Carpenters of yesteryear (a rant of sorts)

Clark1961

Clark1961

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So I've got this little siding project: replace vinyl siding damaged by hailstorm.

Gotta get rid of the vinyl. It's low maintenance and looks like it belongs in suburbia but it really sucks in terms of being weather tight and golf ball sized hail knocks holes in it.

Looked at options and decided to go with composite siding. Yup, sawdust and glue. Good impact resistance. Looks better than vinyl with several options. Wall will be covered with 16" x 16' boards with 1" overlap. Decent weather seal. Gable end will be a staggered shake style board that is 15" x 4'. Easy enough to work with.

Got the wall covered with mostly few worries. Noticed that the carpenters who built the house in 64 were inconsistent on 16" spacing. The way I learned 16" spacing was you started on one end and made damn sure there was a stud or nailer every 16" no matter what else was going on. Windows and doors did not interrupt the basic pattern. Might require a few extra sticks but ya never, never, never, never restart the pattern.

Well these guys restarted the pattern at windows. In this case 16" spacing meant 16" spacing until something is cut into the wall then the 16" restarts at the last doubler of that interruption and good luck on spacing under the cut. Great. Love it. Make up stud spacing as ya go along. Freakin' idiots.

It was obvious that the sheathers at the time didn't know what the framers were doing as there were more than a few holes knocked in the sheathing by trying to drive nails where there was no stud. Or maybe the sheathers were drunk. Crappy work since they didn't repair the holes they made. I sealed the holes.

Anyway started working on the gable end. Siding material spec calls for nailing 16" o.c. Gable end was built with framing at 24" o.c. Crap. Gotta put nailers in. Also notice the soffit covers the framing entirely. The old siding was floating where it butted the soffit. Huge no-no in my book. Gotta add nailers to the rafter framing to eliminate the float. Double crap.

Checked a few measurements and cut all my nailers. Didn't check the 24" o.c. spacing all the way out. Big mistake. The rafter truss builders used 24" o.c. except where they didn't. Have to crawl down from attic to recut 2 pieces because the morons of 50 years ago couldn't be consistent on frame spacing.

When I worked on framing crews we knew that we'd catch hell (and have to pay for material costs or repairs) if the spacing was inconsistent. I guess that 50 years ago folks weren't smart enough to plan ahead just a little bit. Or maybe they thought the houses wouldn't last any longer than the siding. Or maybe they didn't think.

I won't even go into the lack of weather sealing on either the original construction or by the crew that did the vinyl siding. I muttered under my breath that it's good thing it's a desert here and added housewrap, window tape, and window flashing.

TL:DR House framing has to use consistent stud spacing so anyone who works on the house after the framing crew can do their job correctly.
 
Something that maybe gets overlooked these days...

My grandfather apparently built not one, but two different houses after he got back from the war. It wasn't a hobby like some things these days. He had a family, and he had to literally put a roof over their heads. He wasn't a carpenter by training, but Necessity is a Mother. I have no idea how he did it, what standards he followed, whether or not stud spacing was consistent, etc. I do know that times were tough, and money was in short supply. So if restarting the spacing at windows would save some wood, well...

My point, I guess, is that not every old house was built by a professional crew. The non standard construction may (may) not indicate laziness or ignorance, just inexperience. :)
 
Clark,

Having worked more jobs than you can shake a stick at prior to getting into aircraft maintenance, carpentry was one of them. Started out as a drone whose job was only to put plywood on the rack for those nailing those sheets down on the rafters to grab and haul up.

From there I progressed and wound up working in a cabinet shop for a time. Learned enough there to make a piece of furniture that I'm still sleeping on forty years later. I showed pictures to my high school shop teacher and he was elated with the results.

There are those who do the job right and those who get the money and run. Sounds like you encountered the latter.
 
I understand being paid by the job or being paid by the hour can make a difference. I am not sure how it was done back then, though.
 
Mistake Not... said:
Something that maybe gets overlooked these days...

My grandfather apparently built not one, but two different houses after he got back from the war. It wasn't a hobby like some things these days. He had a family, and he had to literally put a roof over their heads. He wasn't a carpenter by training, but Necessity is a Mother. I have no idea how he did it, what standards he followed, whether or not stud spacing was consistent, etc. I do know that times were tough, and money was in short supply. So if restarting the spacing at windows would save some wood, well...

My point, I guess, is that not every old house was built by a professional crew. The non standard construction may (may) not indicate laziness or ignorance, just inexperience. :)
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Certainly the electrical, plumbing, and heating were done by pros. The gas line was run by an apprentice or jr. journeyman - the layout was good but the make-up sucked. I fixed the make-up when I changed the boiler. The drywall was finished by somebody with experience because of the custom texture patterns used. There is also a whole-house intercom/AM radio system. I'm thinkin' this was a spec home by the developer. He used the cheapest crews he could get...
 
My 1929 house was built before days of 4x8 sheet goods. Studs (2 stories tall - balloon construction) went where there were windows / doors and the rest just got filled in at, what I suspect, was one hammer handle spacing more or less...
 
John221us said:
I understand being paid by the job or being paid by the hour can make a difference. I am not sure how it was done back then, though.
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Most of my framing crew time was in high end stuff so it was all time and materials for carpenters and cost + 10% for the general. Good times fer sure on payday although some of the guys were just a little sketchy...worked with some good leads though, they knew their business.

Some of the stuff we had to do was weird: frame out the interior then the owners would walk through - the next day we'd demo the interior framing and do it again with different wall locations...
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
My 1929 house was built before days of 4x8 sheet goods. Studs (2 stories tall - balloon construction) went where there were windows / doors and the rest just got filled in at, what I suspect, was one hammer handle spacing more or less...
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Laths, chicken wire, and plaster for interior wall finish. Lots of labor and skill required to get it right. Looked great until the foundation settled...
 
As Norman said above, it's not when it was built but by whom. I worked construction (primarily electrical, got to learn a bit of everything). I worked jobs where not only was the spacing exact, but it continued across the ceiling. Every furring strip, stud and stringer lined up. And if you dripped mastic when painting the ductwork, you got down out of the attic and cleaned the cement sub floor ASAP. I also worked jobs where the two story framed building started to lean over and the used a front end loader to push it back upright then nailed the sheathing on so it wouldn't fall over.

There were carpenters 50 years ago that were excellent. And there were others who weren't . From stories my grandfather told me, the same was true in the 1920s.

John
 
We had a 60s ranch when we lived in Fayetteville, NC, built by the owner. He was also a developer and built many houses in the area. It was a well-built house, but his jackass papering crew glued the kitchen wall paper directly to the gypsum board. NO PRIMER! I can't tell you how much I cursed those asshats when we were sprucing up the house for sale.
 
Sheetrockers cuss us framers for this type of nonsense all the time! Hung my first sheet of siding in 1973...
OP, just finished inspecting a $2 million siding job at Tahoe last year. They went with LP Innerseal lap below and shake on the gables. All prefinished with color matching sealants. Got a nice warranty on the job from LP who learned their lessons on product production years ago.....
 
jsstevens said:
As Norman said above, it's not when it was built but by whom. I worked construction (primarily electrical, got to learn a bit of everything). I worked jobs where not only was the spacing exact, but it continued across the ceiling. Every furring strip, stud and stringer lined up. And if you dripped mastic when painting the ductwork, you got down out of the attic and cleaned the cement sub floor ASAP. I also worked jobs where the two story framed building started to lean over and the used a front end loader to push it back upright then nailed the sheathing on so it wouldn't fall over.

There were carpenters 50 years ago that were excellent. And there were others who weren't . From stories my grandfather told me, the same was true in the 1920s.

John
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One old carpenter I worked with had it down pat. When he cut rafters for a hip roof you had not better blame him if they didn't fit.He knew what he was doing. I learned a lot from that man.
 
Norman said:
One old carpenter I worked with had it down pat. When he cut rafters for a hip roof you had not better blame him if they didn't fit.He knew what he was doing. I learned a lot from that man.
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You can tell when you watch somebody. I read a line in a book once that said "Any work done well is it's own fascination." I think it's true. Watching somebody who really knows what they're doing is fascinating. And can be very educational.
 
This. I can listen to types of music I don't normally like, for example, if I can watch them play and they play well.
 
My first house - more of a batchelor’s pad - was built in circa 1909. Roof rafters were 2x4s 24 inches on center. But they measured 2” by 4” and were Black Walnut. I broke several drill bits trying to drll into them!

-Skip
 
jsstevens said:
You can tell when you watch somebody. I read a line in a book once that said "Any work done well is it's own fascination." I think it's true. Watching somebody who really knows what they're doing is fascinating. And can be very educational.
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Yeah, I learn something new every time. The last guy I hired did some drywall finish for me. The guy is wizard - I had to do some drywall repairs and there were some awkward areas around existing door and window trim that needed taping and mudding. He said, "no problem", and proceeded to knock it out perfectly.
 
A friend of mine is remodeling the house on the family homestead. The family bible records that the original part of the house was built in 1840, after the first house burned down. It also records that of the few things saved from the fire, the family Bible was the first to be saved. His grandmother was the last one to live there, and she passed away in the late 90s, in her late 90s.

It was thought that part of the house was remodeled using wood from an old gym floor. And he found the wood. The house was also split in half diagonally two different times when being enlarged. The house is still square, 75X75, single story. And every outside bedroom has a door going outside.

In the front main hallway, walking to the room considered the master bedroom, one side of the hallway has windows that used to be outside windows, but now are inside windows. The door to the bedroom used to be an outside door with glass windows above the door like what used to be seen in the 1920s style farm houses.

One indoor water closet was added in the 20s. It is still the only bathroom in the house. There is one usable outhouse. He plans to rebuild it, with a flush toilet and shower.

He is having quite a time with the different "farmer engineering" in the house...

He has the last 245 acres of what was once an approximately 4600 acre homestead, Part of the Spanish Land Grants negotiated by Stephen F. Austin.

"In 1820 the Spanish government passed a measure to open Texas to foreigners who would respect the laws and constitution of the country. In January 1821, Moses Austin was promised a contract to land on the Brazos River in exchange for bringing 300 Catholic families from Louisiana. After his death in June of that year his son, Stephen F. Austin, assumed the contract. Though the grant was declared void after the Mexican War of Independence, Austin succeeded in negotiating a new contract under President Agustín de Iturbide's colonization law of 1823. After Iturbide's downfall in March 1823, the new Mexican government passed the state colonization law of March 24, 1825, which opened the way for Americans to settle in the northern province of Coahuila and Texas. In exchange for a small fee, heads of families could obtain as much as a league (4428.4) acres of grazing land and a labor (177.1 acres) of cropland. Under the provisions of the decree foreigners had to take an oath promising to obey the federal and state constitutions, practice Christianity, and prove their morality and good habits. Upon agreeing to these conditions and establishing residence, foreigners became Mexican citizens."

His ancestors got the land in the "small fee" time period. I still tease him about being a Mexican citizen..... The original papers on the land acquisition are still with the family.

https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/mpl01
 
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jsstevens said:
As Norman said above, it's not when it was built but by whom.

There were carpenters 50 years ago that were excellent. And there were others who weren't . From stories my grandfather told me, the same was true in the 1920s.

John
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.

I agree with your assessment. Regarding your grandfather, It's always interesting to work on a house built with dimensional lumber. A 2 X 4 is a 2 X 4, dammit. :D



Clark1961 said:
The rafter truss builders used 24" o.c. except where they didn't.
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This is kinda funny.
 
and the first thing that comes to mind is "We've Only Just Begun ..."

and OBTW, I'm pretty sure TL;DR is supposed to be line 1 not line last ???
 
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I recall the building boom in San Diego when I was there. I couldn't believe some of the things I saw.

There is a reason the Steinholme is better than 100 years old. The only thing I don't like about it is that it isn't older.
 
I wonder what craftsmen 50 years from now will say when they have to make repairs to buildings made in today's lightweight construction.
 
Clark,

Your answer is simply two words:

Residential Construction.

I've never seen it done right except when a knowledgeable homeowner was either building his/her own house or at least directly supervising the construction.

I think I've mentioned here before...I watched an entire subdivision be built in Springfield, MO back in the late 80's with one or two sets of rebar. They'd get their inspection and then pull the rebar back out of the footing ditches after the inspector left.

And rebar was CHEAP back in the late 80's...I can't imagine it saved them a dime considering the add'l labor they spent pulling it. But, hey, they got to screw someone. Gave them something to talk about at the bar every evening I suppose.

Besides, if there was rebar in the ditch then it would likely impede the flow of the "self leveling concrete" that they were pouring.
 
weilke said:
I wonder what craftsmen 50 years from now will say when they have to make repairs to buildings made in today's lightweight construction.
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They'll say, "Hey, has anyone ever seen a house built between 1980 and 2017?" And everyone will say no, because those "houses" all dissolved after 25 years due you being made with recycled materials.
 
Lachlan said:
They'll say, "Hey, has anyone ever seen a house built between 1980 and 2017?" And everyone will say no, because those "houses" all dissolved after 25 years due you being made with recycled materials.
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The real garbage construction seems to be in the last 10 years. Laminated I-joists, stamped tin struts, thin OSB covered with tiles that pretend to be hardwood flooring.
Its like we ran out of trees in 2010.
 
Don't worry, within 50 years a non-republican party will build quality housing for all to live in for free....

And toilet paper will be a substitute for sand paper....:yikes:
 
Then there was the build idea followed by my great grandfather and the guy who built the house we lived in in the 1960s through early 2010s - if one 2x4 will do, use two. Those two houses were SOLID.

The junk used by contractors to build both of my kids houses over the past couple of years, however. They had to add 2x4s and 2x6s next to existing ones as the ones used had big missing chunks from the. Should never have been used in the first place.
 
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