Carry the entire medical certificate?

Henning said:
Might, I'm waiting for the word original to appear.
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You will note that 61.3(a)(1) doesn't specify "original," either. Do you think you can get away with a copy of your pilot certificate, too?

It really frustrates me when folks try so hard to find one word that isn't in the reg and then demand its inclusion before they believe what the reg says. What is so difficult to understand about "the appropriate medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the FAA, that is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft?" Either what you have with you is a certificate issued under part 67 or it isn't, and a copy of a certificate is not that certificate. As mentioned by another, that "other documentation" is a substitute for a medical not a photocopy of an FAA medical certificate. To quote Flight Standards on that:

  • What constitutes "other documentation acceptable to the Administrator?" Examples of "other documentation acceptable to the Administrator" is a valid driver’s license for sport pilots, foreign medical licenses for use with § 61.75 U.S. pilot certificate or § 61.77 special purpose pilot authorizations.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
I aways have the full, original issue, medical in my wallet since I need it to drive to the airport. Quote:

I do not understand this. Why is a FAA medical necessary to drive I assume a vehicle on public roads?

Also,
I have read and re read this entire thread. I have not had a valid medical for nearly 20 years, (hopefully get mine this week) but for the 20 or so years before when I did I have never experienced a ramp check so I have no experience in this discussion. However, when does common sense enter into this? Isn't it possible for the inspector to determine on-the-spot by the number on the medical certificate its validity? As I stated, this is a question, not entering an opinion on the discussion either way.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'll do my best, but it may just be an email. If I can have your FAA email address, I'll try to get it sent there. If it has to come from the Chief Counsel, that may take longer.
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Has to be an "official" memo signed, there are agency procedures on this. An email from one Inspector to another hardly constitutes anything "official".

Just remember what has been said about contacting the Chief Counsel about everything, if the opinion comes out that greatly affects a regulation that ruling will forever have your name attached and will be referred to as such.

Some rocks are left better unturned. :rolleyes:
 
Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (OCPD) is a condition in which a person is preoccupied with rules, orderliness, and control.

A person with this personality disorder has symptoms of perfectionism that usually begin in early adulthood. This perfectionism may interfere with the person's ability to complete tasks, because their standards are so rigid.
http://health.nytimes.com/health/gu...compulsive-personality-disorder/overview.html
 
comanche said:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
I aways have the full, original issue, medical in my wallet since I need it to drive to the airport. Quote:

I do not understand this. Why is a FAA medical necessary to drive I assume a vehicle on public roads?
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A state issued "Medical" a.k.a. "Drivers License" is required to drive on the road and to operate under the sport pilot rules. (I was just giving youse guys a hard time.)
 
BillTIZ said:
Other documentation acceptable would be a military issued medical.
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Among other things.

(1) A person may serve as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft only if that person holds the appropriate medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the FAA, that is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft. Paragraph (c)(2) of this section provides certain exceptions to the requirement to hold a medical certificate.
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Why not keep "other documentation acceptable to the FAA" open-ended? I know it also includes the email from the FAA stating that you have a certificate and/or a medical in the case that you have lost one or the other or both.
 
Ron Levy said:
You will note that 61.3(a)(1) doesn't specify "original," either. Do you think you can get away with a copy of your pilot certificate, too?

It really frustrates me when folks try so hard to find one word that isn't in the reg and then demand its inclusion before they believe what the reg says. What is so difficult to understand about "the appropriate medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the FAA, that is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft?" Either what you have with you is a certificate issued under part 67 or it isn't, and a copy of a certificate is not that certificate. As mentioned by another, that "other documentation" is a substitute for a medical not a photocopy of an FAA medical certificate. To quote Flight Standards on that:
Click to expand...

So if you, as a pilot, have your certificates in order and you instill into your students to do the same, why are you obsessed with what another individual may do?

Using ARM here, will a pilot who leaves his medical at home, or another pilot who makes a copy of his certificate constitute a hazard to flight because of this? Is there a reason to believe there may be injury as a result? What is the highest risk that could take place?

This is purely administrative, should the Agency come out with a "no exception" policy to anything administrative and impose strict enforcement? Or should there be leeway and use the judgment of the Inspector in each individual case?
 
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Everskyward said:
Among other things.

Why not keep "other documentation acceptable to the FAA" open-ended? I know it also includes the email from the FAA stating that you have a certificate and/or a medical in the case that you have lost one or the other or both.
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Why someone would go to the extent of contacting the FAA and try to get a ruling to close an open-ended case such as that is beyond me, especially when it doesn't have any effect on them personally nor does it constitute a hazard to aviation safety. :dunno:
 
Maybe we should issue inspectors a special test kit to determine if a document is an original issued by the FAA and not just a convincing copy. Who knows how many are being used by deceptive pilots?
 
LearDriver said:
I normally hand them the photocopies first and then while digging out my originals from the wallet I get told that the copies are sufficient.
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Most likely because they see you have the original in your possession.
 
Let's just move on to new technology. We'll put that tracking chip under your arm with all your personal data, certificates, auto registration and medical/financial information. Then just scan the chip when needed like the do at the dog pound.

But for today, just put PDF files of your life on your smart phone and call up the appropriate file when needed.
 
Ron Levy said:
You will note that 61.3(a)(1) doesn't specify "original," either. Do you think you can get away with a copy of your pilot certificate, too?
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Depending on the circumstances, most likely. The time I forgot my cert, landed OEI and had to produce docs, didn't have them, wasn't a big deal.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
So if you, as a pilot, have your certificates in order and you instill into your students to do the same, why are you obsessed with what another individual may do?

Using ARM here, will a pilot who leaves his medical at home, or another pilot who makes a copy of his certificate constitute a hazard to flight because of this? Is there a reason to believe there may be injury as a result? What is the highest risk that could take place?

This is purely administrative, should the Agency come out with a "no exception" policy to anything administrative and impose strict enforcement? Or should there be leeway and use the judgment of the Inspector in each individual case?
Click to expand...

We must all follow our orders or the world will collapse into chaos. There is no room for individual thought. Those who manage to get in control must be obeyed.
 
BillTIZ said:
Let's just move on to new technology. We'll put that tracking chip under your arm with all your personal data, certificates, auto registration and medical/financial information. Then just scan the chip when needed like the do at the dog pound.

But for today, just put PDF files of your life on your smart phone and call up the appropriate file when needed.
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Tell you what, I'd be perfectly happy if the govt would issue me one biometric chip card with all my credentials, ratings and clearances on it. Right now I have to carry a half a dozen different cards and a portfolio of certificates as well a 2 picture IDs one of which has to be a passport. I'm not even worried about the couple hundred bucks a piece I have to spend on each, fine, I'll pay, just put it on a single source to carry.
 
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Rotor&Wing said:
This is purely administrative, should the Agency come out with a "no exception" policy to anything administrative and impose strict enforcement? Or should there be leeway and use the judgment of the Inspector in each individual case?
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I'm trying to understand whether you are saying it's legal to fly without your medical certificate, or that Inspectors should have leeway to exercise judgement on how to deal with violations of that regulation. I think the answer to the first question is "no," but that the answer to the second is "yes." Are you saying otherwise?
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm trying to understand whether you are saying it's legal to fly without your medical certificate, or that Inspectors should have leeway to exercise judgement on how to deal with violations of that regulation. I think the answer to the first question is "no," but that the answer to the second is "yes." Are you saying otherwise?
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I've been extremely clear on how I view the situation. You can go back and reread my responses if you don't understand, I believe most folks reading here do.

You're splitting hairs. This is one reason I try to avoid these types of threads.

From Order 2150.3B

b. This order is a staff manual. It guides FAA enforcement personnel in the exercise
of their discretion in handling compliance and enforcement matters. However, it does not cover
every situation, and there will be situations where deviation is warranted, and FAA personnel are
expected to use their experience and sound judgment in carrying out their compliance and
enforcement responsibilities.
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i. Recommendations of Inspectors, Special Agents, Field Offices, and Regional Offices.
FAA investigative personnel recommend initially the appropriate type of response to address an
apparent violation. Often, they are in the best position to evaluate various subjective
considerations, such as the apparent violator’s compliance attitude and whether an alternative to
legal enforcement action may be sufficient to achieve compliance.
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b. Education. FAA investigative personnel should take advantage of opportunities during
their surveillance and inspection activities to strengthen a regulated person’s understanding of
the statutory and regulatory requirements. The FAA also promotes education through public
awareness programs and other special aviation educational efforts.
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Objective of Compliance and Enforcement Program. The FAA’s compliance and
enforcement program is designed to promote compliance with statutory and regulatory
requirements. The program provides a wide range of options for addressing noncompliance.
These options include educational and remedial training efforts, administrative action in the form
of either a warning notice or letter of correction, certificate suspensions for a fixed period of
time, civil penalties, indefinite certificate suspensions pending compliance or demonstration of
qualifications, certificate revocations, injunctions, and referrals for criminal prosecution. When
violations occur, whether they involve operating an airport; producing aircraft, products, or parts;
performing aircraft maintenance; operating aircraft; or shipping hazardous materials, FAA
enforcement personnel must take that action most appropriate to promote safety and compliance
with the regulations. The initial priority of FAA investigative personnel is to correct any
ongoing noncompliance. FAA personnel then determine what action to take by evaluating,
among other things, the seriousness and safety risk imposed by the noncompliance. Elements of
the FAA’s compliance and enforcement program also seek to promote safety and greater
compliance by encouraging regulated persons to disclose their own violations and the
circumstances surrounding those violations. Based on information provided through such
disclosures, the agency’s compliance and enforcement program fosters the implementation of
permanent corrective measures to improve overall safety.
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Under the Table of Sanctions it shows:

(c) Operation without pilot or medical certificate in
personal possession (certificates valid)

Civil Penalty-Minimum

Certificate Action--
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which means minimum civil penalty could be applied. Under "Certificate Action" the box is left blank, meaning no action.
 
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Aww come on. R&W seems to be saying (to me at least) that he expects to see originals, and that he will use his discretion based on the total situation at the time, including pilot attitude, as to what happens if the pilot doesn't have originals with him.
 
Earlier in this thread I asked if Common Sense applies. This is a close to an answer as I received.

The initial priority of FAA investigative personnel is to correct any
ongoing noncompliance. FAA personnel then determine what action to take by evaluating,
among other things, the seriousness and safety risk imposed by the noncompliance.
 
I carry my original. I shredded it and put it in a plastic Baggie. Concerned about personal information being stolen and all. Had to be at least a cross-cut shredder.

(Yes I'm being a smart ass. How the hell did a thread about "just carry your damn medical" get this long anyway? Bwahaha. Pure Asshattery going on here, methinks. Take medical, fold. Put in wallet. Done. Good lord it's not that hard.)
 
The best thing would be for inspectors to have immediate access to the FAA database to verify a pilot's status. An iPad or something similar with 3G wireless should be standard issue. Who cares if it is really an original (but possibly revoked or otherwise invalid) document? I loath carrying my original medical certificate and SI letter. They are really too big for my wallet and I hate to think how much of a hassle it would be to get them replaced.
 
Gary F said:
The best thing would be for inspectors to have immediate access to the FAA database to verify a pilot's status. An iPad or something similar with 3G wireless should be standard issue. Who cares if it is really an original (but possibly revoked or otherwise invalid) document? I loath carrying my original medical certificate and SI letter. They are really too big for my wallet and I hate to think how much of a hassle it would be to get them replaced.
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Issued tablets have a wireless card and can access the databases.:yesnod:
 
I'm fairly certain a photocopy as the ONLY copy on the pilot's person would not be acceptable when offered for inspection during International ops. Wouldn't expect Bahamian, Canadian or Mexican Customs to be happy with the lack of originals. Logic suggests the same applies in the U.S.

I carry the originals... And am thankful for inspectors/enforcers who have brains and sense enough to consider circumstances and a pilot's general attitude before commencing enforcement actions against a hard-earned certificate.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I'm fairly certain a photocopy as the ONLY copy on the pilot's person would not be acceptable when offered for inspection during International ops. Wouldn't expect Bahamian, Canadian or Mexican Customs to be happy with the lack of originals. Logic suggests the same applies in the U.S.

I carry the originals... And am thankful for inspectors/enforcers who have brains and sense enough to consider circumstances and a pilot's general attitude before commencing enforcement actions against a hard-earned certificate.
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How can they determine if it is the original or just a really good copy?
 
TMetzinger said:
the signature of the AME would be one way.
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That being said, I've received the certificate from OKC at time with Dr. Warren Silberman's laser printed signature. Laser printed vs. Photocopied. Someone on the ramp is supposed to be able to differentiate? As someone said above, if they really didn't want it copied, anti-copying paper isn't that hard to get!
 
TMetzinger said:
the signature of the AME would be one way.
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My medicals have been signed by Dr. Silberman. Here is a photo of a copy of one and the original of the other. They are signed in black ink. Please note that Dr. Silberman's signature is remarkably consistent over the years. I partially blocked his signature to prevent unauthorized copying.

Which one is the copy and which one is the original?
 

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dunno... send them both to me in the mail and let me see.

Edit: For SIs that may be Robo-signed, it may be harder to detect a copy. But for the ones signed in the office by an AME, it's probably not as difficult.
 
Gary F said:
My medicals have been signed by Dr. Silberman. Here is a photo of a copy of one and the original of the other. They are signed in black ink. Please note that Dr. Silberman's signature is remarkably consistent over the years. I partially blocked his signature to prevent unauthorized copying.

Which one is the copy and which one is the original?
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Hmmm, yeah, I have to say I agree! LOL
 
TMetzinger said:
dunno... send them both to me in the mail and let me see.
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I'm not gonna carry both so somebody can compare. The one on the left is an original, the one on the right is a copy of a different certificate but you really need to have them side by side and the difference is fairly subtle. A certificate carried around with usual wear would be very difficult to conclusively identify as a copy or original.
 
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Ron Levy said:
I'll do my best, but it may just be an email. If I can have your FAA email address, I'll try to get it sent there. If it has to come from the Chief Counsel, that may take longer.
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I'm finding myself wondering if this isn't a case where it is unwise to poke the sleeping bear.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Just remember what has been said about contacting the Chief Counsel about everything, if the opinion comes out that greatly affects a regulation that ruling will forever have your name attached and will be referred to as such.
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Ouch!
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm finding myself wondering if this isn't a case where it is unwise to poke the sleeping bear.
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Unwise or something else? I wonder why somebody would be willing to expend so much effort to make it official that I am a criminal for keeping a copy of my medical and SI letter in the airplane and leaving the originals in a safe.
 
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