Carrying extra gas tank inside cabin

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Matthew Rogers

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Matt R
Mandatory FAA fine print - Neither I nor any other POA member is potentially advocating for or against any of these situations. Everything discussed is hypothetical, unless explicitly allowed in the FAR.

Can anyone let me know if there is a regulation for carrying extra gas tanks inside the cabin. This is for a regular 5 gallon red gas can, not a special ferry tank setup.

I know that backcountry guys sometimes bring collapsing tanks in the back to get Auto gas at their destination. Is there a regulation allowing or prohibiting a full can of gas in the cabin if you are going somewhere that has no fuel and your tanks are not large enough for the round trip? Obviously there is the risk of spilling, venting, and danger in an accident, so it is not necessarily a smart idea compared to finding a fuel stop enroute, but is it prohibited?

How about other prohibitions for types of cargo in a private GA airplane? Is their a hazardous waste section of the FAR that I have not seen? One that will be interesting in the near future is legalized recreational or medical marijuana, if your passengers bring it in their luggage (not smoke on the plane). If it is legal for them to own and possess in that state, can you take off and fly it in their luggage? Probably not across state lines, but Massachusetts now has legal recreational and medical weed, so can you fly with it in luggage within the state? Certainly not advocating for legal drug transport, but if a passenger uses medical marijuana, are they allowed to take their medicine with them on an in-state flight? New York states that their medical marijuana must remain within state lines.

Edit: I guess I just poured a bunch of gas on a pile of weed. Maybe not the smartest idea around a group of argumentative pilots.
 
No idea really what's legal or not to carry, but my dad does bring a can of gas with him everywhere in the Luscombe due to his cheap nature and rather small fuel tanks lol .
 
Unless it says you can’t, you can.
Under 91 I don’t think anything says you can’t.

it’s probably more common than you think.
 
I'll probably purchase a Jegs can in the future to haul extra fuel on the front seat of my J3 (12 gal capacity). There are times I cannot make an out and back, particularly if I want to give a ride or two at the out.
 
I’ve never done it or felt the need. It may increase the risk of dying in a crash. However, a crash severe enough to rupture a fuel can in the plane would likely be fatal anyway.
 
Most of the hazmat rules do not apply to private small plane operators. That's not to say that carrying 5 gallons in the plane is safe. Using the seat belt as the restraint as shown above is near suicidal.
 
Occasionally a 3 gallon container of fuel can be found strapped on the front seat of the Cub.
With only 11 gals usable in the plane, it has come in handy on a couple of occasions.
 
I have a history of flying helicopters supporting the oil & gas people in the Gulf of Mexico. Operations are under part 135. Lots of FAA oversight. One 135 requirement is to create an Ops Manual to be carried in flight.
From time to time, somebody would get jacked around by weather and land 100 miles offshore with "dust" in their tanks. Our ops manual permitted transportation of Jet A aboard the rescue aircraft. It specified that plastic cans were prohibited, fuel must be carried in metal cans. The ops manual had a front page with an approval from the FSDO. Also, each individual page was signed off, as approved by, the FSDO. Including the pages dealing with toting fuel.
Appears that the FAA is totally behind "haulin gas".
Bob
 
Matthew Rogers said:
One that will be interesting in the near future is legalized recreational or medical marijuana, if your passengers bring it in their luggage (not smoke on the plane). If it is legal for them to own and possess in that state, can you take off and fly it in their luggage? Probably not across state lines, but Massachusetts now has legal recreational and medical weed, so can you fly with it in luggage within the state?
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There is no such thing as "legal" weed, at least not in the way we're discussing here. Some states have repealed their state laws that made it illegal in that state, but no matter where you are, Federal law still says it's a controlled substance. So if you go to, for instance, Colorado, and buy a little recreational weed, the state of CO won't have a problem with it. You're still violating Federal law, whether the feds have decided to enforce the law that day or not. If I'm wrong I'm absolutely certain someone will correct me.

So. LEGAL? No. Can you get away with it? Probably, if you keep your mouth shut and the Feds don't find out.

Now, substitute "flying for money without a commercial ticket", or "flying through clouds without an instrument rating", or whatever else in place of "having a little recreational weed in the plane in a state that allows it". LEGAL? No. Can you get away with it? Probably, if you keep your mouth shut and the Feds don't find out. Same thing? I guess that's up to you.
 
I don't know about hauling extra fuel in separate tanks. But don't try fling with a modified fuel system unless you have complied with all applicable FAA regs.
 
A modified fuel system sure isn't cheap. For engineering, approvals, parts and installation (excluding the actual tank!) I'm looking at $10k.

I'd rather have it done right though, and it'll be a very nice setup.
 
Just don’t get high with the fumes
 
My 150 is so leaky that even with all the vents closed, the cold winter air is still blowing past as a good clip, so fumes are not as big an issue. And unlike those with nice big engines, the little O-200 does not put out an excess of cabin heat. Full heat is just enough to be comfortable with a sweater. Better than an open cockpit for sure.
 
Even the cheap little red Jerry cans don’t leak enough fumes to be a issue.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Got a regulatory reference that says who they do or done apply to?
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DOT has say so. CFR 49 is the reference. Its downloadable. Applies to road, rail, air, sea and maybe even pack horses.
Good luck wading through that pub. Its the size of an epic paperback novel. Even tells you how to legally transport a nuke.
Bob
 
There are better quality fuel containers that could reasonably be expected to not leak in event of a crash, provided that the are secured properly. Fuel Safe makes a bladder that isn't going to leak unless you attack it with a knife, and there are DOT approved metal cans as well. The $20 cans you get at Home Depot are a PITA because they're so slippery that they're hard to keep in place. I don't like the caps on them, either. Better containers are available from Summit Racing or Jeg's.

Looking at that picture that @Stewartb posted, oy. I'd be much more worried about the fuel cans getting loose in turbulence and making the airplane uncontrollable. Also, if you were in a crash, they'd most likely break loose and there's a good chance that the pilot would receive some sort of crushing injury.

I suspect the chance of fire in a crash is greater from the airplane's fuel system than from the gasoline stored in containers in the cabin. Wing tanks are more subject to damage, as is the fuel plumbing going to the engine, than is a sealed container in the cabin, provided it is secured for any survivable impact. Again, I'd be more worried about a full can causing a crushing injury than it leaking gasoline and starting a fire.

As someone who has raced cars, flown light GA and hang glided, skydived, and worst of all, ridden a motorcycle in rush hour city traffic, I'm not averse to taking risks, just unnecessary ones.
 
Bell206 said:
No hazmat regs for private aircraft (Part 91). Most others yes.
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Bell206 said:
HAZMAT has it's own regulations but only applicable to "commerce" operations. Private use not included--which is same exemption for carrying HAZMAT in your personal vehicle.

Here's regs for aircraft. Subpart C gives exceptions for pax aircraft if no other option.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...true&node=pt49.2.175&rgn=div5#se49.2.175_1310
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So 91K ops are still not “Commerce”?
 
Read the full 175.1 for applicability.
 
flyingron said:
Read the full 175.1 for applicability.
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§175.1 Purpose, scope and applicability.
(a) This part prescribes requirements that apply to the transportation of hazardous materials in commerce aboard (including attached to or suspended from) aircraft. The requirements in this part are in addition to other requirements contained in parts 171, 172, 173, 178, and 180 of this subchapter.

(b) This part applies to the offering, acceptance, and transportation of hazardous materials in commerce by aircraft to, from, or within the United States, and to any aircraft of United States registry anywhere in air commerce. This subchapter applies to any person who performs, attempts to perform, or is required to perform any function subject to this subchapter, including—(1) Air carriers, indirect air carriers, and freight forwarders and their flight and non-flight employees, agents, subsidiary and contract personnel (including cargo, passenger and baggage acceptance, handling, loading and unloading personnel); and

(2) Air passengers that carry any hazardous material on their person or in their carry-on or checked baggage.

(c) This part does not apply to aircraft of United States registry under lease to and operated by foreign nationals outside the United States if:

(1) Hazardous materials forbidden aboard aircraft by §172.101 of this subchapter are not carried on the aircraft; and

(2) Other hazardous materials are carried in accordance with the regulations of the State (nation) of the aircraft operator.

(d) The requirements of this subchapter do not apply to transportation of hazardous material in support of dedicated air ambulance, firefighting, or search and rescue operations performed in compliance with the operator requirements under federal air regulations, title 14 of the CFR.
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Same question after reading it both times.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
So 91K ops are still not “Commerce”?
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From my limited knowledge on Part 91K, it is closer to 135 ops. Plus there are a hundred variables whether a "management company" is used or if actual owners manage. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a hazmat training requirement like 135.

When it comes to hazmat rules think personal use for exemption. Because even if an aircraft is truly private but operates for a business (commerce) those hazmat rules apply. For example, using your personal vehicle for transporting company hazmat on the job can cause you to lose the personal use exemption from these regulations. Even after 4 years retirement I think I can still fill out hazmat paperwork in my sleep.
 
There was a similar thread last year. No surprise, it also had expert advice by guys who don’t have any experience with what they’re talking about. ;)

Plastic jugs work great for transport. The static risk from plastic is when dispensing. Let the fuel temp normalize to ambient. Fuel out of an underground tank is cold and will expand in a jug. Leave a little head space and before flying squeeze the jug to remove the air and seal the jug tight. That gives it a little expansion capacity. Air in a fuel jug is what expands the most and that air will vent. Nobody wants to smell gas in flight. When bringing empties home do the same squeeze and seal routine but squeeze more pressure out knowing the air will expand more than liquids do.
 
I had wondered about this recently. I was watching a video of some guys flying a Cessna 170 and a 185 into a remote gravel strip in the wilderness of Alaska. In one shot, a guy was pouring gas out of a 5-gallon can into one of the planes. It was your basic red plastic jug. I wondered if that was legal, and if not, what would one have to do to carry gas legally in a plane. With the type of flying some of those guys do, they would definitely have to take extra gas along.
 
If we weren’t allowed to carry fuel in containers in planes none of the remote lodges and cabins could survive. Seeing guys loading gas can and propane tanks into planes is common for private and 135 operators. Come visit Lake Hood in the summer and look at the commercial operator’s parking lots and float docks. You’ll see fuel and propane staged and waiting for a plane.
 
All good to know. Those Jegs jugs look great. I like that the fueling jug has a gas flow nozzle. 5 gallons in 68 seconds. That alone would save me a lot of time as it takes 5 minutes for me to put in 5 gallons from a regular auto gas can. That is nearly 10 minutes every flight. The cans I have now work well and are sealed very well - they puff up and suck down depending on temperature so they keep fumes contained. Not sure if they can get over pressurized and where it would blow out if that is the case.
 
Stewartb said:
If we weren’t allowed to carry fuel in containers in planes none of the remote lodges and cabins could survive. Seeing guys loading gas can and propane tanks into planes is common for private and 135 operators. Come visit Lake Hood in the summer and look at the commercial operator’s parking lots and float docks. You’ll see fuel and propane staged and waiting for a plane.
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Makes sense.
 
Stewartb said:
If we weren’t allowed to carry fuel in containers in planes none of the remote lodges and cabins could survive. Seeing guys loading gas can and propane tanks into planes is common for private and 135 operators. Come visit Lake Hood in the summer and look at the commercial operator’s parking lots and float docks. You’ll see fuel and propane staged and waiting for a plane.
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Keep in mind that those commercial operators that carry it have specific hazmat training and procedures that “we”do not.
 
Are you sure? They aren't using DOT CDL to fly, are they? They may have something in their 135 ops manual but I'd think that's up to each operator to establish.
 
Stewartb said:
Are you sure? They aren't using DOT CDL to fly, are they? They may have something in their 135 ops manual but I'd think that's up to each operator to establish.
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It may be up to each 135 operator to establish, but they need approval, training, and procedures.
 
Fallsrider said:
I wondered if that was legal, and if not, what would one have to do to carry gas legally in a plane.
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There is specific hazmat guidance in 49CR 175.310 on aircraft only ops. There is even a separate paragraph on Alaska ops. The key applicability is only for "commerce" ops. The regs do not apply to private individuals operating in a personal capacity.

For example, I supported remote 135 ops. For helicopters it was easy as we transported all fuel and other hazmat externally in baskets or longline. But we still had to follow our certified hazmat process. However, when I flew back to the staging area and loaded my tools and 10 gallons of sump turbine fuel in my truck all requirements to follow Part 175 on the turbine fuel ended provided I was off the clock and on my own time. And the same goes for a person who loads 10 gallons of avgas and a propane bottle in his personal Cub and heads out to his remote camp on his own time. No hazmat regs to follow except common sense.
 
Bell206 said:
There is specific hazmat guidance in 49CR 175.310 on aircraft only ops. There is even a separate paragraph on Alaska ops. The key applicability is only for "commerce" ops. The regs do not apply to private individuals operating in a personal capacity.

For example, I supported remote 135 ops. For helicopters it was easy as we transported all fuel and other hazmat externally in baskets or longline. But we still had to follow our certified hazmat process. However, when I flew back to the staging area and loaded my tools and 10 gallons of sump turbine fuel in my truck all requirements to follow Part 175 on the turbine fuel ended provided I was off the clock and on my own time. And the same goes for a person who loads 10 gallons of avgas and a propane bottle in his personal Cub and heads out to his remote camp on his own time. No hazmat regs to follow except common sense.
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Exactly..."we" can do it, but that has nothing to do with the fact that commercial operators may be authorized.
 
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