Can the Garmin GTN's have approaches to multiple airports in flight plan?

FORANE

FORANE

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FORANE
One of the major weaknesses, at least for me, of the old Garmin 430 is the inability to enter approaches at intermediate airports in the flight plan.
My home airport has a very high MDA due to mountains in the traffic pattern. As such, I frequently find that I have to fly the missed. The alternate with an ILS is only about 12 miles away. I believe it is a safety of flight issue to have to wrestle with the GPS while flying the missed when I know where I plan to go before flying the first approach.
So, did Garmin fix this issue with the GTN series? Can more than one airport be in the flight plan with the ability to select an approach at the intermediate airport?
 
No. In all the Garmin units (including the 430/530, GTNs and the 1000) the APPROACH and ARRIVAL procedures are magic things that are inserted automatically at the end of your flight plan. You can't insert them otherwise.

The 480 is unique in that it lets you set an alternate in the PROC screen, but it only takes an airport not the arrival approach. It just sticks a discontinuous D-> leg after the missed approach procedure.

In all the cases, you're pretty much going to have to push the PROC key (or whatever it is on the unit) and set a new DESTINATION and ARRIVAL/APPROACH when you divert to your alternate.
 
It's just one of those situations where a little extra training/practice may be necessary. It is a little convoluted to have to choose a new airport/approach while enroute on a flight plan. But if you're having to wrestle with it, spend a bit more time learning how to do it.
 
And that is by design isn't it. Unless your destination only has one approach you don't know which approach you will be flying till you get there.
 
tmyers said:
And that is by design isn't it. Unless your destination only has one approach you don't know which approach you will be flying till you get there.
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Not true the vast majority of time I fly into my home field. Also, I would be somewhat happier if Garmin allowed at least entering an alternate airport in the plan but cannot do it.
 
Agreed, that an Alternate AP entry would be great to have during a portion of your flight where the workload is high.
 
Use a second GPS that has the approach database. Just remember which one you are flying! :eek:
 
tmyers said:
Agreed, that an Alternate AP entry would be great to have during a portion of your flight where the workload is high.
Click to expand...

Would be nice to be able to add it to your FP, so that you could quickly find it.

That said, it's never been too much of a hassle to either use DIRECT to the alternate and then pull up the approach, or to append it to the end of the flight plan and then put in any other stuff beforehand.

normally, on a missed approach, I don't bother messing with nav systems until I'm at a relatively low workload - either on my way to the holding point, or established in the hold, or on a vector after working out the plan with ATC. I've never had a problem, either I have the time to get stuff ready, or I ask ATC for the time - and they give me a vector (or a hold if they need to, but that hasn't happened yet).

I'll caveat the above with the fact that my flying in these situations has been at less than 200 KIAS.
 
tmyers said:
And that is by design isn't it. Unless your destination only has one approach you don't know which approach you will be flying till you get there.
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That's not the only purpose for it having more than one in the flight plan. Here's a common training and potential real life scenario:

You have just gone missed and are in the MAHold. You decide a different approach to the same airport would be a better option. The IAF for the other approach is very close to the MAHold, so you don't have a lot of time to set up Direct to the new IAF, remove the current approach and load the new one.

The way the Garmins (except perhaps the 480) currently work, you cannot load the second approach while the current approach remains active; you can only activate it as a replacement. That means, for example, you can't set up for the second and keep the MAHold as an active waypoint with the next approach ready to go.

There are some work-arounds, but none of them are particularly satisfying (to me anyway).
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's not the only purpose for it having more than one in the flight plan. Here's a common training and potential real life scenario:



You have just gone missed and are in the MAHold. You decide a different approach to the same airport would be a better option. The IAF for the other approach is very close to the MAHold, so you don't have a lot of time to set up Direct to the new IAF, remove the current approach and load the new one.



The way the Garmins (except perhaps the 480) currently work, you cannot load the second approach while the current approach remains active; you can only activate it as a replacement. That means, for example, you can't set up for the second and keep the MAHold as an active waypoint with the next approach ready to go.



There are some work-arounds, but none of them are particularly satisfying (to me anyway).
Click to expand...


That's Garmin's marketing strategy --- why you need to buy a second Garmin GPS. ;)

Anyone checkout the new BK 770 with regards to how this works?
 
flyingron said:
No. In all the Garmin units (including the 430/530, GTNs and the 1000) the APPROACH and ARRIVAL procedures are magic things that are inserted automatically at the end of your flight plan. You can't insert them otherwise.

The 480 is unique in that it lets you set an alternate in the PROC screen, but it only takes an airport not the arrival approach. It just sticks a discontinuous D-> leg after the missed approach procedure.

In all the cases, you're pretty much going to have to push the PROC key (or whatever it is on the unit) and set a new DESTINATION and ARRIVAL/APPROACH when you divert to your alternate.
Click to expand...

The G-1000 will let you do exactly that. There is no discontinuity message either provided you set up the alternate airport IAP once you have the missed approach well under way.
 
Although the Garmin GNS430W/530W don't permit loading two approaches simultaneously, you can put two airports into your flightplan. When you go thru the select approach dialog, you can choose either airport to load an approach from. To me it is more work than just using direct-to, select your alternate from the nearest list, activate it, then load the approach.

If the approach at the new airport you are planning on using is a WAAS approach (LPV or LP), you can load it directly by choosing the WAAS Channel in the select approach dialog. To do this with an approach already loaded at your home airport, press PROC, then MENU twice, then move the cursor to "Select Appr Chnl?", enter, then enter the Approach Channel. The WAAS channel is on the approach chart of all the WAAS approaches (LPV or LP) in the upper left hand corner of the chart.
 
Marauder said:
That's Garmin's marketing strategy --- why you need to buy a second Garmin GPS. ;)

Anyone checkout the new BK 770 with regards to how this works?
Click to expand...
At the price point of these panel mount GPS/nav/com boxes, it should be buy one get one free. Not going to happen and I don't have panel space for 2 boxes anyway without a major rework which would include going to remote transponder, intercom, etc.

Don't know about the BK770 but the Avidyne IFD series allows for selection of approach at intermediate airport in plan. Hopefully we will see one or both of these units manage to get certified and to market soon.


John Collins said:
Although the Garmin GNS430W/530W don't permit loading two approaches simultaneously, you can put two airports into your flightplan. When you go thru the select approach dialog, you can choose either airport to load an approach from. To me it is more work than just using direct-to, select your alternate from the nearest list, activate it, then load the approach.

If the approach at the new airport you are planning on using is a WAAS approach (LPV or LP), you can load it directly by choosing the WAAS Channel in the select approach dialog. To do this with an approach already loaded at your home airport, press PROC, then MENU twice, then move the cursor to "Select Appr Chnl?", enter, then enter the Approach Channel. The WAAS channel is on the approach chart of all the WAAS approaches (LPV or LP) in the upper left hand corner of the chart.
Click to expand...
Ahh, didn't know this. So I could enter the alternate beforehand in the plan and select at least my first approach. This sounds like an improvement over my 430.
 
FORANE said:
Ahh, didn't know this. So I could enter the alternate beforehand in the plan and select at least my first approach. This sounds like an improvement over my 430.
Click to expand...

The first technique of putting the destination followed by the alternate will work on the Legacy GNS430/530. The WAAS Chnl obviously only works with the WAAS version and only if the approach is a WAAS approach (LPV or LP). For me, in your situation, I would rather just put your destination airport into the GNS430 flightplan and use the Direct-to dialog with the nearest airport feature to select the alternate. If you provide me with the identifier for your home airport in the mountains and the nearby alternate, I will post an example of what I am talking about?
 
I just tried this on my 750 and while not quite what you described, I was able to enter two destination airports as waypoints. The first was for Van Nuys and after that Burbank. When on the VOR approach into Van Nuys I was able to change the destination to Burbank by punching it up and then hit the procedure button. The procedure page automatically inserted Burbank and brought up the various approaches to choose from.

So I guess the long and short of it is that if you feel you may go missed and have to divert, place the alternate at the bottom of the list for easy access at the start of the flight to minimize entry during what's going to be a busy time.
 
the400kid said:
I just tried this on my 750 and while not quite what you described, I was able to enter two destination airports as waypoints. The first was for Van Nuys and after that Burbank. When on the VOR approach into Van Nuys I was able to change the destination to Burbank by punching it up and then hit the procedure button. The procedure page automatically inserted Burbank and brought up the various approaches to choose from.

So I guess the long and short of it is that if you feel you may go missed and have to divert, place the alternate at the bottom of the list for easy access at the start of the flight to minimize entry during what's going to be a busy time.
Click to expand...

Not faulting you particularly.

But, punching buttons in the KVNY-KBUR area seems a bit like texting while driving.
 
John Collins said:
The first technique of putting the destination followed by the alternate will work on the Legacy GNS430/530. The WAAS Chnl obviously only works with the WAAS version and only if the approach is a WAAS approach (LPV or LP). For me, in your situation, I would rather just put your destination airport into the GNS430 flightplan and use the Direct-to dialog with the nearest airport feature to select the alternate. If you provide me with the identifier for your home airport in the mountains and the nearby alternate, I will post an example of what I am talking about?
Click to expand...

Home airport is 0A9 Elizabethton, TN
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1313/09816R6.PDF
Alternate is KTRI Tri Cities TN
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1313/00426IL23.PDF
0A9 only has 1 gps approach, typically diversion is to ILS 23 at KTRI.
Typically I start getting vectors to the ILS prior to CABYA hold.
The approach at 0A9 is not authorized at night due to the nearby terrain and in fact they will not leave the lights on pilot control unless a pilot has been checked out by the FBO for night ops at the field.

Just today I bought a GTN 650 for the RV. I have zero experience with the GTN or waas approaches. The Lancair will keep the old 430 for a while as I wait on Avidyne to get the IFD series certified.
 
aterpster said:
Not faulting you particularly.

But, punching buttons in the KVNY-KBUR area seems a bit like texting while driving.
Click to expand...

Huh?

If you had to go missed with a 530W and go to your alternate on the fly that would be easier?

With the GTN the change I described took two button punches and it was set for the approach into Burbank. The setup for the approach into Burbank was completed in less than 10 seconds.
 
Even without the dubious alternate function of the 480, it's D->DEST to go direct to your alternate then PROC to pic the approach at that airport. In fact, I typically don't press PROC until I'm fairly close to the destination anyhow. Even my home field has GPS approaches to both ends so depending on the winds and the routing, I don't know which one I want or will be assigned.
 
its not really that much button pushing. you just need to press SUSP to initiate the missed. you said you usually get vectors prior to reaching CABYA, so if you know that you will most lilkey go missed on the approach at your home field, set you alternate airport as another waypoint in your flight plan prior to coming back to the field. while getting vectors just hit direct to alternate and procedure and load up the ILS. if its too much just forget about the gps. you dont need it for an ILS
 
Maybe this isn't the right way to look at this, but I don't want multiple approaches in the flight plan.

I am always trying to eliminate anything that isn't immediately relevant to the flight. When I am in cruise I will pull the plate for the alternate, look over the plate, and determine the location from the primary if I don't already know it. After that I put it out of my mind and focus on the approach at hand. I have a G1000 and I am pretty fast using it. I can load an approach, set minimums, etc. in a minute or two. It just isn't a big deal time wise or that taxing mentally.

The cons (possibly making a mistake with multiple approaches loaded) out weight the pros (saving two minutes or less of data entry) IMO.
 
Here is the example using the direct-to dialog technique to load an approach at a nearby airport. I used the GNS430W trainer, but it works identically for the GNS430.

On the approach to 0A9:
on approach to 0A9.jpg

Press Direct-to to open dialog:
press direct-to to open dialog.jpg

Move cursor to nearest airport field:
move cursor to nearest airport field.jpg

Select TRI:
select TRI.jpg

Press Enter:
press enter.jpg

Now that you are direct to TRI press PROC to load approach:
now that ur direct to TRI press PROC.jpg

Choose your approach at TRI
choose your approach at TRI.jpg
 
John Collins said:
Here is the example using the direct-to dialog technique to load an approach at a nearby airport. I used the GNS430W trainer, but it works identically for the GNS430.

On the approach to 0A9:
View attachment 32811
Of course I do not do this until after the approach is missed.
Press Direct-to to open dialog:
View attachment 32812

Move cursor to nearest airport field:
View attachment 32813
I was not familiar with selecting a nearest here so that is helpful.
Select TRI:
View attachment 32814

Press Enter:
View attachment 32815

Now that you are direct to TRI press PROC to load approach:
View attachment 32816
I am familiar with this.
Choose your approach at TRI
View attachment 32817
Click to expand...
Of course all this still has to occur while flying the missed. Thus the gps screen does not display where I need to go and I am otherwise occupied with what in a car would be considered as one post stated earlier "texting while driving" all while at low altitude in the mountains.
At least with the ILS, I can have it set up ahead of time other than turning the OBS to the correct heading.

Thank you for taking the time to post this.
 
My main point is that without the need to have the approach at an airport loaded in advance, it is a relatively simple matter of using the direct-to dialog followed by the PROC dialog. My post was to illustrate the technique and not to precisely simulate where it would be used.

Direct-to, PROC, simple.
 
You need some serious work on your IFR procedures if you can't select a new destination or routing while flying. It happens to me more often than real missed approaches. It's not uncommon to have a reroute from departure right after takeoff.
 
And if you are really that busy flying the missed, fly the damn missed and figure out where you're going next when the workload drops.

As I said in the beginning of the thread, I don't worry about finding my way to my alternate until I'm at a low workload point on the missed. Sometimes that happens quickly, but at other times (say KCBE or KOKV where mountains come into play) it doesn't happen until I'm at the hold or at least the holding altitude.
 
flyingron said:
You need some serious work on your IFR procedures if you can't select a new destination or routing while flying. It happens to me more often than real missed approaches. It's not uncommon to have a reroute from departure right after takeoff.
Click to expand...
I didn't think the simple 2-step of heading to an alternate and then loading the approach for it was the big issue. I thought it was whether the advanced Garmin avionics have a not-so advanced ability (they don't) of allowing you to load the next approach while continuing to depict the missed on the first one.
 
On the 480, you don't replace the active one with the one you're editing until you push EXEC.

Actually to answer the original question, while you can't store multiple approaches in a single plan, you can store multiple plans in the catalog. It's then pretty easy to replace the active one with one of the stored ones.
 
TMetzinger said:
And if you are really that busy flying the missed, fly the damn missed and figure out where you're going next when the workload drops.

As I said in the beginning of the thread, I don't worry about finding my way to my alternate until I'm at a low workload point on the missed. Sometimes that happens quickly, but at other times (say KCBE or KOKV where mountains come into play) it doesn't happen until I'm at the hold or at least the holding altitude.
Click to expand...

Not to mention terrain might be an issue on quite a few approaches. So fly the missed to near completion before worrying about the alternate.
 
flyingron said:
You need some serious work on your IFR procedures if you can't select a new destination or routing while flying. It happens to me more often than real missed approaches. It's not uncommon to have a reroute from departure right after takeoff.
Click to expand...

Agreed
 
Interesting. Garmin doesn't have a secondary flight plan or an Alternate page?

I'm use to flying FMS (Honeywell and Thales) and that's just standard stuff. I wouldn't think software wise it would be that big of a deal.
 
No, but what I've done when I have been expecting the need for my alternate is to put in my flight plan, then store a new flight plan that contains only the DEST and ALTN airports.

Easy enough to activate when needed.
 
flyingron said:
You need some serious work on your IFR procedures if you can't select a new destination or routing while flying. It happens to me more often than real missed approaches. It's not uncommon to have a reroute from departure right after takeoff.
Click to expand...
Perhaps this is the case. I am just a 1000 hour private instrument pilot who does this to commute home or to work; this is not my primary employment. I have been instrument rated for the better part of 10 years and have a reputation at my home field for flying when no one else is going out. I have been into a towered field after dark and been told they all came out to watch me land because I was the first plane in all day due to the conditions. I am not so presumptuous however to think I would not benefit from further training.
As much as I think about it though I have to believe it would be safer to have this sort of thing entered in the gps during a lower workload portion of the flight; how could it not be? I have been doing it so it seems that I am capable of doing it; I would just prefer to be able to be ahead of the game. Perhaps this is somewhat related to my personality, I have always been the type to want to be ahead of anything I do and I see this as no different.
 
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Just get faster with the knobs.
 
This was one of the scant few things that Bendix-King did better than Garmin, but alas Honeywell abandoned all of it's KLN-series GPS users a decade ago, so I finally went 430W. The "fix" is easy. I you want the approaches for any intermediate airport in your flight plan, just highlight that airport and hit direct to, then hit procedure, select approach...done.
 
Marauder said:
Anyone checkout the new BK 770 with regards to how this works?
Click to expand...

Can't speak to the BK 770, but FWIW, the Avidyne IFD boxes allow multiple arrivals/approaches in the flight plan. (1 arrival and 1 approach for each airport in the plan.) Once you're in the hold after going missed, you'll need to press a button to exit the hold and move on to the start of your alternate approach, or alternately you can skip ahead to activate a future leg in the plan if it's not necessary to complete the missed.
 
Jim_R said:
Can't speak to the BK 770, but FWIW, the Avidyne IFD boxes allow multiple arrivals/approaches in the flight plan. (1 arrival and 1 approach for each airport in the plan.) Once you're in the hold after going missed, you'll need to press a button to exit the hold and move on to the start of your alternate approach, or alternately you can skip ahead to activate a future leg in the plan if it's not necessary to complete the missed.
Click to expand...
Yes, I asked the Avidyne folks about this very issue and they confirmed the IFD series has this capability. That was one of the selling points for me to put down a deposit on an IFD440.
 
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