own hangar. He said they are just trying to get monies to start something...hopefully next year but the city would control all of them.

I met with David yesterday and he doesn't remember the conversation the way you do! He did add you to the list but doesn't remember anything about you wanting to build your own hangars. They would lease the land, but it would take some work to come to an agreement with the City. They would have some say in the type of hangars, the maintenance, etc. I have nothing to gain from this, but if you're serious about building some hangars, it could sure help the local pilots. We will have a newly paved runway, taxiway, and hopefully a new terminal in the next 2 years.

 

[MD11Pilot]

Jack,
That makes me very curious. I explicitly said lease the land to build A hangar. He must have thought I was considering building multiple hangars which I am not.

Addendum....When David and I spoke the other day we also disussed me becoming a partner in a plane and being added to the lease and he said "No Problem". The owner asked him the same thing and he said "No way".

Communications????????

 

[flyingron]

I thought Northern Virginia was bad where the lists never move and when you can get them you're looking at $400-$500. Culpeper on the other hand abolished subletting and now the waiting list is manageable even when they raised the hangars to $238 from the $220 I was paying. They're building three new banks of hangars and if those rent they have room for more. Two good shops on the field. About the only thing we don't have is 24 hour fuel but they're discussing that (the FBO building/bathrooms is now accessible 24 hours).

 

[Lowflynjack]

Addendum....When David and I spoke the other day we also disussed me becoming a partner in a plane and being added to the lease and he said "No Problem". The owner asked him the same thing and he said "No way". Communications????????

Basically what he told me is you can't become a partner in someones plane, be added to the lease, then have the original person sell you their part of the plane. This would make you the sole owner, and if they allowed this, friends could use this to get their friends into a hangar. I want out of my hangar and you want it, but you're way down on the list. I sell half of my plane to you, then you buy the other half. Now you have the hangar and sell my plane back to me and get a new one... from what I understand your friend asked the question more along these lines.

 

[MD11Pilot]

And Jack, what is wrong with that? Are they saying that they control who buys and sells and in what proportion? Things, circumstances,finances change. Would it be right to buy half an airplane and then be kicked out of the hangar when the second partner buys the first guys half? That would limit the sales and in this case did.

In my case, we were going to buy another aircraft and sell the first one. The hangar leasee would still have an airplane but the shareholder would be kicked out if something happened to the first half owner and the only signature on the lease. Would that be right? Or does the lease specify that the aircraft owned at the original lease is the only one that can be there?

Sorry but that reasoning is wrong on so many levels.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I'm not the one arguing with you. I do agree with the airport on this one though. I rent my hangar. If I decide I don't want it anymore, I don't get to decide who gets it, the next person on the list does. By manipulating the rules, I could give you my hangar. Sell you half of my plane and get you on the lease. Sell you the other half, then I'm gone. You don't really want my plane, but now you have the hangar. I get buy my plane back and you have bypassed 70 people on the list. They're only trying to keep it fair.

Again, not my fight. I was only trying to help if you wanted to build a hangar or t-hangars. It seemed there was a communication breakdown and I pointed that out.

 

[MD11Pilot]

Agreed that there is a communication problem. Different story everytime when talking to the city. I fail to see the problem with someone owning half a plane and being put on the lease.
As it stands now, I see the city controlling the ownership of the aircraft.

I will stop by and say hi sometime.