CAP buying 21 new tow planes

[AuntPeggy]

According to AOPA, CAP will purchase 21 new Cessna 172 Skyhawks. The Skyhawks will be outfitted primarily to tow gliders and support the ongoing mission to offer youth cadets firsthand experience with flight.
http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2015/February/05/Fresh-Skyhawks-for-CAP

This surprises me. Apparently, CAP is moving away from search and rescue and beginning to concentrate more heavily on teaching aviation and STEM to youngsters.

 

[Clark1961]

The rumour I heard was that the CAP photo missions were going away - replaced by drones. The result is that CAP has to pursue other missions. Maybe this is just a local thing.

 

[josephbelt01]

I don't have any inside experience with CAP, but I have seen these kids managing traffic, directing parking lots, posted at first aid stations with bottled water, and things of that nature at air shows. As far as I know they're all volunteers outside in 90 degree heat when they could be inside playing Nintendo or wannabe gangsta at the mall. I don't understand why anyone would do anything other than say, "Thanks for being here. Great job." I was active duty USAF SERE about 10 years ago and the cadets don't bother me one bit. What's the beef?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ClimbnSink]

My guess is this is CAP trying to remain relevant(406 ELTS and drones killing their mission.) I used to fly cadets in the CAP glider program. I hope if they are buying more towplanes they will be upping the program as it was all cadets could get 5 flights free or travel to a weeklong glider camp and pay(cheap) for more. We used a local towplane owner/pilot. Much preferred that to an occasional CAP tow pilot without soaring dedication/experience. Good/experienced tow pilots are a joy, plus faster at turning around. But yeah mostly a waste, mostly full of people that ain't a joy to be around.

 

[Vance Breese]

When they try to issue me orders in a commanding voice, they get my full redress.

I feel that says more about you then them.

I don't see the value in your "full redress" of a youth that is trying to manage an unruly adult.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

If they actually teach the young cap members how to fly gliders it would be a great experience for them! If the gliders are hogged by the old guard then it's very wasteful.

 

[murphey]

The rumour I heard was that the CAP photo missions were going away - replaced by drones. The result is that CAP has to pursue other missions. Maybe this is just a local thing.

Don't know about other places. In Colorado, an increase in State emergency services funding resulted in the Firewatch program ( state-wide program coordinating lots of local and state organization) buying 2 Pilatuses (Pilati?) with IR equipment that will cruise about 25k along with other goodies. So I can see the Pilatus heavily used during the 6-7 months of fireseason. But no one has explained what they will be used for in the off season........

As for CAP, it's had an RC cadet program for decades. And rocketry. And gliders.
Cadets can get their glider license incredily cheap- books, exams & tests are the only cost. Adult members have to pay for the tow.

 

[Henning]

I feel that says more about you then them.

I don't see the value in your "full redress" of a youth that is trying to manage an unruly adult.

I see full value of making sure this child does not think that he has any authority over me by his being in a uniform. He is in no position whatsoever to issue any command as such, and that when performing a public service duty he would do well to mind his manners and use a respectful tone of voice.

Yes, if parents won't teach their children respect, I have no problem introducing them to it, if CAP does nothing about it, again I will when it comes to me.

 

[Vance Breese]

I see full value of making sure this child does not think that he has any authority over me by his being in a uniform. He is in no position whatsoever to issue any command as such, and that when performing a public service duty he would do well to mind his manners and use a respectful tone of voice.

Yes, if parents won't teach their children respect, I have no problem introducing them to it, if CAP does nothing about it, again I will when it comes to me.

I suspect that most of the youth will write off your “full redress” as some annoying old man who will not follow directions and thinks he has more power than he does.

I feel it is doubtful that you have taught them anything.

In my opinion you are on shaky ground when you bully a youth.

 

[N801BH]

I feel that says more about you then them.

I don't see the value in your "full redress" of a youth that is trying to manage an unruly adult.

Define (unruly adult).....

 

[Henning]

I suspect that most of the youth will write off your “full redress” as some annoying old man who will not follow directions and thinks he has more power than he does.

I feel it is doubtful that you have taught them anything.

In my opinion you are on shaky ground when you bully a youth.

I don't bully them, my full redress attacks the core of their conscience. I make them question their humanity and place within it.

 

[Vance Breese]

Define (unruly adult).....

Unruly adult: not easily managed adult.

 

[Henning]

Unruly adult: not easily managed adult.

I require no management that you very much, I manage myself quite well.

 

[murphey]

If they actually teach the young cap members how to fly gliders it would be a great experience for them! If the gliders are hogged by the old guard then it's very wasteful.

In Colorado very few of the adults re interested in gliders. The folks who instruct and tow have been doing this for decades.

If the cadets go overboard at airshows and such, blame the adult members for not teaching them properly, blame the parents for not requiring courtesy at home. Remember that at an airshow, their job is safety. Keeping people away from aircraft movement areas. Most of us know better, but the general public doesn't understand that just because there's nothing on that big lane of concrete, you can't cut across. An airplane might be landing right there.

I fly EAA Young Eagles. We have a roped off area on the ramp for people to watch. But we also have the policy for our ground crew that if anyone manages to wanders outside the area, and looks like they are heading for the aircraft without an escort, feel free to tackle them. We'd rather have a lawsuit for injuries than a death. No, we don't have any involvement with CAP at the rallyes. But we fly scouts - boy, girl and sea.

 

[N801BH]

Unruly adult: not easily managed adult.

And WHO determines that adult is not easily managed????

Some 10 year old snot nosed kid in a military style uniform??..

 

[Vance Breese]

I don't bully them, my full redress attacks the core of their conscience. I make them question their humanity.

The Encarta Dictionary that is a part of my word processor defines Bully as an aggressive person who intimidates or mistreats weaker people. I feel it is an appropriate word to describe your behavior

In my opinion; based on what I have read on the Pilots of America message board it is unlikely your “attack” causes them to “question their humanity.”

I feel it is doubtful that you affect their behavior in any way.

 

[N801BH]

The Encarta Dictionary that is a part of my word processor defines Bully as an aggressive person who intimidates or mistreats weaker people. I feel it is an appropriate word to describe your behavior

In my opinion; based on what I have read on the Pilots of America message board it is unlikely your “attack” causes them to “question their humanity.”

I feel it is doubtful that you affect their behavior in any way.

That is ONE scary thought......

 

[Vance Breese]

And WHO determines that adult is not easily managed????

Some 10 year old snot nosed kid in a military style uniform??..

In this case someone who is trying to carry out the instructions of the event organizer.

Most cadets I have talked to are older than ten.

 

[Witmo]

In Colorado very few of the adults re interested in gliders. The folks who instruct and tow have been doing this for decades.

If the cadets go overboard at airshows and such, blame the adult members for not teaching them properly, blame the parents for not requiring courtesy at home. Remember that at an airshow, their job is safety. Keeping people away from aircraft movement areas. Most of us know better, but the general public doesn't understand that just because there's nothing on that big lane of concrete, you can't cut across. An airplane might be landing right there.

I fly EAA Young Eagles. We have a roped off area on the ramp for people to watch. But we also have the policy for our ground crew that if anyone manages to wanders outside the area, and looks like they are heading for the aircraft without an escort, feel free to tackle them. We'd rather have a lawsuit for injuries than a death. No, we don't have any involvement with CAP at the rallyes. But we fly scouts - boy, girl and sea.

If I had a bad experience with a cadet (I haven't), I would seek out the adult supervision and make my complaint. Every civilian outranks every cadet so if they're not respectful and saying Sir/Maam, I'm thinking the adult supervision is due for a dressing down from me. I'm chief tow pilot for a glider club and we fly cadets frequently. They're a joy to introduce to flying and many go on to get certificated.

 

[weilke]

If they actually teach the young cap members how to fly gliders it would be a great experience for them! If the gliders are hogged by the old guard then it's very wasteful.

Getting cadets to show up for their free orientation rides is like pulling teeth. Those who get all their rides frequently move on to a acholarship for solo-school in the next spring. For the most part, the 'old guard' gives their time on sunday mornings for the cadets to get their rides.

 

[Henning]

The Encarta Dictionary that is a part of my word processor defines Bully as an aggressive person who intimidates or mistreats weaker people. I feel it is an appropriate word to describe your behavior

In my opinion; based on what I have read on the Pilots of America message board it is unlikely your “attack” causes them to “question their humanity.”

I feel it is doubtful that you affect their behavior in any way.

Well then by your definition I just stood my ground to an underage bully just starting out on their path. When a kid believes they have authority over me by right of a uniform, there is a problem in their training for life, I am merely providing corrective action.

 

[Vance Breese]

Well then by your definition I just stood my ground to an underage bully just starting out on their path. When a kid believes they have authority over me by right of a uniform, there is a problem in their training for life, I am merely providing corrective action.

Your interpretation and use of “my” (Encarta’s) definition doesn’t work because you are stronger.

You have the power in the situation so it is not possible for the cadet to bully you.

In my opinion imagining that the cadet felt he had authority over you because of the uniform is a stretch.

He has probably received some instruction on how to manage what he has been tasked with and that may involve exercising authority.

Your actions make his tasks more difficult and may make him less likely to volunteer in the future.

In my opinion if you want to make a difference speak to his supervisor if you feel you have a better way to manage his task.

If you don’t find satisfaction in that; speak to the event organizers or volunteer to manage the tasks yourself.

I am grateful for the volunteers and try to encourage them to volunteer again.

 

[MAKG1]

The rumour I heard was that the CAP photo missions were going away - replaced by drones. The result is that CAP has to pursue other missions. Maybe this is just a local thing.

I truly doubt that drones are a cost effective replacement for an aircrew, except perhaps inside a TFR with all other traffic excluded. NASA has done some experiments with wildfires and other unmanned photorecon, and many of the missions have been migrating to manned jets like the G-III and Google Alphajet because they are cheaper to operate. Basically, if you need to chase a drone with a manned aircraft, you might as well just use the manned aircraft.

CAWG is currently undergoing a big push to qualify airborne photography crews, and I've flown half a dozen missions myself since qualifying as observer last summer. The rumors are that a big push to survey drought effects is coming. The trend seems completely in the opposite direction from what you say.

CAP has a qualification for drone operator, but I've yet to see any training for it.

 

[MAKG1]

If they actually teach the young cap members how to fly gliders it would be a great experience for them! If the gliders are hogged by the old guard then it's very wasteful.

Why not research before you criticize? CAP adults don't get free stick time except in the context of funded missions. For gliders, the only funded missions are for flying cadets under 18. Adults can use the gliders, but they have to pay for tows and always get second priority.

There are some legitimate criticisms about waste here, but no one has touched on them. Like, a new 172 is not a good choice for a tow plane. Our group uses an old beat up Cherokee 235, a much better choice at a substantially cheaper price.

Now, a dual use 172, also used for ES is another story (though CAP ES equipment weighs 150 lb and a G1000 weighs another 150 over steam, so it's really hard for me to understand how a 172 can carry a crew of 3 -- nevertheless, many eastern wings do seem to be migrating in that direction).

 

[MAKG1]

In this case someone who is trying to carry out the instructions of the event organizer.

Most cadets I have talked to are older than ten.

The minimum age is 12, so it's a good bet they ALL are.

The cadet leadership is generally significantly older than that.

 

[MAKG1]

Getting cadets to show up for their free orientation rides is like pulling teeth. Those who get all their rides frequently move on to a acholarship for solo-school in the next spring. For the most part, the 'old guard' gives their time on sunday mornings for the cadets to get their rides.

BTDT, and that's been my experience as well. Only the most motivated cadets show up, and those that do have amazing experiences.

It amazes me that so many on this board wring hands about how GA is dying and then go attack a program intended to introduce kids to flying. It's a much more elaborate program than EAA's, with at least 5 powered and 5 glider rides for each cadet, and a fairly standard informal flight training syllabus.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Oh sure we can fix any hobby with enough government money. I hear surfing is lagging can get CAP to sponsor surfing lessons?

BTDT, and that's been my experience as well. Only the most motivated cadets show up, and those that do have amazing experiences.

It amazes me that so many on this board wring hands about how GA is dying and then go attack a program intended to introduce kids to flying. It's a much more elaborate program than EAA's, with at least 5 powered and 5 glider rides for each cadet, and a fairly standard informal flight training syllabus.

 

[MAKG1]

Oh sure we can fix any hobby with enough government money. I hear surfing is lagging can get CAP to sponsor surfing lessons?

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Given any kids intro rides or free training lately? Or do you consider it enough to attack those who do?

 

[ClimbnSink]

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Given any kids intro rides or free training lately? Or do you consider it enough to attack those who do?

Yes I have. CAP cadet glider rides are not a solution, and certainly not one that justifies the expenditure of precious gov't money. Unless when they aren't towing cadets we can use those tow planes to spot German Uboats.

 

[MAKG1]

Yes I have. CAP cadet glider rides are not a solution, and certainly not one that justifies the expenditure of precious gov't money. Unless when they aren't towing cadets we can use those tow planes to spot German Uboats.

Hmm, you don't seem to understand the cadet program at all, so on what basis do you claim that it is not a solution? Having participated in it as an adult supervisor, it sure looks like a solution to me.

Just because it cost you a thousandth of a cent each year to give every cadet who wants it five tows? Or because it doesn't solve the whole problem? Do you have any better ideas?

Given the choice of airplane, it sure looks like an ES resource with a tow hook on it. Don't take AOPA too literally as a source of information. They don't know the difference between hobby piston drivers and multi-turbines, for instance.

 

[bflynn]

Why not research before you criticize? CAP adults don't get free stick time except in the context of funded missions. For gliders, the only funded missions are for flying cadets under 18. Adults can use the gliders, but they have to pay for tows and always get second priority.

There are some legitimate criticisms about waste here, but no one has touched on them. Like, a new 172 is not a good choice for a tow plane. Our group uses an old beat up Cherokee 235, a much better choice at a substantially cheaper price.

It might be a good choice technically, but CAP doesn't have many Cherokee pilots. It does have a lot of pilots familiar with Cessnas. The 172 might be designated as a tow plane, but it could be retasked if needed for emergency management work. A low wing Cherokee makes an inferior platform.

 

[ClimbnSink]

I was a CFIG working in the cadet glider program. I know exactly what it is, a nonsolution. It does nothing except amuse kids for a day or two. We should be teaching these kids to surf on the gov'ts dime.

Hmm, you don't seem to understand the cadet program at all, so on what basis do you claim that it is not a solution? Having participated in it as an adult supervisor, it sure looks like a solution to me.

Just because it cost you a thousandth of a cent each year to give every cadet who wants it five tows? Or because it doesn't solve the whole problem? Do you have any better ideas?

Given the choice of airplane, it sure looks like an ES resource with a tow hook on it. Don't take AOPA too literally as a source of information. They don't know the difference between hobby piston drivers and multi-turbines, for instance.

 

[Henning]

Your interpretation and use of “my” (Encarta’s) definition doesn’t work because you are stronger.

You have the power in the situation so it is not possible for the cadet to bully you.

In my opinion imagining that the cadet felt he had authority over you because of the uniform is a stretch.

He has probably received some instruction on how to manage what he has been tasked with and that may involve exercising authority.

Your actions make his tasks more difficult and may make him less likely to volunteer in the future.

In my opinion if you want to make a difference speak to his supervisor if you feel you have a better way to manage his task.

If you don’t find satisfaction in that; speak to the event organizers or volunteer to manage the tasks yourself.

I am grateful for the volunteers and try to encourage them to volunteer again.

It does work however because he incorrectly perceived himself to be stronger by being uniformed and under instruction and fell he could issue me an order and confront me as an authority. He was incorrect, I corrected him, he got educated, so did his posse.

 

[kgruber]

Those CAP cadets should stay at home. All they do is cause damage and trouble at airshows.

http://youtu.be/16QMQXIjYVU

 

[Henning]

Those CAP cadets should stay at home. All they do is cause damage and trouble at airshows.

http://youtu.be/16QMQXIjYVU

I didn't watch the whole thing, but isn't that the guy who did the Stanford Prison Experiment?

 

[weilke]

It might be a good choice technically, but CAP doesn't have many Cherokee pilots. It does have a lot of pilots familiar with Cessnas. The 172 might be designated as a tow plane, but it could be retasked if needed for emergency management work. A low wing Cherokee makes an inferior platform.

The reality is that many wings dont have much of an emergency services mission. There are so many state and county choppers that need work that calls to CAP are a once a year thing. CAP already has 172s scattered around the country, if a wing needs a plane mostly for the cadet related activities, a 172 is probably a better use of money than a 182.

 

[Vance Breese]

It does work however because he incorrectly perceived himself to be stronger by being uniformed and under instruction and fell he could issue me an order and confront me as an authority. He was incorrect, I corrected him, he got educated, so did his posse.

At the recent Cable air show pilot’s briefing Bob Cable asked everyone to keep nonessential personnel on the other side of the rope barrier. He had a long list of all the people who were nonessential.

My wife (Ed) is considered essential because she helps with my preflight list and pushes me out past the no props spinning line so I can start the engine.

This is a part of what the FAA requires in order to issue a waiver for an air show and necessary so that things don’t go missing out of the performers aircraft.

At my request my Ed went to get something out of the aircraft that was on the other side of the rope barrier and she was stopped by a Civil Air Patrol Cadet who told her she needed to have a performer’s badge.

He was trying to do his job and my wife bullied him into letting her go by pointing out that none of the crew had badges using the mom voice.

I talked to him later and thanked him for protecting my aircraft and making the show possible.

I don’t think that he or his friends felt that the uniform gave him the power to boss people around although I did not ask specifically. He did ask me why some people did not cooperate.

I showed Ed this thread and she admitted she had bullied the cadet rather than talking to the ramp boss because it was easier to bully the cadet.

She has promised to try to be more sensitive and appreciative of volunteers at future air shows.

It was entirely my fault because I had sent Ed on a mission without the tools and knowledge to accomplish the mission because I was too busy eating my chicken kabob and I had left my hat in the aircraft. I too will try to have better situational awareness at future airshows.

I have not seen a better way to manage the situation at aviation events and I am grateful for all the volunteers including the Civil Air Patrol.

There are bound to be people at an aviation event who don’t want to follow the rules and it is unfortunate that they feel they have to abuse the volunteers to aggrandize their self image.

Justifying bullying a young volunteer by pretending that the cadet had a bad attitude because he thought that the uniform gave him authority and pretending that the cadet learned an important life lesson is an insight into the malefactor’s personality.

I suspect there are cadets in uniform who abuse their perceived power although I have not encountered them.

I have seen them escalate when their mission is threatened by a persistent miscreant and they do not have the tools to manage the situation.

Thank you for helping me to improve my situational awareness and remember how powerless I felt as a youth.

It is raining here in Nipomo, California so I am not flying.

I will go back to working on my lesson plans now.

 

[N801BH]

At the recent Cable air show pilot’s briefing Bob Cable asked everyone to keep nonessential personnel on the other side of the rope barrier. He had a long list of all the people who were nonessential.

My wife (Ed) is considered essential because she helps with my preflight list and pushes me out past the no props spinning line so I can start the engine.

This is a part of what the FAA requires in order to issue a waiver for an air show and necessary so that things don’t go missing out of the performers aircraft.

At my request my Ed went to get something out of the aircraft that was on the other side of the rope barrier and she was stopped by a Civil Air Patrol Cadet who told her she needed to have a performer’s badge.

He was trying to do his job and my wife bullied him into letting her go by pointing out that none of the crew had badges using the mom voice.

I talked to him later and thanked him for protecting my aircraft and making the show possible.

I don’t think that he or his friends felt that the uniform gave him the power to boss people around although I did not ask specifically. He did ask me why some people did not cooperate.

I showed Ed this thread and she admitted she had bullied the cadet rather than talking to the ramp boss because it was easier to bully the cadet.

She has promised to try to be more sensitive and appreciative of volunteers at future air shows.

It was entirely my fault because I had sent Ed on a mission without the tools and knowledge to accomplish the mission because I was too busy eating my chicken kabob and I had left my hat in the aircraft. I too will try to have better situational awareness at future airshows.

I have not seen a better way to manage the situation at aviation events and I am grateful for all the volunteers including the Civil Air Patrol.

There are bound to be people at an aviation event who don’t want to follow the rules and it is unfortunate that they feel they have to abuse the volunteers to aggrandize their self image.

Justifying bullying a young volunteer by pretending that the cadet had a bad attitude because he thought that the uniform gave him authority and pretending that the cadet learned an important life lesson is an insight into the malefactor’s personality.

I suspect there are cadets in uniform who abuse their perceived power although I have not encountered them.

I have seen them escalate when their mission is threatened by a persistent miscreant and they do not have the tools to manage the situation.

Thank you for helping me to improve my situational awareness and remember how powerless I felt as a youth.

It is raining here in Nipomo, California so I am not flying.

I will go back to working on my lesson plans now.

I sense Bull *hit.....

I assume your wife (ED) and you have been to numerous airshows as you brag about your gyrocopter flying in airshows all the time...

(Ed), your wife, used a her "mom"voice to con some little kid.. You are joking, right..

You left your hat in your whirley bird.. You should have retrieved it yourself. Be a man......

Is (Ed) there to make sure to go through your checklist properly.?..

You are one excuse after another.......

Fly safe buddy... And don't kill (Ed) during your airshows.....


Carry on.....

 

[ClimbnSink]

The cadet couldn't keep a lady from stealing a hat, what good can they be? Cadets at airshows are the community theater version of security theatre. Such a great opportunity. Some of those cadets will go on to play security theater on the big airport.

 

[N801BH]

The cadet couldn't keep a lady from stealing a hat, what good can they be? Cadets at airshows are the community theater version of security theatre. Such a great opportunity. Some of those cadets will go on to play security theater on the big airport.

And grow up to be head of the DHS..............