Carry the entire medical certificate?

When I get my new certificate and SI letter I will make multiple copies and keep the originals in the airplane and the copies in the safe. I hope I can tell the difference so I don't inadvertently sign a copy to keep in the airplane.
 
Gary F said:
When I get my new certificate and SI letter I will make multiple copies and keep the originals in the airplane and the copies in the safe. I hope I can tell the difference so I don't inadvertently sign a copy to keep in the airplane.
Click to expand...

Personally, I have a GMail account that is never used for anything (except me) that I e-mail scans of all important documents to. This account is never used to sign up for websites, the address is not shared with anyone (save my wife) and receives precisely zero spam.

When I need to look something up, I just pull up any web browser, and voila, all my documents in very detailed scans.

You guys think it's a PITA to have your medical and cert with you when flying...as an alien, I have to have my I-551 with me at all times by federal law [8 USC 1304(e)], and if my wallet gets stolen or lost, it's about $500 to replace just that card.
 
Doing a little bit of research this morning I came across this:

Pilot was found to be in violation of 61.3(a) and 61.3(c) for failing to have his airman and medical certificates in his personal possession. However, the Board held that his failure to have the certificates was due to the mistaken but reasonable assumption that they were in his luggage and held that no sanction was required. Administrator v. Miller, 5 NTSB 407, (1985).
Click to expand...
 
Gary F said:
When I get my new certificate and SI letter I will make multiple copies and keep the originals in the airplane and the copies in the safe. I hope I can tell the difference so I don't inadvertently sign a copy to keep in the airplane.
Click to expand...

Yes. If you don't have the proper copy, it will probably cause you to crash into a school for handicapped children and your insurance WILL NOT PAY!!!!
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Doing a little bit of research this morning I came across this:
Click to expand...

Yup. Every once in a while somebody would, on a trip, lose his wallet or suddenly realize he didn't have the certificates. Sometimes it was during a ramp check, but usually not. I never heard of sanctions for an inadvertent violation here, but in any case the show stopped. The CP's office would then get a telex / fax / email from OKC verifying privileges / medical, and the trip could continue.

Here a copy of the document is allowed - since even the "original" is printed "locally", and it's an "authorization". The duration is 60 days now (fax or email only), although lost licenses are usually replaced much more quickly.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Looking at the language of the reg, I actually think the argument that 61.3 requires originals and not copies in the crewmembers' personal possession during the flight is plausible, because one can argue that "certificate" is not synonymous with "copy of certificate." I just don't see any upside to trying to convince the FAA to be hard-assed about it.
 
Palmpilot said:
Looking at the language of the reg, I actually think the argument that 61.3 requires originals and not copies in the crewmembers' personal possession during the flight is plausible, because one can argue that "certificate" is not synonymous with "copy of certificate." I just don't see any upside to trying to convince the FAA to be hard-assed about it.
Click to expand...
That is only an issue if an inspector can distinguish the original from a copy. Having copies is nice so you don't need to bug somebody and wait if the original gets lost or damaged. What do you think about the photo in my previous post #114? I think it is unlikely that anybody could determine with any degree of legal certainty if it is the original or copy so who cares?
 
Gary F said:
I think it is unlikely that anybody could determine with any degree of legal certainty if it is the original or copy so who cares?
Click to expand...

Not me. I carry the originals, but as far as I am concerned, what others do about this is between them and the FAA.
 
I carry the originals and I don't worry about losing them. The process to get an email from the FAA saying that you have a valid certificate and medical took only minutes. I was on a trip out of town when my wallet was stolen. It was more of a PITA replacing other things than my medical, pilot's certificate and CFI.
 
Everskyward said:
I carry the originals and I don't worry about losing them. The process to get an email from the FAA saying that you have a valid certificate and medical took only minutes. I was on a trip out of town when my wallet was stolen. It was more of a PITA replacing other things than my medical, pilot's certificate and CFI.
Click to expand...
Did you print out a new original on your printer from the email? If so, conceptually what's the difference between that and copying the one the FAA sent in the mail? Why should you need to contact the FAA medical department and tie up resources? I am still waiting for them to rubber stamp my eye exam to renew my SI medical which expired at the end of January. Not an efficient system.
 
Gary F said:
Did you print out a new original on your printer from the email? If so, conceptually what's the difference between that and copying the one the FAA sent in the mail? Why should you need to contact the FAA medical department and tie up resources? I am still waiting for them to rubber stamp my eye exam to renew my SI medical which expired at the end of January. Not an efficient system.
Click to expand...
There was no "new original" just a letter. I also didn't speak to anyone in person. It was all automatic. I later received a "new original" of my medical and pilot's certificates in the mail.
 
Gary F said:
What served as your medical certificate? Was the letter a valid substitute for a medical certificate until you received a new original that was later mailed?
Click to expand...
Yes...

From the FAA site...
You may request temporary authority to exercise certificate privileges of a valid airman and/or medical certificate or verification of an expired flight instructor certificate in the form of a facsimile (FAX) or e-mail. This authority will be valid for 60 days pending receipt of a permanent replacement certificate or reinstatement of an expired flight instructor certificate. Only one (1) on-line request for temporary authority can be obtained within any six (6) month period.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Gary F said:
What served as your medical certificate? Was the letter a valid substitute for a medical certificate until you received a new original that was later mailed?
Click to expand...
Everskyward said:
Yes...
Click to expand...
Well that's a real hoot. It is not valid to have a copy which is indistinguishable from the original certificate but a letter emailed and printed on your printer saying you have a medical certificate is just fine. Does anybody else see a problem here?
 
Gary F said:
Well that's a real hoot. It is not valid to have a copy which is indistinguishable from the original certificate but a letter emailed and printed on your printer saying you have a medical certificate is just fine. Does anybody else see a problem here?
Click to expand...
I don't see a problem. In fact I think it's great that they allow you to do this. I'm just trying to put people's minds at ease that it isn't the end of the world if they lose these things.
 
Gary F said:
Well that's a real hoot. It is not valid to have a copy which is indistinguishable from the original certificate but a letter emailed and printed on your printer saying you have a medical certificate is just fine. Does anybody else see a problem here?
Click to expand...

See post 126. It's good for sixty days, and you can do it only once per six months. It's a legal distinction; a copy of a letter of authorization is okay (much like a copy of an SI is okay). AFAIK There's nothing in 14 CFR that says FAA has to be "reasonable", or to "make sense". :)
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I'm fairly certain a photocopy as the ONLY copy on the pilot's person would not be acceptable when offered for inspection during International ops. Wouldn't expect Bahamian, Canadian or Mexican Customs to be happy with the lack of originals. Logic suggests the same applies in the U.S.

I carry the originals... And am thankful for inspectors/enforcers who have brains and sense enough to consider circumstances and a pilot's general attitude before commencing enforcement actions against a hard-earned certificate.
Click to expand...

Bahamian's look at a certificate? YHGTBSM... Never happen unless you get caught smuggling. The only thing I ever show is my passport and visa card or cash.
 
LearDriver said:
How long does it take to verify the certificate & medical?
Click to expand...

As much as a minute or two if it's that important.


LearDriver said:
Has anyone ever tried to pass off fake certificate & medical?
Click to expand...

Haven't seen any fake ones, but did have a fellow that had his medical denied try to say he had left the certificate at home "in his other wallet". :nono:
 
Everskyward said:
I don't see a problem. In fact I think it's great that they allow you to do this. I'm just trying to put people's minds at ease that it isn't the end of the world if they lose these things.
Click to expand...
I do. It is unnecessary and inefficient. The job of an inspector is to determine if a pilot has a valid medical and I don't see how a prohibition on making a copy makes any difference. The real test is to take information from the certificate (original or copy) and to verify it in the FAA database. All of these forms would be very easy to forge so having the original or a printed letter of authorization serves no real purpose other than to make life more complicated for pilots. Another point is that the medical certificate does not self destruct if you get a disqualifying medical condition so you are always on the honor system anyway.
 
Gary F said:
I do. It is unnecessary and inefficient. The job of an inspector is to determine if a pilot has a valid medical and I don't see how a prohibition on making a copy makes any difference. The real test is to take information from the certificate (original or copy) and to verify it in the FAA database. All of these forms would be very easy to forge so having the original or a printed letter of authorization serves no real purpose other than to make life more complicated for pilots. Another point is that the medical certificate does not self destruct if you get a disqualifying medical condition so you are always on the honor system anyway.
Click to expand...


I still fail to see the prohibition that has people bothered...:dunno:
 
Gary F said:
All of these forms would be very easy to forge so having the original or a printed letter of authorization serves no real purpose other than to make life more complicated for pilots.
Click to expand...
I don't see what is complicated. They hand you a medical, you fold it up and put it wherever you keep it when you go flying. That said, I don't care what you do with your own medical. I'm just stating what I do with mine. If I had been carrying a copy and it got stolen I still wouldn't have had a physical piece of paper without the letter since I was not at home.
 
Everskyward said:
I don't see what is complicated. They hand you a medical, you fold it up and put it wherever you keep it when you go flying. That said, I don't care what you do with your own medical. I'm just stating what I do with mine. If I had been carrying a copy and it got stolen I still wouldn't have had a physical piece of paper without the letter since I was not at home.
Click to expand...


Same here, my license and med are in my wallet at all times. I used to keep them in my flight case, but quit doing that after the time I grabbed my sea case instead of my flying case and didn't have my stuff even though that was a non issue as well.

The things some people decide to worry about concerns me more than the original issue. The people who dwell on minutia are also those that often miss the forest for the trees. They are great to have as a crew resource, but they are poor commanders.
 
Last edited:
Gary F said:
Unwise or something else? I wonder why somebody would be willing to expend so much effort to make it official that I am a criminal for keeping a copy of my medical and SI letter in the airplane and leaving the originals in a safe.
Click to expand...


It doesn't actually happen is the reality of the situation. People can fear monger all they want, it's a type of psychopathy; I choose not to play.

My question to you is what is so precious about your pilots cert and medical that they warrant storage in a safe? These are all recorded documents easily and inexpensively replaced, no worries at all.

Do you keep your drivers license in a safe? The same rules apply there as to your pilot's cert and medical. In fact it's worse, the cops can actually write you a ticket with a fine for it and you're way more likely to get asked for your drivers license in your life than pilot cert and medical. The reality is the cop calls you in and if what you say matches with a clean report and confirming information back, you leave with just an 85 in a 65.
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
My question to you is what is so precious about your pilots cert and medical that they warrant storage in a safe? These are all recorded documents easily and inexpensively replaced, no worries at all.
Click to expand...
My question too...like I said, I have to carry my I-551 (Green Card) with me at all times, and to replace it costs $450...

To replace you Airman's Certificate costs $2. Your medical another $2. So that's <1% what my card costs to replace.

That said, as far as I am concerned, if you speak nicely to the Inspector, and he's willing to accept a copy, he's the representative of the Administrator, and that qualifies for the "other documentation acceptable to the Administrator" part of the reg.

I keep electronic scans of my certificates, mainly so that if I lose the originals, I have all the details (date of issue, certificate number, etc.) from the original to speed the process of applying for appropriate replacements. That said, if I ever found myself caught short and ramped when I accidentally left my wallet in the car at another airport, I could pull up the e-Copy in less than a minute and beg for mercy!
 
JeffDG said:
My question too...like I said, I have to carry my I-551 (Green Card) with me at all times, and to replace it costs $450...

I keep electronic scans of my certificates, mainly so that if I lose the originals, I have all the details (date of issue, certificate number, etc.) from the original to speed the process of applying for appropriate replacements. That said, if I ever found myself caught short and ramped when I accidentally left my wallet in the car at another airport, I could pull up the e-Copy in less than a minute and beg for mercy!
Click to expand...

In the 15 years I had a Green Card, the only time I ever carried it was coming into the US. As for e copies I do them as well, actually I have them on my website, if they or I have a smart phone or tablet I can show them a facimile they can verify, I also have all my documents individually as jpgs on my phone and ipad through my email account. I can access this stuff six ways from Sunday electronically and I've been doing it since the first Siemens Pocket PC Phone Edition came out. It's just not a big deal.

The reality is it went like this, I was flying to Oxnard with the owners wife in the right seat and buddy in the back, no luggage but we do have a few hundred pounds worth of anchor and chain. I just grabbed my case but didn't look in it since my head sets hang and my plane stayed ready to fly. Took off out of LGB on 25L transfered to LAX, noticed an oil leak on port, caged it, "LA 04Y caged an engine at 1300' turning back Long Beach" "Roger, good luck","Long Beach 04Y returning 25L down one engine""Roger, would you prefer 07R?""No thanks, I'm holding 1300 10 over blue with power to spare, I'll take the left turns to parking.""Roger" entering downwind..."04Y, would you like me to roll the equipment?""Sure, I might mess this up yet." about 200' on final..."how's that gear indicator looking?""Green locked and down, thanks for thinking of it." Rolled it onto our ramp shy of my parking spot and met with CFR, opened the cowl, identified the problem and that there was no fire hazard and released them. At this time LGBPD working as airport security rolled up, asked me for my documents, I pulled out my captains license, said "oops, wrong case", the kid got in a huff, the sergeant said, "come on, lets go, that isn't our issue". I walked in the shop, called the tower as they requested, gave them my report which took 25 seconds, went and replaced the cracked fitting while Dave drove back to the boat and swapped my cases. We got into Oxnard 2 hrs late, no big deal.

The funniest thing was the owners wife was just her normal relaxed bubbly self the whole time. Dave on the other hand was terrified. When we were back up and flying Dave asked her, "Weren't you scared at all?" her reply? "Shoot no Henning sails us into the dock with no engine all the time she's way bigger than this plane.":rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
My question to you is what is so precious about your pilots cert and medical that they warrant storage in a safe? These are all recorded documents easily and inexpensively replaced, no worries at all.

Do you keep your drivers license in a safe? The same rules apply there as to your pilot's cert and medical. In fact it's worse, the cops can actually write you a ticket with a fine for it and you're way more likely to get asked for your drivers license in your life than pilot cert and medical. The reality is the cop calls you in and if what you say matches with a clean report and confirming information back, you leave with just an 85 in a 65.
Click to expand...
I am not as worried about losing my drivers license as I am my medical certificate. I have never attempted to replace a medical certificate but prior dealings with government and military bureaucracy have not been encouraging. It makes more sense to have several copies so that if one is lost I don't need to hunt down and beg somebody for a replacement. I never fly without all of the proper documents. The only difference in the future is that I will carry the stinkin original and keep a few copies elsewhere and only pull them out if the original gets lost.
 
Gary F said:
I am not as worried about losing my drivers license as I am my medical certificate. I have never attempted to replace a medical certificate but prior dealings with government and military bureaucracy have not been encouraging. It makes more sense to have several copies so that if one is lost I don't need to hunt down and beg somebody for a replacement. I never fly without all of the proper documents. The only difference in the future is that I will carry the stinkin original and keep a few copies elsewhere and only pull them out if the original gets lost.
Click to expand...

That's what most people do, but it's not something worth being paranoid over. R&W showed you what the gov't response to this issue is, "minimal civil penalty" best I recall that is an informal rebuke, and "Certificate Action" is blank and none. This pretty much is corroborated in my experience, a cop yelled at me for 13 seconds and that was the entire end of the issue. The FAA was not even concerned in the slightest.

Why your paranoia has been increased with this thread rather than dissipated would be a greater concern to the FAA than forgetting to take your ticket on a flight.
 
Henning said:
That's what most people do, but it's not something worth being paranoid over. R&W showed you what the gov't response to this issue is, "minimal civil penalty" best I recall that is an informal rebuke, and "Certificate Action" is blank and none. This pretty much is corroborated in my experience, a cop yelled at me for 13 seconds and that was the entire end of the issue. The FAA was not even concerned in the slightest.

Why your paranoia has been increased with this thread rather than dissipated would be a greater concern to the FAA than forgetting to take your ticket on a flight.
Click to expand...
I would also promptly start to work on getting an official replacement.

I don't think I am paranoid considering some of the posts in this thread. If I were worried about the FAA making a mental health diagnosis on the basis of my posts here then I might be paranoid. Anyway, since when did you become an amateur psychiatrist?
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
Why your paranoia has been increased with this thread rather than dissipated would be a greater concern to the FAA than forgetting to take your ticket on a flight.
Click to expand...
Stuff like this makes me worry that somebody in the FAA may have a similar thought process:

You will note that 61.3(a)(1) doesn't specify "original," either. Do you think you can get away with a copy of your pilot certificate, too?

It really frustrates me when folks try so hard to find one word that isn't in the reg and then demand its inclusion before they believe what the reg says. What is so difficult to understand about "the appropriate medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the FAA, that is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft?" Either what you have with you is a certificate issued under part 67 or it isn't, and a copy of a certificate is not that certificate. As mentioned by another, that "other documentation" is a substitute for a medical not a photocopy of an FAA medical certificate. To quote Flight Standards on that:
Or this: How about an email from the AFS HQ office in charge of that matter?

I am convinced that there are government employees who lose sight of the big picture and take a hard nosed approach to minor violations.
 
Henning said:
In the 15 years I had a Green Card
Click to expand...

Then you were committing a misdemeanor the entire time:
[8 USC 1304(e)

Now, have I seen this law enforced...no...but I was advised by competent counsel that I needed to carry it, and my reading of the law is the same, so I carry the damned thing!
 
Here's what I got from AFS-810:
I can tell you that I have not come across any copies yet on all my ramps and 121 enroute checks, all original.

But you can now download and print a copy of your medical authorization (and Pilot certification) at the FBO from the FAA web site, good for 30 days while you look for your “Lost” (forgot at home) originals.

If I were king I would like you to be able to show the FAA both on your cell phone or Ipad.
Ever hear of the paper reduction act?????
Click to expand...
 
Ron Levy said:
Here's what I got from AFS-810:
Click to expand...

How do you get the duplicate? Can it be done quickly or do you need to set up an account? Will they send one to just anybody? How do they know they are sending the duplicate to the right person and not someone impersonating the pilot?
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Damn, more common sense! :rolleyes:

Better fire off that letter to the Chief Counsel and get a determination on this! :rofl::rofl:
Click to expand...
Yup -- if you don't have the original, just get another FAA-approved solution on the spot. Meets the letter of the law, and makes life easy for everyone. How do you like the idea of having it all on your smartphone? Maybe your logbook, too. I'd love to see that -- instructors could beam their endorsements from their phone to the trainee's. No more hand-cramps on long endorsements and issues with illegibile endorsements or signatures.
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
Yup -- if you don't have the original, just get another FAA-approved solution on the spot. Meets the letter of the law, and makes life easy for everyone. How do you like the idea of having it all on your smartphone? Maybe your logbook, too. I'd love to see that -- instructors could beam their endorsements from their phone to the trainee's. No more hand-cramps on long endorsements and issues with illegibile endorsements or signatures.
Click to expand...

Last year at OSH the FAA allowed a pilot to fly with his AWC on his electronic device.

who knows the next step? every thing on a CD?
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top